"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger" -Psychic Ability in the PT

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Green_Destiny_Sword, Jul 19, 2006.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    "I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don?t use them."

    This line by Count Dooku really got to me when I watched ROTS for the second time recently. Dooku seems to have no problem reading Anakin's emotions. Palpatine can not only read Anakin's emotions he can actually read Anakin's dreams! (How he does that?? Unexplained. lol).

    Yet the Jedi seem to have no ability to do this. Obi Wan seems to never have any read whatsoever on Anakin. The kid is going through emotion turmoil from AOTC on. He's in love with Padme and trying to mack her, knowing he is violating the Jedi Code. He then fears for his mother's life and is anguished when she dies. And of course goes on that killing spree. And in ROTS he is now married with a baby on the way and shacking with padme, which again would seem to be against the code. Following that his horrific nightmares of her death tthat trauatize him he is teetering on the Dark Side until he just submits. No Jedi ever picked up a hint of this???

    Before someone says "the Darkside clouds everything" remember that the Jedi has NO problem reading Anakin's mind in TPM. They knew he missed his mom, knew he was trouble and Yoda even concluded that training him would be disastrous. Then in AOTC, Yoda seems to pick up a shaky transmission with his psychic powers when Qui Gon is yelling at Anakin during the Tusken slaughter. I assume Yoda didn't know what Anakin actually did since he never spoke to him about it (and never asked either..what a guy!).

    My point in bringing this up is that the psychic abilities the Jedi always seemed to have completely dissapear in the PT. They never have any sense for what each are going through. It just seems wildly inconsistent from the OT when Yoda had no problem reading Luke, Luke could read Vader's thoughts and feelings and Vader could easily read Luke's mind. Luke could even speak to Leia from across the galaxy with telepathy. And it just brought a very exciting and entertaining aspect to the Jedi characters. I think removing this was a big mistake on GL's part and sad that we lost out on this part of the Jedi's abilities.

    So I guess the question is: does it seem like the use of psychic powers by the Jedi suddenly dissapears in the PT? Was it a good idea? Is it consistent with the storyline? Things like that.
  2. Ben R Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2000
    star 4

    On the contrary,

    It happens throughout the ORIGINAL trilogy. Its use in the PT is only being consistent with the old movies:

    * Leia can telepathically communicate with Luke at the end of The Empire Strikes Back.

    * Vader reads Luke's mind to learn that Leia was his sister at the end of Return of the Jedi.

    * The emperor senses Lukes anger and his desire to get his lightsaber back at the end of Return of the Jedi. "I can feel the hate swelling in you now." "You... WANT this... don't you?"

    I could go on and on.
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    In the PT Obi Wan can sense "elusive". Qui Gon sensed fear on the Trade Fed ship. Yoda sensed fear in Anakin. Mace Windu makes the claim that their ability to use the Force is diminished, yet he senses later on that the Darkside surrounds the Chancellor.
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Dooku is goading Anakin on, preying on his insecurities, and trying to get him to use them negatively, whereas the Jedi, equally aware of Anakin's limitations, hold him back until he's ready. There is a push-pull effect between Jedi and Sith. Honestly, some things are not hard to grasp, but some people will jump through hoops to try and assail Lucas' work.
  5. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Dooku is goading Anakin on, preying on his insecurities, and trying to get him to use them negatively, whereas the Jedi, equally aware of Anakin's limitations, hold him back until he's ready. There is a push-pull effect between Jedi and Sith.

    Bingo! =D=
  6. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    it is not that they went blind in this regard but the jedi did miss more and more as time went on.

    Yoda either sensed Anakin's turn or figured it out through deductive reasoning, figuring the death of the choosen one he'd feel through the force. He told Kenobi if he went into the security tapes he'd find pain, an allusion that he knew Anakin did this.

    At the end of AotC Yoda had a moment of clairity where he sensed Kenobi and Skywalker would need his help with Dooku, he may have even sensed where tehy were going though that could have been found by communicator.

    I don't think it's Lucas i think it's Anakin/Vader.

