"I should of known the Jedi were plotting to take over!" - Vader

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luke-Jivewalker, Jul 10, 2006.

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  1. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    The exchange of dialogue between Obiwan and Vader on Mustafar was not right for the stitution. They spent practically everyday together for years and the way Vader speaks to him seems to show that there were serious problems in their relationship. But that can't be true can it? In AOTC Anakin says he thinks of OB as a father. They were very close and when there about to do battle, all Vader says is an insincere "don't make me kill you" I just would have expected on Mustafar that what was happing would trancend their differences in their relationship and Vader would be honest about the whole stitution. Instead he tries to throw the "Jedi are plotting to take over" thing out there and "the Jedi are evil".
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas was making the parallel to Anakin becoming Vader as he is in the OT. In the OT, he was more concerned about ruling the galaxy than getting to know his own son. He didn't want to do the father/son thing, he wanted power. Luke becoming a Sith was his ultimate goal and by showing that to Padme and Obi-wan, all he cares about is power, it shows how far Anakin has gone. That he doesn't care about the individual, he cares about the power that his obsession has bred. We see that in the end, he was more concerned about having everything than what his stated goals were. It's been about power for Anakin. We're just now seeing that Padme was an excuse to seek it out. Just as we see that in his own twisted point of view, he sees the Jedi as being part of the problem.
  3. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I agree with LordVader66 on this. What would have been so wrong with Anakin declaring he must save Padme when he was confronted by Obi-Wan. This could have been an excellent place for Obi-Wan to desperately try to turn Anakin back to the good side by trying to convince him the dreams were not real, and it is the dark side that has deceived him in this. Maybe something like this

    Obi-Wan: Don't believe that dream, it is not true. It will pass. You have been deceived by the dark side

    Anakin: You said that about my mother and look what happened to her. I will not let that happen again. You nor the Jedi Council can help me.

    Obi-Wan: Anakin, you must trust me on this, you must trust the good side of the Force to help you.

    Anakin: You want me to trust you, but I know you and the Jedi Council don't trust me. You are afraid of how powerful I will become. The dark side has made me more powerful. I have the power to save Padme, and I am now more powerful than any Jedi.

    Anyway, you get my point. The reason Anakin went to the dark side was due to Padme. He had his own mistrusts of the Jedi and believeing they were keeping things from him about the Force. So as Palpatine told him, he believed they were afraid of his potential power, in other words feared his power and jealous.

    So this should have been the focus of Anakin turning rather than this out of place thinking that the Jedi were taking over.

    Darth Sin! :cool:

  4. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Despite their closeness, Obi-Wan did have problems in their relationship. And it all stemmed from the consequences of Qui-Gon's death and Obi-Wan's initial mistrust of Anakin.

    When Anakin arrived in the Chancellor's office, he witnessed Mace Windu attempting to assinate the Chancellor.


    I'm afraid that you are wrong.

    When Anakin arrived at the Chancellor's office, he was witnessing Mace defending himself against Palpatine's attack. Then he tried to arrest the Chancellor one more time:

    In the heat of battle, MACE cuts the window behind the Chancellor's desk, and it crashes away. MACE is forced out onto the ledge, which is twenty stories up. They fight over the precipice. ANAKIN arrives to see PALPATINE and MACE fighting.

    They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other.

    MACE WINDU: You are under arrest, My Lord.

    PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.

    MACE WINDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over . . . you have lost . . .

    PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!

    PALPATINE raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE's lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill.


    It wasn't until Palpatine's last attack that Mace actually tried to assasinate the Chancellor.

  5. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Anyway, you get my point. The reason Anakin went to the dark side was due to Padme. He had his own mistrusts of the Jedi and believeing they were keeping things from him about the Force. So as Palpatine told him, he believed they were afraid of his potential power, in other words feared his power and jealous.

    So this should have been the focus of Anakin turning rather than this out of place thinking that the Jedi were taking over.


