Lit I think, if anything, Vector Prime should be the point of divergence from the sequel trilogy.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by IG_2000, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Well, yeah, the Star Trek timeline went wonky right from frame 1 when Nero showed up and blew up the Kelvin and killed Kirk's dad. So the old timeline is "destroyed" right when the movie starts, in fact the whole movie is set in a new timeline (aside from the mind-meld flashback, erm, flashforward that Spock shares with Kirk), but the old Star Trek timeline does still exist, there's just nothing in the movie that shows that it is still around. but, according to multiverse theory, yes, the OG Trek timeline is still there. out there. somewhere.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  2. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    Old Spock came from the original reality, in which Vulcan was destroyed, creating the film reality....

    Unless I'm so lost I should just stop. I haven't seen it since around when it came out...
    Last edited by Random Comments, Apr 18, 2013
  3. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Um no.......the flashback of vulcan being destroyed happened in the new reality. Original reality vulcan was never destroyed.
  4. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, that's how it works in the real world as well. People make mistakes, then a few generations later their descendants repeat the same mistake. Governments are always complacent, and grow more so with time, that's why they are replaced by different governments continuously. And human beings in general are characterized by extreme stupidity throughout the ages. "Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel," the human story is one of stupid creatures making stupid things for stupid reasons, over and over again. Star Wars as history is more realistic than Star Wars as anything else.
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  5. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    That's often true at some level...but it obscures the greater human (and Star Wars) story, of ultimately irrevocable growth and progress.
    Like a snowball down a mountain.
    Or a carnival balloon
    Starkeiller likes this.
  6. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    Not what I recall the magazine with the "old" timeline saying....but this tangent needs o stop.

    I think Vector Prime is probably the best place to cut it off, if we have to. And maybe some other little cuts into the rest of EU..maybe no more Crystal Star. :p
    Or Rogue Planet, actually. That'd probably have to go.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Rogue Planet needs to go but talk about the timeline being wonky, given when that one takes place.

    (You'll have to forgive me if that was the joke. I haven't had any coffee yet.)
  8. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    :( See, I find that attitude the worst of all possible worlds. Something about it makes me sick to my stomach. I sincerely, sincerely hope they don't even contemplate it.

    No cut and paste, goddamn it. Either do the right thing or don't.
  9. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    But, honestly, the NJO on hasn't been well put together, and there were some major mistakes (IMO), so...it wouldn't be that much of a loss...
    But I agree its not ideal.
    I'm not a fan of any of the possibilities.
    I'm sure they'll at least contemplate it, though, because that's their job..
  10. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I just hope that discussion within Disney didn't go far. It opens the door to a very, very dark world. I am not at all happy with a new Sith-led Empire taking control of the Galactic Alliance in Legacy, but that's what happened; I accept it because that's the way it works. I'm not happy with anything Katie Lucas was allowed to contribute, but I accept it in the same way that I accept the scar from the motorcycle exhaust pipe burn wound on my leg -- it's there, and there's nothing I can do about it, plus it reminds me to be more careful. Once the cut and paste begins, the EU loses its coherence and its purpose (to expand the universe). If the suit doesn't fit, there's only so much you can do -- tuck in here, let out there. Taking it apart will only make it unwearable.
  11. Danzo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1

    I think you're confusing Vulcan with Romulus. Spock attempts to stop Romulus from being destroyed, arrives too late and is then goes back in time along with Nero. Nero arrives first and kills George Kirk creating a new parallel timeline, Spock then arrives and is captured by Nero and forced to watch as Vulcan is destroyed. The original timeline still exists with the destruction of Romulus set after the events of Star Trek: Nemesis, whilst the new timeline takes place in a parallel universe.
  12. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    But, honestly, the NJO on hasn't been well put together, and there were some major mistakes

    it's a masterpiece. There are no mistakes. Name one mistake Because even if you name luke being timid in the beginnning as a mistake i see that as a logical plotline, considering the situation.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    There's an invasion, billions of citizen are dead and the senate can barely get their asses off the couch to strike back. Democracy doesn't work that way. When the populace is attacked it will scream for blood and it will not accept apologies. This is a political climate in which fanatics rise to the top, not couch potatoes who don't actually do anything but giving the Jedi trouble.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 19, 2013
  14. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    Sorry for the out of order nature of this list. It was written as I remembered them, and I'm too lazy to reorganize it.


    In addition to the above post,
    the OOU mistake of planning to have Anakin as a hero, then belatedly trying to switch to Jacen. The death of Mara Jade for really no reason, then Mirta Gev. The molesting/torture. Tahiri after Anakin goes. Too many plot lines at once in FotJ. Dark Nest trilogy (need I say more on this?). The fact that plans seem to change a bit thought NJO as to where this is going. Having a duology setting up a conspiracy/rebellion against the New Republic by the people who worked so hard to create it, only for the next book to suddenly have the government just calling itself Galactic Alliance, with literally /nothing changed at all/.
    The fact that nothing is done for ages about the invasion of the Vong.
    That Chewie died to save Anakin...who then gets killed off a few books later, making Jacen the "hero."

    Basically, there've been some really not so great things in there...although there are good things as well...

    There are always mistakes with /anything/ by the way. The EU is by no means a masterpiece.


