"I should of known the Jedi were plotting to take over!" - Vader

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luke-Jivewalker, Jul 10, 2006.

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  1. Luke-Jivewalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2004
    During his fight with Kenobi, Vader says that from his point of view the Jedi are evil and that he should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.

    I'm not sure I see where Vader is coming from on this, or why he claims to believe it.

    After watching ROTS several times, to me it's never really evident why Anakin/Vader believed the Jedi to be evil. I can see how he might feel betrayed in that the council ordered him to spy on Palpatine, but after Palpatine reveals to Anakin he's a Sith, this should no longer have been an issue for Anakin. The council was justified in ordering him to do this. He should of known that.

    So that can't be the only reason for his view the Jedi are evil.

    As for the other line about the Jedi plotting to take over, I always thought Anakin/Vader didn't really believe this and merely told Padme that the Jedi were taking over just to help persuade her to see his point of view and to undertand his actions in the temple. But it would seem that Vader actually believes this statement as he tells it to Obi-wan. Does he really believe that the Jedi are interested in taking control of the Republic? Why does he suddenly think that?

    Can anyone help shed some light on to what is going on in Anakin's head when he says these things?

    Thanks,

    - Jivewalker
  2. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    well i would dissagree about the council being justified, they betrayed anakin and used him, even though they were right about palpantine that does not excuse them.

    the problem i see is that most people seem to come at these questions from the assumption that the council is good and just and the jedi are right.

    they are not.

    there are heros on both sides and evil is everywhere as the crawl says, well the jedi council is just as out of bounds as palpantine though their motives are good they break rules too and betray.

    the jedi did try to take over.

    without any athority, without a legal warrant mace and company attempted an illegal Coup de Ta.

    simply put when palpantine accuses mace of being a traitor in his duel he is legally correct, of course mace is morally correct when he accuses palpantine of being a traitor.

    its all point of view.

    while i think the movie itself was a lot worse than "sub par" this exchange is not something i have a problem with, it makes sense when little else in the film dose.
  3. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    I Should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over!

    When Anakin arrived in the Chancellor's office, he witnessed Mace Windu attempting to assinate the Chancellor. The Jedi were plotting to take over. In a conversation earlier in the film the Jedi Council were discussing removing Palpatine by force and then ruling the Republic until a new Chancellor could be voted in. Palpatine twists what the Jedi were planning on doing by making it seem like the Jedi planned to rule the Republic forever instead of just on a temporary basis.

    From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

    It's difficult to say exactly what Vader meant, it could have been a few things. It's probably a combination. Overthrowing the Chancellor and attempting to seize control of the government, is apprently evil to Vader. Or the Jedi could be evil for their beliefs. Not allowing attachments to people, Vader would most likely find this evil. Or he just wanted to hurt Kenobi. The Jedi are evil Obiwan, that's why I switched sides, you failed me as a teacher. He was angery at the time too, of course. The Jedi of course, are not evil, maybe strict and decaying, but not evil.

    Vader also had his mind twisted by Sidious. Vader is willing to belive anything that puts the Jedi in a bad light so he himself is not considered evil. Vader doesn't want to be evil, he wants to be good, he is simply justifying his actions so he can look himself in the mirror and say hey, I raided the temple and wipped out the sepratist council in the name of peace, in goodness.
  4. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    i'd go one further than saying just that his mind has been twisted.

    i would say he's predisposed to seeing the jedi in a bad light. He probably holds some anger towards them for his mother, he was too old and yet too young to leave her and the lifestyle they gave him. He knew something different and always seemed to be chomping at the bit as if the jedi way was restraining him. the rebelious child is always predisposed to seeing their parents in a bad light, and that probably gave sidious a big opening to twist his mind.
  5. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    From Anakin's statements about the Jedi taking over and being evil, his mind has been twisted. As Obi-Wan said to him, his lust for power and embracing the dark side twisted his mind that he no longer was able to use sound reasoning.