    It is possible that Anakin was accusing the Jedi of taking over as an excuse to justify his own actions. And his suspicions were not exactly far off the mark.
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4


    RamRed, I believe that you are missing one "no".................:p
  7. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    anakin never really believed the jedi were taking over.
    but as soon as he commits unforgivable deeds, there's no turning back and he needs to justify what he has done and has to do.

    lots of people do this.
    we try to justify our actions in order to bury guilt.
    it's easier that way.

    anakin's lie is obviously nothing like most of us will experience.
    ours tend to be small.

    but the more evil the deeds are, the greater the lie must be in order to be able to bury the guilt.

    so to answer the question.
    anakin has no choice but to convince himself the jedi are traitors.
    how else is he going to be able to live with himself?

  8. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    But of course that is another problem with ROTS. IF anakin is "consumed by evil" and "dominated by the dark side" then he has to justify nothing. he should be acting out of passion and personal desire. And not worried about what Obi Wan or anyone else thinks about his behavior.

    Supposedly that's what the dark side is all about.


  9. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    IF anakin is "consumed by evil" and "dominated by the dark side" then he has to justify nothing.
    very true!
    i guess that all depends on when you think he's lost though...

    imo the justifying stops on mustafar.
    after that he's gone.

    after that point his lies has become facts for him.
    he fully believes everything.

  10. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    As Green Destiny Sword stated, if Anakin is overcome by the dark side and become evil, he has no reason to try and justify his actions.

    Anakin turned to the dark side because he believed the dark side could save Padme. His justification for turning to evil should have solely been based on this. Once Anakin believed that the dark side could enable him to save Padme, and then embracing this belief and gaving into the dark side and become twisted in his thinking, then his justification for killing should have been based solely on gaining enough power to accomplish saving Padme as Palpatine told him.

    His reasoning for killing the Jedi should not have been because he believed they were evil and trying to take over the Republic, but that they would stand in the way of him trying to achieve the power to save Padme. The other reason for helping to destroy the Jedi should have been based on his belief that they did not trust him, that they were afraid of him and his potential, and that were withholding from him knowledge about the Force as he even believed before he turned.

    I just do not think it was necessary to have Anakin believe the Jedi were trying to take over in order for him to justify his actions. And besides that, I just do not think the foundation was laid well enough for him to actually believe this, no matter how much the dark side had corrupted him.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  11. Darthgordon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 3
    As Anakin walked in, Palpatine was cringing in the corner of the broken window. So all he saw was Mace pointing a lightsaber and an old man cowering. True that prior to this they had been fighting, but I don't think you're looking at it from Anakin's point of view.
  12. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I like the additions concerning Vader's motivation regarding Padme; and this way we would at least get a moment where, you know, Obi Wan tries to turn Vader back instead of introducing a huge inconsistency to what Vader says in ROTJ.

    But I think one of the reasons Lucas may not have gone down this route is because everything after ROTS would become even more illogical. Vader goes to the dark side solely to save Padme. He finds out Padme is dead--so why does he stay with the Emperor for twenty years? If he never cared about power or about Sidious or about the Empire or any of that, once Sidious tells him Padme died he should just kill Sidious and get on with his life. I think if Lucas had set Vader up this way by the time we get to ANH the audience would say "why the hell is he still working for evil?"--and it would never get explained. Its an unfortunate conundrum created by the fact that ANH and ESB Vader are fairly two-dimension villains that are simply power hungry and that must be somehow linked up to the "tragic" and "unwillingly evil" Vader of ROTJ and ROTS.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Vader was not all the way consumed yet, but he was becoming more and more lost to it, as time passed. Hence his behavior. He's still struggling when we see him cry, but then more and more, he is consumed until we see him yell "I hate you" and then bursts into flames. By then, he is lost to the dark side for a long time.

