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PT I think The Phantom Menace is better than Attack Of The Clones

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by cxcfffxx, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    And what was Leia in regards to Han? She was a general and he was a subordinate. Or something along those lines. I would say a romance between them would be highly inappropriate. And she made her feelings very clear to Han to stop what he was doing and yet he "went in for the kill." His behavior was demonstrably worse, because he had her cornered and forced himself onto her. Anakin never sinks that low.

    When Padme tells Anakin that he's making her feel uncomfortable he does the exact opposite of Han. He maybe smiles in a sly way, but he doesn't force himself onto Padme. You bring up that Anakin tells Padme that he's been dreaming about her as an example of him persisting, but he doesn't tell her that in a sexual way, it's more of a congenial "I really missed you" kind of way. Also I'd like to point out that Padme told Anakin that "her caring for him shall remain" and that her "heart goes with him" in TPM, so there is precedence for Padme to feel certain emotions towards Anakin. You used Leia's past behavior towards Han to justify their encounter on the Falcon, but the difference is Anakin never crossed the line like Han did.
     
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  2. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    She shoots him down twice. First when she stops the kiss mid-way, regretting it. This clearly confuses Anakin, as she was plainly alright when the kiss started.

    Then, at the fireplace (the scene in which Anakin literally says he'll do whatever Padme wants), Anakin asks more bluntly what Padme thinks, and she declines. Anakin never again asks, or tries to engage in a relationship.

    Padme then decides before the arena to consent to his romance. Anakin then gets upset when she falls from the gunship, wanting to go back for her.

    Anakin did stop when she asked, both times, exactly as you said he should.

    Han does persist despite Leia's clear protestations, in an enclosed space. He's also casually sexist.

    I haven't tried to spin the OT, or over-defend the PT. I'm just stating what happens.
     
  3. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    You said it. But this argument is pointless. Some people just don't get the whole concept of Star Wars, that IT IS NOT OUR "REAL" WORLD BUT A FICTIONAL ONE!!!!![face_tired]:_|
    It was already said countless times, with enough sources and quotes given, that Lucas intentionally took a different approach, NOT based on bored jaded pampered American teenagers but instead wanted a MEDIEVAL-type love story. For Christ's sake, why not take the balcony scene in Romeo & Juliet and try to sell us THAT as "stalking" and "creepy"? Where the hell is that "banging head against wall" smiley when you most need it????[face_waiting]
     
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  4. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    That's something else people rarely seem to get with the prequels, especially in regards to Anakin and Padme. It's a highly stylized romance and isn't meant to necessarily translate to modern sensibilities. That doesn't mean it's immune to criticism, but it should at least be looked at within the context of the film and what it was trying to achieve. I'm not going to watch something campy like the Batman tv show from the 1960s and bemoan the fact that it isn't as dark and brooding as The Dark Knight.
     
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  5. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Not again... Expressing one's feeling does not mean "creep mode". When they arrive on Naboo, for example, does it look like a "creep mode"? No, they talk pretty normally. For someone who's obsessed with her he's actually very respectful of her.
     
  6. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    True enough. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand that Lucas was going for a forbidden courtly love angle (not just "unprofessional", but entirely forbidden, like Tristan and Isolde). Anakin is, quite literally, a KNIGHT while Padme is, again literally, a lady. It's as if no one ever read or watched classical stories of that nature.
     
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  7. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    @Qui-Riv-Brid don't feed the troll.
    If people think Anakin was completely rotten as an adult it's just their interpretation and you can't convince them otherwise.

    We all have our personal biases, too. A friend of mine from another country who served in the military said the main reason he disliked Anakin because he disobeyed orders directly thus (in that person's opinion) disrespecting the organization he was serving. This kind of attitude I can understand: after all, Anakin did argue quite a bit with Obi-Wan in AOTC. At the same time, even this guy didn't think Anakin was a psychopath but rather too disagreeable.
     