    It seems to me that he can hide what he wishes from even the most powerful force users, Yoda Mace and Sidious. In much the same way that Sidious is able to sit in a room with the Jedi Council and they don't realize he's a Sith Lord, Anakin is able to lie to whoever he wishes, Yoda and the Emporer for example and they cannot read his mind.

    It explains why Yoda had so little to go on and had to ask questions when Anakin came to him for advice and it explains why the Emporer didn't even seem to know what Vader was planning in ESB, though that can be argued.

    It would make sense and lend to character development for Anakin for him to develop such a trait. All of Anakin's force use is extremely casual, his command is as absolute as my command over my hand, and he uses it just as "voluntarily". Anakin also would have been traumatized by his examination and rejection by the council especially the parts where Yoda said "see through you wee can." and Mace's "No he will not be trained" would have left an impression i imagine. If anyone would develop the ability to hide his thoughts and feelings on a subconcious level it's Anakin, he's an outcast in the Jedi whose amazing force potential always manifests itself with an ease that implies an innate mastery.
  7. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    The 'clouding' of the Jedi by the Sith was less of a thick fog and more of a mist. And the mist seemed to work both ways.

    During the Clone Wars, the Jedi seldom had the luxury to team their knights. Anakin was often on his own, and Obi-Wan could not directly sense his former Padawan's most pressing thoughts. In time, Anakin likely learned to effectively mask his most personal thoughts from his masters and peers.

    Dooku, who set up Palpatine's 'capture' to lure Anakin, was merely a catalyst and pawn for Palpatine's long running plan to recruit Anakin. Dooku could not read Palpatine's thougths any more than Yoda could. He was a Sith, and he could not ascertain his master's intentions.

    Yoda and Mace both knew Anakin was acting out of place. This, in part, is why they do not allow him the rank of Master on the Council, and their decision is immediately born out when Anakin erupts with indignation at the 'insult' he was forced to endure.

    Years later in the saga, Vader and Sidious do not sense the where abouts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Not until 'Ben' shows up on the DS does Vader know he's in town. And neither Vader nor Sidious sense that Luke was mostly trained by Yoda. So the clouding seems to go both ways.

    Mace does accurately sense the dark side surrounding Palpatine (not knowing it was in fact surrounding him because it emmanated from him). This, and knowing the confused state of Anakin, led Windu to wisely order Anakin to remain at the Temple once Anakin reveals that Palaptine is the Sith Lord. So Mace's intuition leads him to make the correct interpretation of transpired events. It was Mace's failure to anticipate the power Palpatine possessed over Anakin that led to his untimely demise.
  8. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Palpatine can not only read Anakin's emotions he can actually read Anakin's dreams! (How he does that?? Unexplained. lol).


    There is less physic abilities going on there than you think. Anakin has been confiding to Palps ever since he was ten. He told Palps everything he wouldnt dare tell the Jedi.
  9. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I thought Obi-Wan knew what Anakin was thinking/feeling without too much difficulty, especially in AOTC.

    The depth of feeling, maybe.

    TPM - Ki-Adi "Your thoughts dwell on your mother"

    Yoda "I sense much fear in you".
  10. Dark_Disciple Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 3
    These have to be the biggest, "well duh!" responses of all time. You have this little kid, he's been through quite a bit already, said goodbye to his mother for an extend indefinite period of absence (doesn't know if he's ever gonna see her again), he's on a new planet with strangers looking at him and pontificating about him, and he's embarked on a completely new life, and standing there wondering about his future. Wow, Ki-Adi and Yoda, you guys are so insightful. Sometimes, GL doesn't do the Jedi any favours with lines like that...
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's really simple. Anakin's hiding his feelings, just like Obi-wan instructed Luke in ROTJ. Just like Obi-wan chides Anakin in AOTC. Just as Yoda, Mace and Ki-Adi comment on in TPM. Anakin got away with what he did because he hid his emotions from the Jedi. But during his fights with Dooku, he wasn't trying as hard. Especially their final duel. Anakin has anger and hate for what Dooku has done, and it is scaring him deep down. Because he's afraid to lose control. Dooku can sense his fear and the fact that he's not hiding it. He uses this to his advantage to goad Anakin into attacking him.
  12. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Wow, Ki-Adi and Yoda, you guys are so insightful. Sometimes, GL doesn't do the Jedi any favours with lines like that...