    I mean think of it, his mind had to be twisted in order to kill the Younglings, who surely were not any part of a plan to takeover the Republic. His mind was sick to think if I kill people it will give me the power to save Padme.

    I do wish Anakin had been in the room when Mace was speaking of taking control of the Republic in the interim upon removing Palpatine, then I think this would have been more believeable for him to actually believe the Jedi wanted to take over.

    But the fact remains, Anakin's mind was so twisted by the dark side that he convinced hismelf that the Jedi were trying to takeover in order to justify helping to destroy the Jedi order.

    How sad that Anakin killed in hopes to save lives, only to help bring about Padme's death.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  6. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Even Yoda said something like, "To a dark place this line of thought will carry us." Just saying, 'I'm good' doesn't mean you can do anything you want, which is what the jedi were doing sort of. Plus Anakin wanted to be the most powerful jedi ever, to save people from death, so he was confused.
  7. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I can't help but view this discrepancy in terms of behind-the-scenes workings.

    Because all that stuff about Anakin telling Mace about Sidious and being torn about saving Palpatine never existed in the shooting script. Originally, Palpatine revealed he is Sidious and points out how the Jedi were using him as a pawn and then Anakin stays with him--then Mace comes in, tries to kill him and Palpatine says "I told you they were taking over" and then Anakin helps kill Mace, kneels and says "yes, you were right about the Jedi, i pledge myself to your teachings." So Palpatine knights him and says "good, now go and wipe out all the Jedi in the temple," which Anakin promptly does.

    The original structure of the film not only made Anakin's temple massacre more plausible, it also gave credence to his line "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over."

    But in the edit the Jedi were downplayed and things were structured so that it is entirely an issue about Padme--the Sith reveal scene became centred around the darkside powers to save her and then Anakin remained loyal and told Mace and then the "ruminations" scene plus him coming in and Palpatine saying "i have the power to save the one you love," as well as Anakin kneeling and saying "just help me save padme." All of these things helped the film but the rest of the script was not entirely re-balanced in accordance with such a massive story arc change--Anakin's cold-blooded killing of the Jedi whom he was loyal to only moments before now seems abrupt and unmotivated and his line about the Jedi taking over also seems a bit odd.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Well, blame Lucas's friends for telling him to change that part of the film. They suggested that he alter the sequence, so we see Anakin struggle with being good and being evil.
  9. Wolfguard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 1
    The whole confrontation he witnessed between Mace and Palps is what pushed him over. Remember, he kept telling Mace that he should stand trial, and Mace was like "uh-UH." Not only did he witness a Jedi trying to work around the legal system to kill someone, he attacked him while he was in the process of executing Palpatine. Sure, he wanted to do whatever he could to save Padme, but that was only part of the issue during the confrontation. Anakin is thinking in "absolutes," thus Mace was doing something evil, i.e. taking the law into his own hands and trying to kill someone.

    Now let's throw in the Padme factor. The goal of any living Jedi would be to kill the Emperor. Anakin needs the Emperor to save Padme. The Jedi are now "evil" because they will try to interfere with his life yet again, by trying to kill the Emperor, thus they must be killed in order to save Padme. At this point, they will probably take the law into their own hands yet again by attempting to kill him (Anakin) as well since he is under the command of the Emperor and willing to defend and kill for him. The Jedi want to contol everything, but not now. Now ANAKIN is in control and HE will put an end to their devious scemes.


    See? Downward spiral and reverse logic will getcha every time. ;)
  10. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Wolfguard
    The whole confrontation he witnessed between Mace and Palps is what pushed him over. Remember, he kept telling Mace that he should stand trial, and Mace was like "uh-UH." Not only did he witness a Jedi trying to work around the legal system to kill someone, he attacked him while he was in the process of executing Palpatine. Sure, he wanted to do whatever he could to save Padme, but that was only part of the issue during the confrontation. Anakin is thinking in "absolutes," thus Mace was doing something evil, i.e. taking the law into his own hands and trying to kill someone.