  8. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Three times. “Please don’t look at me like that. It makes me uncomfortable,“ was the first rejection. Then he still prattles on about how he loves her and how he’s been dreaming about her when they’re on the refugee ship (not gun ship as I mistakenly said earlier).
    He says that he’ll do whatever she asks…in the context of browbeating her, telling her how much agony her rejection is causing him, emotionally blackmailing her, and basically demanding/begging for sex. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Clear firing offense.
    The gun ship was my mistake. Sorry about that. I meant the refugee ship when they’re on the way to Naboo.
    Except he didn’t. She shot down his advances for the first time when his stares made her uncomfortable. Then on the ship, he continues to prod her. Then, after the kiss, which she clearly shot down, he STILL persists telling her that unless he can have her, he’ll be in agony, emotionally blackmailing her.

    It should’ve stopped in the apartment when she said that he was making her uncomfortable. It didn’t. She had to shoot him down three times before he finally quit. That’s harassment.
    If it’s OK for Anakin, it’s OK for Han, especially since Leia indicates a greater interest in him than Padmé expresses in Anakin.
    OK, then you concede that Anakin’s behavior is creepy and unacceptable. Thanks for that.
    Han and Leia’s romance is based on 1930s screwball comedies, and therefore immune from criticism. STOP CRITICIZING HAN’S CONDUCT AND CALLING HIM SEXIST!!!!

    He’s based on CLARK GABLE in It Happened One Night. Are you gonna tell me that Frank Capra’s creepy? How dare you criticize my precious trilogy!!!!!! I NEED TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND USE MULTIPLE EXCLAMATION POINTS BECAUSE MY FEELINGS HAVE BEEN HURT!!!!! WAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Seriously, if I can’t criticize Anakin/Padmé because it’s based on Shakespeare, then I expect you to apply the exact same logic to Han/Leia because it’s based on Frank Capra and Howard Hawks. I don’t expect you to start disliking the movies. I only expect logical consistency.
    Padmé’s past behavior towards Anakin was 10 years earlier…and she said it to him when he was a child. I highly doubt she was making romantic overtures towards a 9-year-old. Leia had shown interest in Han mere days earlier, when both were fully functioning adults. And after she tells him to back down post-kiss, what does he do? “Oh, I need you, Padmé. I have this burning desire for you that’s penetrating my very soul, and makes it impossible for me to function. I’m totally and completely obsessed with you. Be mine!”

    I’ll concede that Han’s behavior is bad when you concede that Anakin’s behavior is bad. But as it stands, you just wanna make excuses for your trilogy, so I have the right to do the same. Until you concede that Anakin’s behavior was inappropriate and inexcusable, I’ll continue to maintain that Han did nothing wrong.
    Han/Leia is based on 1930s screwball comedies like It Happened One Night. Since it’s also based on a classic, I fully expect you to retract all of your criticism of that relationship.
    You stop trolling and acting as if Anakin was some model of mental stability and noble character.

    Newton’s third law. Don’t expect anyone to give these films any credit if you refuse to acknowledge any weakness. You’re allowed to believe that Anakin is the most noble, virtuous character in movie history, and I’m allowed to believe that he’s the most evil, rotten character in movie history.

    Or we can be reasonable and acknowledge that he was mentally unbalanced and that maybe, just MAYBE, that’s why he turned, despite perhaps having some noble intentions at the beginning.

    But if you refuse to concede anything, you have no right whatsoever to demand any concessions from me. I can be just as stubborn and obstinate as you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  9. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    I think Anakin's behavior is far more innocent than Han's. Anakin isn't experienced and he's involved in an order that teaches him to suppress his emotions. There is a world of difference between the two and it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

    EDIT: Also I concede that they're both stylized, but if you're just going to judge them on face-value Han is the much bigger offender here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  10. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Then why bring up Han except as an attempt to discredit all criticism of Anakin? I didn’t bring up Han. But I’m not gonna fall into a trap where I concede everything, and get nothing in return. If I concede that Han’s behavior is creepy before I get any concessions from the other side, here’s how that’ll go:

    ME: Yeah, Han’s a bit creepy, and honestly, his behavior is even worse than Anakin’s…but Anakin’s behavior was still inappropriate. Can you at least acknowledge that.
    PREQUEL FANS: Of course not, sucker! Haha! You actually fell for that, dummy!