    Wasn't Anakin the one with the dreams of becoming a Jedi? He was not supposed to think of his past and concentrate on the present at hand. The Jedi sense MORE in Anakin than he would have like to reveal. But we as the audience who know what happens to Anakin, can assume easier than the Jedi. GL is NOT selling the Jedi short. In actuality, the Jedi are putting across to Anakin that he should not become fearful because?....Yoda tells him why.
  13. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use it.

    In the movies we only see when Anakin attacks the Tuskens that he has tapped into the dark side. In the clones wars he defeats Ventress with the dark side. But when else has he used the dark side. Count Dooku is sayings he has dark emotions but doesn't use them. Therefore I don't get this rep that Anakin was constantly tapping into the dark side or he had a pattern of this behavior before he turned.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The problem is that Anakin holds back, until he is forced to unleash his anger and hate. He's not actively using his anger and hate from the outset. He holds back until something forces his hand and then he uses them. Dooku's trying to get Anakin to use it actively, instead of trying to restraining himself.

    Yes, but it is making a point. They're testing him still. They're wanting to know if his feelings are genuine and if so, will they be an issue. Yoda then explains why his fear for his mother has a relavence to their conversation about how he feels. Qui-gon tells them a half truth about Anakin, but they want to know everything. And they get it with this conversation.
  15. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    "Remember what you told me about your mother and the sand people."

    Dooku heard it from a realiable source that Anakin Skywalker indeed had hate and anger. It seems that Anakin and Palpatine talked man to man while Anakin and Obi-Wan (And others) talked Jedi to Jedi. There were apparently no repurcussions by the Jedi for Anakin killing the sand people. Perhaps he fabricated a story to tell them. Palpatine....he told Palpatine the truth. Palpatine told Dooku. Dooku just goaded Anakin on. Anakin killed Dooku. Palpatine continued to goad Anakin on. "It's simply. He cut off your arm, and you wanted revenge." No psychic ability needed.

    Carnage
  16. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    but why does Dooku have to hear a story about Anakin? Nothing in the scene suggests that Dooku is making it up or rleaying a story. He says he senses it. And Palps seems to sense everything that is within Anakin.

    There is nothing in the films to indicate that Anakin is hiding his emotions from the Jedi. on the contrary, Anakin is the one character in the PT who constantly wears his emotions on his sleeve. When he gets pissed off at the council, no one sensed the leanings towards the Dark Side within him? no one felt the conflict?? I don't get it.

    One would think that the more powerful or "attuned" to the Force a Jedi is, the easier it would be for them to sense something within another Jedi. But Yoda seems to be clueless about what Anakin is going through.

    And then once again, Yoda seems to have a read on Luke from the onset. I just think the overall use of psychic powers was better in the OT. Once Luke starts getting emotional on DSII, Vader is able to read his feelings and know Leia was his sister. Anakin gets overly emotional all the time and not even the entire council can figure out where his mind is. It's just weak.
  17. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    I think the scene in TPM is very telling. "How feel you?" "Cold Sir" "Afraid, are you?" "Your thoughts dwell on your mother" "See through you we can." "What's that got to do with anything?" "Everything!" That is one of the most intimidating moments in Anakin's life. You are taken to the Mystical Jedi Council and you know they are just looking at what is inside you and picking it apart. I'm sure from that point on, he tried to feel numb when he faced the council. When he was a bit more experienced, he probably turned on the "Shielding" himself thing (As Luke was doing to keep Vader from finding him on DSII). I can't say I blame him. Having others pry at your inner thoughts and feelings seems very.....invasive.

    When he was around Palpatine....hell, who cares, right? Politicians read faces, not minds. Keep calm on the exterior and it doesn't matter what he feels inside in front of Palpatine. He's just a normal guy.