    I see it the same way. With the Mace / Sidious duel, Anakin was trying to negotiate, but it came down to who you were going to obey for Anakin. If he went against Mace, he was out of the jedi order. After the duel, if he went against Sidious, he would have been hunted down in order 66.

    With that line, "I should of known the Jedi were plotting to take over!" I mean, that's exactly what the jedi were planning to do. Sidious got elected legally. Violence shouldn't be a response.
  11. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    He didn't believe it. Anakin wanted to grab onto any justification he could find. He'll also believe anything Palp says.
    I just watched this again and it's interesting, and a little sad, how the new Lord Vader parrots back or agrees with everything Sids says after Anakin turns. "I agree. Their first move will be against the Senate." He sounds like a toady curring favor with a new boss, and in every subsequent exchange with Sids he uses that same flat, robotic "I hear and obey" tone.

    And about the whole Mace issue in this thread. Whatever thoughts Windu had about the Jedi Council taking over, the initial confrontation with the Chancellor was about his arrest. After said Chancellor kills three Jedi and goes after Mace, Mace is then going to "end this" - which Sids was going to do also if given the chance.
  12. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    He didn't believe it. Anakin wanted to grab onto any justification he could find. He'll also believe anything Palp says.
    I just watched this again and it's interesting, and a little sad, how the new Lord Vader parrots back or agrees with everything Sids says after Anakin turns. "I agree. Their first move will be against the Senate." He sounds like a toady curring favor with a new boss, and in every subsequent exchange with Sids he uses that same flat, robotic "I hear and obey" tone.


    True. But Mace and Ki-Adi-Mundi were planning to replace Senators, which Anakin or Sids did not hear in their presence. Maybe they felt that through the Force ?
  13. AnakinLuver Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2006
    star 4
    I believe in the this response the whole way... you've got it down to a nail, LordVader66...

    You've said everything I was thinking when I read the post... I don't think I need to add anything cept that I truly think Vader was twisted by the end of ROTS and he couldn't help himself but think these things...

    Rachel Rose@};-
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Sidious is guilty of war crimes because he masterminded everything from the Seperatist Movement to the Clone Wars in order to gain absloute power over the Republic and soon, the galaxy. Mace was right when he said that Sidious is "too dangerous to be left alive" because he will continue to tear the galaxy apart by creating wars as long as he lives so the only way for the Jedi to put an end to that was over Sidious's dead body. Of course, Anakin wouldn't allow it because Sidious brainwashed him into thinking that Sidious is the key to helping Padme survive childbirth so he turns traitor and helps Sidious destroy the Jedi.

    At that point, Anakin's mind was so twisted that he believes whatever Sidious is telling him including the idea that the Jedi are evil and were plotting to take over the Republic.
  15. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    As the prior post alludes to, once Palps reveals to Anakin who he really is, the jig is up. The phony clone war, Darth Maul, Dooku, Jango, Zam...all of this was orchestrated by Palps. Numerous attempts on Anakin's life, on Padme's life, the death of Qui Gon, the Geonosis slaughter, The deaths and casualties from the Clone war. And not to mention 14 years of lies and manipulation. Anakin knows all of this. Palpatine is more evil than any other being Ani has encountered. And HE has taken over!

    He sees Palps go an declare himself Emperor. For Ani to ever think the Jedi were ?taking over? is just dumb. This is the problem with so much of the storyline of the PT. It forces you to conclude that so many of the characters are just bumbling fools.

    As for Anakin witnessing. Mace ?trying to assassinate? the Chancellor, uh?.did he not notice the THREE Jedi corpses laying at the door as he walked in? Who is to say it was not in self-defense? Not to mention that Mace was standing over an unarmed Palps. He did not just slice and dice him. It was only after Palps tried to zap him that Mace said he had to die.
    And for Anakin to believe ANYTHING Palps said at that point was completely ridiculous.