    I don’t concede everything to the other side only to get raked over the coals anyway. I’ll make a good faith concession, but I expect some in return. I’ll admit that the prequels have strengths if you admit that they have flaws. I’ll admit that Anakin has a few admirable traits if you admit that he might not exactly be a particularly heroic character. But I won’t get sucker punched into conceding everything and getting nothing in return. You have to argue in good faith if you want me to. I’ve been had too many times on these boards.
    Well, if you’re willing to meet me halfway…
     
  11. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    The stare, I agree. That's the one time it seems to me that Anakin's actions veer into being uncomfortable for Padme. He continues to stare, even though Padme tells him it makes her uncomfortable. I acknowledge that his behaviour in this scene is bad.

    The refugee ship conversation is spurred by Padme asking about Jedi attachment rules. Anakin answers honestly, but reveals too much of himself, leading to an awkward end to the conversation. It's not meant to be smooth. Anakin's been raised in an austere, attachment-less temple, with Padme as an angelic figure in his mind growing to overwhelm him when they re-unite. Is it any wonder his emotions aren't particularly hidden?

    The context of the fireplace scene is after a day of relaxing Lake country fun, picnicking together, having a nice time. When things get a bit intimate, as they do by the fireplace, both seem slightly uncomfortable at the start of the scene. Anakin decides to make his feelings on the matter clear, hopefully to relieve the awkwardness, and finally settle Padme's mixed reaction to their kiss. Where you see sexual blackmail, I see emotional honesty. Padme says they can't be together, for various reasons. Anakin then consents to her decision and never again pressures her in any sexual manner.

    Leia repeatedly declines Han's advances, even in the scene of their kiss, where he holds her against her will (and unlike Padme, Leia really is trapped on the MF). Han is dismissive of Leia, insulting her royal lineage, her bossiness, her 'female-advice', accuses her desire for him to stay to be motivated by attraction, essentially ignores her feelings in the 'I know scene'.

    Anakin never does anything to Padme without clear consent (though it's non-verbal in the balcony kiss scene, Padme doesn't intially resist, and when she does, Anakin stops instantly).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  12. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    Yeah, I mean Anakin becomes Darth Vader he has many character flaws, but I think in order for someone to be "creepy" it can't just be about perception, you actually have to understand the character and their motives. We know Anakin is attracted to Padme, and his behavior, while odd and sometimes awkward isn't dangerous. When I think of someone being "creepy" that person is motivated by a sexual attraction to the point where they'll do unconventional things like stalk them and collect their hair and what not. I think calling Anakin a "creep" is too reductive and ignores context and his actual character motivations. I think it's obvious that Padme had replaced Shmi as Anakin's surrogate mom in TPM and then as he became a teenager those platonic feelings developed into more, and that's something Palpatine ingeniously exploited by pairing them up together in AOTC. Anyway, I'm getting off-topic. With Han you don't really see much beyond the scoundrel side and he seems purely motivated by sexual attraction, and not a longing for someone to complete him in some romantic way, which makes his behavior far "creepier" than Anakin's in my ever so humble opinion, but from a societal standpoint I guess he gets a pass because he's not awkward and he's relatable, but his behavior towards Leia meets more of the standards of being a "creep" than Anakin's does, especially since Anakin is more fleshed out.
     
  13. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    I actually thought so too until I rewatched the scene. He’s actually the one who steers the conversation towards love, and then follows that up by saying that he’s been dreaming about her. It doesn’t take a genius to put 2+2 together…and he deliberately does this AFTER she’s already told him that his looks and advances make her uncomfortable.
    I think if he’d just admitted that he has a crush on her and said something to the effect of, “Look, if you don’t wanna follow through on this, I completely understand.” I’ve been on both ends of that conversation before. It’s difficult and uncomfortable…and he goes about in the worst, creepiest way you ever really could go about it. Even as an awkward nerdy teen, I never said anything like, “You’re tormenting my soul!” It’s frankly putting a helluva lot of pressure on her because you’re basically telling her, “I will be in great pain unless you give me what I want!” And that’s just not right.
    Just give me a damn concession on Anakin/Padmé so that we can put the Han/Leia stuff aside. And if you ever do watch Frank Capra’s It Happened One Night, it’s pretty damn easy to see alot of that relationship in the film. You can really see alot of the influence for that in the dynamic between Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert.