    As far as the Council goes, after the scene where he is angry at the Council, we do see Mace say "I don't think the boy can handle it, I don't trust him." There is some ambiguity in the fact that some people thought Mace was referring to not trusting Palpatine. However, I think it is clear that he didn't trust Anakin. "No. I sense much confusion in you Skywalker. IF what you say is true, you will have regained my trust. Untill then, stay in the council chambers awaiting our return." The moments where Anakin lost control of himself gave the Jedi a small window into his feelings. Mace at least did not like what he saw.

    I guess my Dooku theory didn't need to be true, but I think it's still possible. Other than that, Anakin was placed in a situation where he was in charge of saving his two best friends, himself, and possibly the Republic. If he did not defeat Dooku (The man whom he disliked for being behind a plot to kill his wife and the man who took his arm.) Obi-wan and Palpatine would die. He was afraid of failing them. He was angry at Dooku for everything he had done. Obi-Wan was out like a light. Dooku was the enemy. Anakin did not have to hide anything. He didn't have to show Jedi restraint. When he kicked Dooku off the railing, he already looked like he was getting mad. When they locked blades, Dooku was taunting him trying to further draw out those feelings. He was quite succesfull, may I add. ;)

    Carnage
  18. MASTER_JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 1
    Dooku knows about Anakin's inabilities very well. Anakin's anger was sensed by the Council in TPM and I'm sure they felt something of his anger during his reaction to not being made a master. Take into consideration that Anakin says to Yoda 'What does that have to do with anything?' when referring to his fear over his mother.

    Anakin openly admitted to Padme that he couldn't be rational at all. Anakin was completely fearful during the events of Episode II and on the surface he kept his emotions in check during Episode 3 for the most part.
  19. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "There is nothing in the films to indicate that Anakin is hiding his emotions from the Jedi."

    lol did we watch the same movies??

    He hides everything! The Tuskens, love for Padme, resentment towards Obi/Jedi..
    he does nothing but hide things in EPII/III.

  20. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Hiding your actions and hiding your emotions are two different things. Remember I am talking about the Jedi ability to know things through psychic powers. So one's outward expression is really irrelevant. Anakin was a highly emotional guy to begin with so one would think that would only make it easier.
  21. TomPiltoff Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
    Oh shut up.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's not called for Tom.

    Anakin does hide his feelings. They do not know that he has much fear regarding his loved ones. They do not know that he has incredible anger regarding his own weakness. They don't know that he harbors hate for a lot of different reasons. They only sense his anger when he displays it openly. But aside from that one time, he has kept his emotions hidden. Only when he felt Anakin's nervousness and disappointment, did Obi-wan speak up to Anakin. Otherwise, he keeps his thoughts and feelings from the Jedi. They do not sense that which troubles him. Dooku senses it, because Anakin's not trying to cover up his feelings.
  23. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    Yeah, I actually think Cryogenic makes a good point here. There are two extremes - fans that try to make sure they can explain everything and make sure that Lucas didn't make any mistakes in the movies, and fans that try to make every little thing that was missed by a horribly disappointing plot hole that discredits the entire saga. I do see people that refuse to grasp a concept because they think they have found a plot hole and just will not accept ANYTHING other than the fact that Lucas blew it. I admit to probably letting too many things slide and stretching to explain things that probably should have been addressed by the movies, but hey! What is this board for anyway?

    Carnage
  24. SLASHAXL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
    I think the ROTS novel describes Dooku's duel with anakin best. It gives insight into what Anakin and Dooku are feeling throughout their battle.

    Anakin is holding back his anger and is afraid of what will happen if he unleashes it. Once he does unleash it thats when he becomes invincible against Dooku. Dooku sences that Anakin is struggling with these emotions and trys to use it to his advantage, but this backfires when Anakin lets rip, Dooku is then unable to match strength with Anakin and is unable to match him full stop.

  25. VCK Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2006
    I think the most simple explanation is that Sith have greater powers than Jedi.
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