"I should of known the Jedi were plotting to take over!" - Vader

To me, this scene illustrates Anakin's ultimate stupidity. I don't mean him being "tricked," or his mind "warped," but the character being outright stupid. He joins up with the Sith, he knows who he's in league with, and claims to be fighting, almost oblivious to all else, for restoring "peace" to the Galaxy. He's trying to save Padme's life, so he joins up with the man who's been trying to kill her for the last ten odd years, plunged the Galaxy into war, and killed the only man who ever understood him. All of that happened at the hands of a Sith, and it clearly comes back to Palpatine. In short, Palpatine is the reason why Anakin's life is in shambles, and yet he fights to defend the Sith oblivious of all this. That's a stupid character in my book.

 

See, but you must've missed the balcony scene. Padme says, "So love has blinded you?" and Anakin says, "That's not what I meant." and Padme says, "But it's probably true."

"Blinded" means "not seeing clearly", "oblivious to the obvious", "blind".

I don't know how you could've missed that.

 

Yes, he knows this. But he will kill him when he has gotten what he wants out of him. And again, Palpatine has not been trying to kill her for ten years. Nute Gunray has tried and only once, which was in AOTC. Palpatine did nothing to her. Anakin's greedy, self centered and power hungry. He wants something and in exchange for it, he will do whatever it takes to get it. He knows Palpatine started the war, to bring about peace. He supported Palpatine before he found out the truth. Palpatine has the best interests of everyone at heart and he cannot fault him. Especially when Palpatine tells him that good and evil is all a point of view. Palpatine paints the Jedi as being just as evil as the Sith, thus it makes it okay to do what he does.

 

And? Mace was still doing an end run around the legal system no matter which way you cut it. Doesn't matter whether or not it was or was not the morally right thing to do, he was still taking the law into his own hands. That's part of what Anakin was seeing, hence part of his reasoning in attacking Mace.





"Of course, Anakin wouldn't allow it because Sidious brainwashed him into thinking that Sidious is the key to helping Padme survive childbirth so he turns traitor and helps Sidious destroy the Jedi."

Again, that's just part of the big picture. He told Mace about the legality of taking the law into his own hands PLUS he considered Padme's eventual demise, hence his actions. The aspect of the law is logical, where as the aspect of Padme dying was emotional.




"At that point, Anakin's mind was so twisted that he believes whatever Sidious is telling him including the idea that the Jedi are evil and were plotting to take over the Republic."

Funny how he went and tattled on him then, ey?

 

You're right, and it's why I don't think ROTS works. I thought GL had his work cut out for him in turning the Anakin of TPM into Vader, but assumed he had it all worked out. Unfortunately, it's now clear that he was making it up as he went along. In reality, if everything up until Palpatine's revelation really happened, Anakin would have killed him on the spot. He would have seen him as somone who risked Anakin's life and had many of his friends and colleagues, along with trillions of others, killed for nothing (he gets angry at Padme just the previous day when she questions the morality of the war), would have realised that this is indeed the man who tried to kill Padme numerous times over the years, and that this was the man who was responsible for the death of Qui-Gonn, the one man he truly looked up to. It just doesn't work.

 

I don't think Mace was breaking the law. By being behind the Separatist movement, Palpatine was clearly a traitor, he was resisting arrest, and Mace had every reason to believe that, despite his protests of weakness, that Palpatine would not peacefully submit to the arrest. In short, there was no way for him to arrest him. To be sure, if he had Yoda and a number of other masters with him, things would have been different, but that wasn't the case. A single policeman can be justified in shooting a suspect whose resisting arrest when he would not be justified if he had back-up. It's very simple and I think we're all overanalysing it. So to break it down:

Mace Windu = good
Darth Sidious = evil
Jar Jar Binks = The Force Incarnate and the Ultimate Master

 

I didn't "miss" anything. I don't buy that throwaway line as an excuse for Anakin's actions. They discuss love as the catalyst behind his rationale, but it was no longer about love by the time his interest in the Sith is piqued. It's his own obsession with power that comes into play when he realizes he can't hold on to what it is he wants. His own greed drives him, not his being "blinded by love."

I didn't "miss" a thing.

 

Unfortunately, Anakin knows the Sith were involved in the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo, a scuffle that endangered Padme's life; Anakin knows Dooku was trying to kill Padme, and he knows Dooku is a Sith, so Palpatine is obviously involved; Anakin knows a Sith killed Qui-gon Jinn, obviously there on his Master's orders, etc. It all comes back to Palpatine.