    And frankly, I know that you’re tired of my defenses of Han. They’re pretty weak and I’m stretching it, I know. And I know that you don’t find them credible. Now you know how I feel whenever I hear the same tired defenses of Anakin, and not just regarding his courtship of Padmé, but his all-around conduct. And I’ve repeatedly made the same damn points over and over again that are pretty hard to dispute given what we actually see in the films, and repeatedly had them blown off, ignored or laughed at. Hopefully, you’ll remember this before going on about how Anakin is such a sane, wonderful, non-violent person with no bitterness or resentment whatsoever.

    Remember, I’ll make no concessions until you do the same.
    Well, as I said, he’s trying to test the limits of her boundaries, which does fall under most definitions of harassment. Harassment can simply refer to repeated unwanted advances. It doesn’t require any physical contact.

    Also, I’m tired of hearing, “You can’t criticize the romance because it’s based on Medieval love stories.” Well, you have your defense, I have mine with screwball comedies. It’s just as exasperating, I know.
    His attraction to her isn’t necessarily dangerous, but many of his other attributes are. Remember, in order to be harassment, all it really must do is create an environment in which she FEELS unsafe and is unable to do her job properly.

    And with Anakin, all I see are a bunch of red flags. His bitterness, resentment, and insecurity towards Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council, his refusal to let go of his attachments, regardless of their desires, etc. It’s clear that he’s basically a stewing cauldron of emotions just waiting to overflow. Within an hour or so of meeting his adult self, we see him commit mass murder…when he’s still supposed to be part of the light side! Now whether you find that portrayal of the character compelling or not is subjective (I don’t particularly), but that’s how Lucas decided to portray it. Actually, when I say I don’t find that portrayal compelling, I take it back. I think it’s possible to make a compelling film based on that kind of character, I just don’t think it’s in George Lucas’s wheelhouse. Someone like Martin Scorsese, maybe, but frankly, the big problem I have with these movies is that Lucas created a story that just isn’t suited to his abilities as a story TELLER. It’s a hard story to tell. And that’s not to say that Lucas is a hack, just that this story wasn’t one that he was particularly good at telling.

    He’s creepy the same way Travis Bickle is creepy. Something’s just off about him and you’re just waiting for that bomb to go off.
    Well, Han’s behavior is more in tune with that of classic movie heroes from time immemorial, from Rhett Butler to James Bond. You probably couldn’t make it the same way today, but the thing is I still enjoy the movies, I still enjoy the character, and I still enjoy his relationship with Leia. Here’s all the concession I ask of you. “Anakin’s behavior is inappropriate, but I enjoy the movie anyway.”

    And I do think it’s a slight double standard to demand that I condemn Han’s character but then refuse to concede any flaws in Anakin’s. Leaving aside their romantic conduct, I think it’s quite clear that Anakin is an overall worse person than Han is. Han never murdered children, never attempted to strangle Leia, or any of the other heinous things that Anakin does.

    And I’m not sure that Anakin is necessarily better fleshed-out. We know more of his background, sure, but detail doesn’t equal depth. We don’t know much of Travis Bickle’s background in Taxi Driver (he’s a Vietnam vet), but he’s a remarkably well fleshed-out character. Same with Michael Corleone in The Godfather. We know he served in World War II against his father’s wishes, but that’s about it. It’s more about depth of character than detail, and I think Han actually might have a bit more depth than Anakin has.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  14. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 7, 2014
    I do think Anakin is flawed. He's obviously got attachment issues, not helped by repressing them as a Jedi. He's pro-fascist, believing it to be more efficient. He's frustrated with what he sees as lack of progression as a Jedi. He's capable of lying to the Jedi about his covert marriage.