    Lucas has said that it is both Padme and his quest for power that lead to his fall from grace. It is his desire to have things, to keep things that he wants and to do so, he has to become all powerful.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I think it's already made clear why Vader stays with the Emperor for 20 years even after being told that Padme is dead. Thanks to Obi-wan, Anakin lost most of his powers when his legs and left arm were severed while his leftover body is BBQued to oblivion and when he was given the robotic limbs and an oxygen suit, Vader had to struggle on healing himself from his injuries making him incapable of turning against the Emperor much less killing him.
  15. jedi_drifter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    star 1
    It's all just feeble attempts at self-justification. Evil trying to convince itself (and everyone else) that it's good. The final proverbial death twitches of Anakin as he is finally consumed by Vader.
  16. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    anakin never really believed the jedi were taking over.
    but as soon as he commits unforgivable deeds, there's no turning back and he needs to justify what he has done and has to do.


    I think that Anakin did have suspicions regarding the Jedi. Especially after they had proved themselves capable of being deceitful, when they ordered him to spy upon Palpatine. However, I do believe that Padme was his main reason for becoming a Sith and that he used his suspicions of the Jedi to justify his actions.


    Vader had to struggle on healing himself from his injuries making him incapable of turning against the Emperor much less killing him.

    I doubt that very much. I think that Vader was quite capable of turning against Palpatine . . . and killing him. This is a guy who could choke a person without even touching. I think that whole ?loss of limbs equals loss of Force power? is a lot of bull. ROTJ proved that. The only reason he had ended up dead is that Palpatine was in the midst of using Force lightning at the time Vader was killing him.
  17. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4




    Yep. Then there's what Yoda told Luke in ESB after Luke failed to get his X-Wing out of the swamp.......................;)

  18. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin thinks he has a right to own the galaxy at this point - why is it such a suprise that he thinks the Jedi are evil?
  19. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    The Jedi really, really, really dropped the ball.

    They WERE plotting a coup against a democratically elected official and then they were going to hand over power to a new ruler that they probably handpicked.

    Thats not right.

    In the end, the Jedi might still have been wiped out, even if Palpatine was killed. The galaxy, who viewed the Supreme Chancellor as their hero and golden God would have been out for blood at seeing the Jedi take over the government and kill him.

  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    ROTJ proves my point because despite being able to choke people without touching them, Vader is still vunerable against PalpSidious. Vader could never get close enough to shove a lightsaber up Palps's ass without being lit up like a christmas tree courtesy of the Force lightning or having him turn off Vader's oxygen suit using the Force and Vader knows this which is why he needed Luke's help to destroy PalpSidious.
  21. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Good point. Despite whatever power ratio there was between them, after Vader entered the suit Vader would always be completely vulnerable to Palpatine's main MO.
  22. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah that's why Vader couldn't never fight Sidious straight up. Sidious has lightening and would destroy Vader in about 2 seconds. Vader needed to figure out how to do something more covert, and for some reason he couldn't think of anything. Sidious apprently couldn't fight Plagueis straight up either, killing him in his sleep.

    Off topic question: why does everyone consider Sidious the greatest sith lord ever? wouldn't it be plagueis? Plagueis had the secret not even Sidious found. Retelling the tale of Plaugeis to Anakin, he seemed to have respect for the man and his power.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine gets the glory because he did far more than any Sith Lord. He managed to whittle the Jedi down to two, if you go by the films alone. He had created the Death Star and converted Anakin into Vader. He ruled for 20 some years as Emperor. So that alone makes him more popular than Plagueis or Maul or even the eu Sith Lords.
  24. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    He is the greatest Sith Lord.

    If you go by the EU (I tend to disagree with this specific interpretation, mostly because it makes absolutely no sense) the Sith Lords of old were like Gods among mortals, yet not one of them came close to the level of success that Palpatine (who was merely a Demigod among men) achieved.

    Palpatine conquered because he could manipulate others, which is really every evil villain's main strength. The Old Sith were sort of dullards, and not much more than dullard warlords.
  25. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    In the movie, Palpatine states that evil is a point of view, and in the novelisation he goes into more detail, elaborating that "evil" is simply what threatens a person's power. Because the Jedi, by the time of The Duel, were certainly a threat to Anakin's power (even his best friend would kill him), they were "evil." It's no longer a moral issue. "Evil" is whatever is against you.
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