He knows Palpatine is a lying, decieving, treacherous bastard. He knows how the Sith are, yet he magically trusts in him because "he can't turn back," and believes in an unproven act of power that Palpatine admits he doesn't have but will "try real hard to work on." The main excuse is the Jedi "lied" to Anakin, well, the Sith destroyed Anakin's life. Anything bad in Anakin's life (sans the Sandpeople incident) is directly linked to the Sith, and with Palpatine being the Sith MASTER it all falls back onto his lap. Anakin knows better, he has no reason to trust any of Palpatine's words, but does so anyway with no reason to other than a sweet word from a proven liar and a man who wrecked his life for ten years. To me, that's a stupid character.

 

Actually, you completely missed it. It's obvious by your post. Apparently, quite a few people missed it. The reason Anakin doesn't connect the dots and put it all together is spelled right out for you in that scene. I mean, why do you think that scene is even in the movie? Lucas doesn't do subtext, he came right out and hit you over the head with the reason Anakin isn't seeing the obvious like the viewer is- and you've totally missed it.

Granted, by the time it gets to Mustafar, Padme gets pushed into the background and it starts becoming about a lust for power, but the reason Anakin doesn't clearly see everything you mentioned in your post is because he's blinded by love.

It's not up for sale for anyone to buy- it couldn't have been presented any simpler or clearer than right in the dialogue.

 

"I think that whole ?loss of limbs equals loss of Force power? is a lot of bull. ROTJ proved that. The only reason he had ended up dead is that Palpatine was in the midst of using Force lightning at the time Vader was killing him."

*shrug* GL himself says Vader is less powerful due to phys damage and what did ROTJ prove exactly?
Vader did the equivalent of a sucker punch to Sids - he snuck up from behind, grabbed him and tossed
him down a shaft..barely. He fell to his knees immediately after letting go of Sids.
This only shows Vader had to get Sids while distracted b/c if not Sids would have fried him
into a piece of burnt toast.
Vader may be powerful against ordinary people in the OT, but he is not longer a match
for Sids. Lucas says so and it's obvious anyway b/c Vader spends 20 yrs being Sids' lapdog.

 

When they share that moment, yes, Anakin is talking out of love. They're going to have a child together, things are going good for him. He's living in the moment he's in at the time. He's not thinking beyond what's in front of him. He sees her, he reacts and speaks accordingly. The cinematography reflects that, in my opinion, where the light hits her in a rather unflattering way. Natalie is a beautiful girl, but there is no light filling in her shadows, so her cheeks and such show her, not ugly, but "real." In that shot, she's not the elevated beauty he thinks of her, but simply Padme Amidala Skywalker. No more, no less. She's just her, and she knows she isn't what Anakin thinks of her to be.

That's different than what happens later on.

By the time he becomes interested in the Sith way of life, his love for Padme turns from something to share to something to possess. Yoda's advice was the correct one. If you truly love something, part of love is the ability to let go. Love is sharing, not having. If someone you love is to leave your life for whatever reason, that's the way it is, and it's something to be accepted. Anakin could not cope with that.

Now, if Palpatine had somehow demonstrated the act of cheating death, be it on himself, or using it on, as another poster suggested long ago, on, say, a fallen Clone Trooper, Anakin would have something more concrete to follow. That would highlight the reason he follows Sidious. It would be an ability Palpatine had, but was withholding from Anakin until the yound Jedi did his bidding. It would give him cause to do what he does, it would have a concrete reason to lend his trust to the Sith. He saw that demonstration of power, it would be something he would want for himself. He would want to replicate that ability.

As it is, Anakin acted out of faith on Palpatine, and Palps said he didn't have that ability, but they could develop it soon. If Anakin were as irrational as we are assumed to believe, where he's willing to cut off head Council Member's hand and allow him to die, to be so infused in the moment, there's no reason he wouldn't simply try to strike Palpatine down right then and there. Palpatine would be another liar in Anakin's eyes, no different than the other Jedi leading him on. But he takes the word of a reputed liar for no real reason other than the premise of a possible salvation of power. Anakin's mindframe at the time is, like I said, at the moment, he's not about "possibilities." He acted brashly, he's not thinking about the future outcome of his actions. If he were, he wouldn't have aided in Mace's death. He's not about "maybe," and Palpatine gave him a "maybe" and Anakin took it for no concrete reason.