    I understand Ani killing Mace to ?save? Padme. But to think the Jedi were trying to take over the government based on the great liar Palps? words? I don?t think so.
  16. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    For me personally I cringe when I hear Anakin say those words about the Jedi trying to takeover. Becoming twisted by the dark side in order to save Padme, that makes a lot of sense. But Anakin believeing the Jedi wanted to takeover was ridiculous. I just wish that this thinking by Anakin was not even in the film.

    Anakin's issues with the Jedi should have remained with him not being made a master and made to feel he was not trusted.

    It was okay for the Sith to take over the Republic, rather the Jedi.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  17. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    I think all the talking parts between Obiwan and Vader on Mustafar are pretty messed up as well. I mean Vader should have acknowledged to Obiwan that he was doing it solely for Padme.

    Obiwan: You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind...

    Vader: No, I haven't Obiwan. I know exactly what I'm doing, I'm saving my wife from death. The Jedi couldn't help me save her and that's why we stand here as enemies right now. I'm sorry Obiwan for failing you...(tears streaming down his face)

    Obiwan: Anakin it isn't to late, let me help you!

    Vader: Just go now Obiwan! Don't make me do this....

    Obiwan: I have to stop you Anakin (draws lightsaber)

    Vader: I don't want to do this...(jumps at Obiwan)


    Something as simple as that, you know? Anakin being completely honest about the whole thing, not playing mind games with himself. He joined the Sith and became evil for 1 reason: Padme. He shouldn't be lying to himself and Obiwan on Mustafar. Anakin knew the Jedi weren't plotting to take over and he knew that they weren't evil.
  18. MasterGizz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2003
    star 1
    Have. I should *have* known the Jedi were plotting to take over.

    I'm very sorry, I know it's a picky thing to correct grammar on a forum used by people worldwide, but this is the one error that constantly bugs me...

    Flame me about it if you desire, I just had to butt in with this :)
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But having Anakin say that he is doing this for the galaxy shows that he has stopped caring about Padme and is caring about the power he has. It's like a drug. He wants more and he wants to use it, because now he has access to it. So by not telling Obi-wan he's doing this for Padme, it shows how skewered his priorities are.

    Anakin lets himself believe that the Jedi were evil, to justify what he does. But then he does it so much, that he starts to believe his own hype. That's why Hayden said that he is decieved by the con, because he lets himself believe in it. He convinces himself that Palpatine was only doing this because the Jedi opposed the Sith, who really wanted to make things right. The Jedi weren't doing it right, so it's time for a new order.
  20. Bisrossk Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2006
    I think GL's just a bad writer. If Anakin cared about what was or evil or not he wouldn't have slaughtered a bunch of children or choked his wife. Is he trying to show that Anakin thinks he's the good guy in all this? ********.

    And it's just another reason to lose respect for Anakin. "Nuh-uh. I'm not evil. Yoooooou're evil."

    Strilo edit: swearing must be completely starred out.
  21. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    LOL. Bisrossk and Darth Sin nailed it.
  22. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    consider yourself flamed, LOL
  23. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Short and sweet. Next thread! ;)
  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4


    That was an eye-opener. I'd never thought of it that way before; the way you explain it certainly makes what happens (and why) in the movie a lot more understandable.......






    Well, Darth Sin, I guess you don't realize that it was more important for the movie to have a dubious 'moral message' than a moral conflict that actually made sense. [face_plain]

    The 'moral message' being that "attachments are the 'gateway' to all evil"...................









    Yes, something like that would have worked better. Great job.













    Regards,

    Steven
  25. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    But it's also interesting that HC also said that because Anakin is conned, that makes the character's actions more understandable (or sympathetic, I don't have the interview in front of me from SW Insider). But instead it makes it less understandable, since the whole "Jedi taking over idea" is both separate from and less important to Anakin than saving his wife. But it's the one reason he gives to O-W at that moment. Leaving it out also would've fit in better with the editing changes mentioned earlier by keeping the focus on Padme. That's the self-delusional reason he wants power in the first place.
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