    I just don't think he's unhinged, psychotic, or creepy, at least not before the turn.

    And I don't particularly care about the 'medieval courtship' angle. Yes, it's clearly the inspiration, but the main context for the romance is two awkward teens or young adults trying to put their feelings into words, and coming off intentionally awkward. Anakin's prone to spouting purple-prose declarations of love, whilst Padme tries to cover everything with a layer of formal dignity.

    With Han, he's clearly not meant to be awkward. The film is meant to portray the relationship as the scoundrel with a heart of gold wearing down the cold princess. But it comes off creepy in an unintentional way, unlike with Anakin. Put Anakin cornering Padme and kissing her after she clearly says no and I have no doubt it would be accused as creepy just as anything else Anakin does is. Han is clearly trying to seduce Leia, accusing her of being infatuated, demeaning her as having 'female advice', and seems to be trying to whittle down her defences till she says yes.

    I feel that if Padme had not asked Anakin to resume their relationship on Geonosis that he could have gotten over it. He showed no signs of wanting to pursue Padme after she politely declined, and I believe that had she not resumed the relationship, it would have faded. With Han, in ESB at least, I strongly feel the opposite. Han is constantly belittling her, getting in her space, wearing her down, even after she declines.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  15. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    I don't agree with the Travis Bickle comparison, because Bickle was showing dangerous inclinations towards the person he was pursuing. Anakin seems more like James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause. Someone who feels that his parental unit is dysfunctional and that his folks simply don't "get it". He's angsty, but not possessive and a threat. He sees Padme as someone who can understand his plight and not some kind of trophy. Anakin's behavior isn't ideal, but the film and the circumstances do a good job of explaining why he is the way he is and that's why I don't agree with labeling him a "creep." Maybe in a vacuum where the context is completely removed; sure.
     
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  16. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    To me there's very little comparison between staring at someone and actually holding on to them after they ask to be let go (not to mention adding in a suggestive jab about "not having time for anything else" after said person finally complies and lets go). The difference is even more considerable when the former is coming from 19/20 year old and the latter a person in their 30s. Between pre-turn Anakin and Han "Dirty Hands" Solo, I'm going with the laser brain as the creepster.
     
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  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Why would she suggest the cameras & then not like Anakin watching her? How did she even know he was watching her? Please explain this disturbing scenario.
     
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  18. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    The whole thing was a setup for her to be used as bait to lure the would-be assassin in, and I felt Anakin's line was more of a throw-away joke.
     
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  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Was Obi-Wan joking too when he noticed the cameras had been turned off? Why would Anakin joke that Padme did that? Why would she suggest the cameras & then turn them off? Here’s a theory. Maybe she noticed that whenever she moved the cameras would follow her. She concluded that they were being operated by a drooling pervert, so she switched them off. I can’t see how else she would know about his leering behaviour.
     
  20. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    Sure, that's a theory. She also maybe wanted privacy in general? That's another theory. Or perhaps turning off the cameras was a way to make her appear more vulnerable, since she decided to program R2 to alert them instead? Idk, but since she professes that she "truly, deeply" loves Anakin later on in the film, I have my doubts that your theory holds a lot of water.
     
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  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    That the cameras were her idea holds far less water. No prizes for guessing who wanted those operating in her bedroom =P~
     
  22. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    Sorry, let me backtrack a little here. The plan was her idea(turning the cameras off and being used as bait), but the cameras being installed in the first place by all indications were not. That's what I was referring to earlier and I believe I misspoke.
     
  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Turning the cameras off has nothing to do with her baiting the assassin. It just makes it harder for the Jedi to help her if that happens. Still she’d rather take that risk than allow Anakin to leer at her in her bedroom. Can’t say I blame her.
     
  24. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    No, I think it has everything to do with her plan, but hey you don't like the film so you're going to take the most cynical view about it. Good for you I guess.
     
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  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I do rather like it. Accepting that Anakin is a violent creep doesn’t detract from the film at all.
    How would turning the cameras off effect an assassination attempt? How would an assassin know if they’re on or off? Her reason for turning them off is stated in the movie. You just don’t like that reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018