To me, that's stupid on his part. He had less reason to believe the Sith than the Jedi, but he does so anyway and the "blind" scene is only an excuse to make this scene work.

 

What do you mean And? Anakin also saw Palpatine admitting to him that he's the Sith Lord that the Jedi were looking for since TPM which tells Anakin that Palps is responsible for the Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo, the Seperatist Movement, the Clone Wars, the death threats on Padme's life, and the Sith Lords that killed Qui-Gon(Darth Maul) and chopped off Anakin's arm{Count Dooku). Mace wasn't taking the law to his own hands because he wanted to arrest Palpatine for committing these war crimes but when Palps resisted by killing the 3 Jedi Mace brought with him, it was clear to Mace that Palps was "too dangerous to be left alive". Anakin knows this too but he refused to let go of his fears over losing Padme and when PalpSidious mentioned having the power to save her, Anakin broke the law by aiding a war criminal and helping him kill an officer of the law, namely Mace.

But Mace told Anakin that Palpatine has control of the Senate and the Courts which will gaurantee him that he will never be convicted of anything. Anakin of all people should know better than to talk about the law when he himself has broken the law by siding with PalpSidious and leaving Mace to his doom.

What good is having Anakin tell the Jedi that Palps is a Sith when he turns traitor against them?

 

100% correct.

 

Well then Anakin is stupid. I didn't know that was really up for debate.

He is stupid. He is a stupid mark and Palpatine plays him. I thought that was the point?

He was and always is a warrior, a killer, a brawn over brains type.

Thats why Palpatine was able to manipulate him and keep him on a leash.

 

Even before Mustafar, Anakin displays awareness, not blindness, of his situation. He knows he wants things he shouldn't, and he is visibly upset in the Ruminations scene. Before he turns, Anakin is blinded by love, but not ignorant of the fact that he faces a choice.
After he turns, the new Lord Vader is stuck with Sidious, whether or not they can find the secret of cheating death. That includes parroting any rationale Sids gives him.

 

Dude, I have zero idea what you are even talking about or where you are getting that. You don't put a four line scene into a movie that isn't integral to the plot. "So love has blinded you" is as distant from subtext as you can get and is Lucas' unsubtle way of throwing the reason for Anakin's downfall in your face. I've actually heard people discussing Lucas' unreliance on subtext and direct dialogue as a bad thing; but this is a prime example of how the general viewing audience can't deal with subtext and, in fact, can't even follow hit-you-over-the-head-with-it dialogue.

Possessive love vs. compassionate love is irrelevant. Both ar forms of love and the audience should alreayd know that Anakin's motivation is a love that is blinding him to the obvious.

Palpatine doesn't need to demonstrate anything. He gives Anakin the lure "I'm the only one who can save Padme from dying". Whether or not he actually can is irrelevant; the only that that matters is that there is the possibility. Anakin is given two choices: let Padme die and deal with it, or, follow up on the possibility of saving Padme. Since the story has already established that Anakin is blinded by love, the choice he's going to make is obvious.

He stopped Mace from killing Palpatine because he needed Palpatine to save Padme. There is a reason he stopped Mace and there is a reason he followed Padme: he's blinded by love. He's desparate to save Padme. There's no possible way Lucas could've spelled it out for the audience any clearer without big, flashing, neon words on the screen.

 

I didn't say he was ignorant of the fact that he faces a choice. I said his choices are affected by his love, and that fact that he is blind to the obvious because of that. That is what the word "blind" means. Anakin is blind to the fact that there really is no choice. His blindness allows him to see a choice that really shouldn't be chosen at all.

 

True, but then THAT shows that the whole "Force power equation" thing and even the "Chosen One/Prophecy" element, was IRRELEVANT to the final outcome.....

And what's 'obvious' from the OT - the fact that he wrote it to have Vader under a Sith Master who was also the Emperor - doesn't exactly constitute 'proof' of the validity of Lucas' after-the-fact reasoning that "loss of limbs=loss of Force power", since the OT was made before GL even threw this notion around...(among other things).

 

Lucas first talked about Vader being weaker than Obi-wan, when they were working on TESB. He said that Obi-wan was a six, Vader was a four and Luke was a two. It just carried over from there. It also went back to his first and third drafts of ANH, where he has a Jedi character speak that he is not what he was, due to his limbs being bionic. It was Kane Starkiller and then Ben Kenobi. So the concept was their early on, but he only started speaking about it during the making of TESB and later with the PT.