    But, focusing on the topic, the real reason cutting NJO on would be the best break point option is because it is a clear, clean break, it brings back Chewie (who's almost certainly going to be in the ST), frees Disney's hands a bit with figuring out the films, and everything won't fall apart if you get rid of it. And honestly, I think they could do better.
    Last edited by Random Comments, Apr 19, 2013
  15. Sith_Knight087 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 1
    From the sounds of it, maybe the post-ROTJ EU was just simply ''Placeholder'' continuity until the ST could be made.
  16. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The quality of the NJO, or in fact any EU work is irrelevant. Once you start cherry-picking the continuity and eliminating materials you can never stop. Besides, most of the EU is too self-referential to allow this. The removal from canon of even something absurd and minor triggers a domino effect.

    The NJO however, is largely an exception to this, and it is an exception because of how it is structured. The Yuuzhan Vong come from outside the galaxy. Until they appear they have no place within the history of Star Wars, no interaction with anything else. Even the works that reference them prior to their arrival en masse acknowledge this, using terms like 'Far Outsiders' (as an aside, the Far Outsiders can easily be retconned into some mean Unknown Regions species that Thrawn's Empire of the Hand beats the stuffing out of, preserving Rogue Planet, Outbound Flight, and those other few references).

    This is, actually, a major stroke of luck in some ways. If Del Rey had launched a TOR-style massive Sith invasion or some sort of Imperial resurgence the level of self-referencing would be off the scale and it would be impossible to excise cleanly. Instead the shift in license holders created a break right at the point in the timeline where it turns out we now need one.
    dewback_rancher likes this.
  17. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    I think you should diverge to the "Thee hath no faith" forum. :(
    Last edited by Bib Fartuna, Apr 19, 2013
  18. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    As far as the question the OP raises, I would... surprisingly be okay with this. I'd rather lose the NJO and after (a lot of which has disappointed me, and yes I'm one of those people that really didn't like the NJO, and I expect a lot of flak over that same as every time this comes up *sigh*) than the entire EU as a whole.
  19. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    The only thing that really annoyed my post NJO was the Birds Nest trilogy, the rest has been semi-okay.
  20. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    So, you're fine with a frankly insane Imperial war criminal being made Chief of State as the best possible choice, Jedi Council members fighting duels to the death in the Jedi Temple over idealogical differences, repeated disturbing imagery involving injuries (exposed brains, disembowlements, the works!), and basically everyone in the galaxy being repeatedly written as Too Dumb To Live?
  21. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Legacy of the Force was pretty good except for the ending of Invincible. I can't defend that one. Aside from Characterizations getting pretty butchered and some plot points getting dropped I still love LOTF. Much better than FOTJ and DNT. NJO is still the best though.
    Obrusnine likes this.
  22. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    Eh, NJO started the trends that really snowballed in DNT, LOTF, and FOTJ.

    What with the novels focusing on the horrors of the Yuuzhan Vong War, spending excrutiating amounts of time on the death and torment of everyone, going out of their way to describe every single second in a torture, having the government completely incompetent left and right, people constantly acting like idiots, the Jedi like a bunch of arguing busybodies instead of guardians of peace and justice in the first half of the war...

    As I said, I'd be utterly fine with the NJO being thrown out.
    Last edited by dewback_rancher, Apr 20, 2013
  23. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    I'm glad the NJO changed the MO from the Bantam books. The fun adventure stuff was good and all but the stakes weren't all that high to me. The NJO was the start of a new era in Star Wars.
    The problem after the NJO is that there is no hope. Even in the darkest day's of the NJO, there was always hope things would turn out alright. A hero would be there to step up. Now with FOTJ more so than LOTF we don't have the happy ending the NJO had. LOTF could have ended alright if they didn't elect Daala. FOTJ was a terrible ending. Rehash of TUF. The post NJO needs to combine the fun adventure feel of the Bantam books and the darkness of the NJO.
    Zeta1127 likes this.
  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Before NJO, fans were complaining that the Empire no longer seemed like a threat. NJO was created in response to these complaints. Now, fans complain about there being a galaxy-wide conflict in every book.
  25. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    It's also a political climate where the galaxy just went through a war. So it'll try and appease for as long as it can, before it faces up to the stark reality. Reality also being, that a lot of the Rim Worlds lost were relatively new members to said democracy and the Core just didn't care. The populace wasn't attacked... just the low-populated rim. It wasn't until Fondor that a major world (population-wise) was hit, and it was destroyed.

    The fanatics did rise to the top. Just in 40 ABY. And a few fanatics still made their way out of the woodwork, such as Sal-Solo. But said fanatics had been purged by the New Republic a few years before the Yuuzhan Vong arrived.

    Daala-wise, there are several reasons shown off-screen which are detailed in FotJ for her rise, and I could give you others too. It's not ideal, but the galaxy's response to Daala doing anything out of line was to paint her in the same light as Sidious, Vader and Caedus and then riot on her doorstep, welcoming the subsequent government and then being quite concerned about the one thereafter. I'd say the GA is more sensitive to nutters than it was pre-Caedus. Which is good, because the idea that 'the Empire is a better way' has been pretty well destroyed by the actions of Caedus, Daala and Lecersen.

    Good is good and bad is bad again.