Anakin is blinded by his love for Padme and his greed for power. He knows what he is doing is wrong, but he cannot stop himself because of his greed. That's why he says "What have I done?" and why he is crying on Mustafar. He knows he's wrong, but he cannot stop himself. He wants more and more. He says this which is a sign of the dark side. Wanting more. Needing more. By Mustafar, his greed has superceeded (sp) his feelings of love.

Mace is right and wrong for what he has done. He is right in stopping a monster from controlling the galaxy, which is the Jedi way. But he is wrong for doing it in front of Anakin. And in part, because it is just as illegal as what Palpatine was doing.

Anakin only trusts Palpatine, because he has no one else to trust. And his sense of desperation, combined with his uncontrollable greed (which is like an addict needing another drug, despite knowing it's bad for him) has resulted in Anakin's siding with Palpatine. People who have an addiction problem will not see the forest through the trees. Common sense goes out of the window as their addiction takes ahold of them. Be it drugs, gambling, drinking or something else. Anakin is in many ways, like an addict. The drug of choice is power.

 

To me, that's a stupid character.

No, it's not stupidity. It's desperation. Anakin was willing to do anything to save Padme, because he loved her. Just as Yoda, Mace, and other Jedi Knights were willing to do anything to save the Jedi Order and destroy the Sith. Because they thought it was right. But Anakin, Yoda and the Jedi forgot one important lesson - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Yes, and that's because at that point in time - when ESB was being written - Anakin/Vader wasn't the "Chosen One", and according to his interviews, Obi-Wan was going to be the main character - analogous to Luke - of the prequels.

Notice that in the developmental discussion that you bring up, there was no indication that Vader's level "4" was due to his past injuries.............

Even IF that was the modus operandi behind that plot point in the early drafts - full Force power potential being strictly contingent upon 'anatomical integrity' - it would then be apparent from the dialogue of the OT movies that Lucas had dropped this idea.....

What writings on the development of Star Wars (including TESB and ROTJ) that are available to the public are useless for proving that GL already had these ideas in place.......so it's a safe bet that these ideas weren't in place until he started writing the prequels.

 

Let's say that Mace had listened to Anakin and had arrested Palpatine and was able to take him. And then let's say Palps was put on trial and convicted for his crimes against the Republic. Palpatine would not have been able to help Anakin from prison. His arrest and being placed in prison would have ended their relationship right then and there.

So if Palpatine had went to prison, Anakin would still have been drawn to him due to his claim that he could save people from death. So Anakin would have no doubt helped Palpatine escape from prison, and he would still have turned to the dark side, because no matter what happened it was all about saving Padme.

Let's say that Mace had listened to Anakin, decided to arrest Palpatine, but Palpatine had killed Mace anyway. I still say Anakin would have turned to the dark side and joined Palpatine because again it still came down to saving Padme.

So what am I saying, Anakin did not need to use the belief that the Jedi were tryin to take over to justify to himself for killing. I believe that no matter what scenario had taken place other than Yoda offering a way to save Padme, Anakin was still going to turn to evil because it really came down to him believing that Palpatine could save Padme.

Darth Sin!

 

Yes, but I want to point out that if Palpatine had been arrested, Anakin would've tried to pump Palpatine for information. And Anakin only justifies his actions to Padme, at first, because he knows she will leave him. And later, he convinces himself more and more that the Jedi are evil. So much so that he says it verbally instead of internally.

 

Vader said it because he had left the Jedi way of thinking. For him it was just another way to forget that way of life. By killing his memoey and saying "I was blind by your ways but, now that I'm joining the Sith I see you are evil."

 

Right, once again Darth SIn.

And furthermore, even Anakin attempted to ?pump? Sidious for information, Sidious would have obviously told him to free him and insist that Anakin submit to the Dark Side. The movie clearly establishes that in order for Anakin to save Padme he has go the non-Jedi/dark side route.

But that wouldn?t have even happened. Anakin was too dumb to pump information. He would have just gone to Sidious and said ?I?ll do whatever you ask?.? Like he does in ROTS anyway. And then once Sidious had Anakin turn ot the Dark Side, free him from prison, and commence the extermination of the Jedi, Sids can tell him he doesn?t even know the secret.