"I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rossa83, Nov 29, 2006.

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  1. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    These are the words of Old Ben to Luke on how he failed in training Anakin/Vader. He says this with great regret, and he admits his arrogance and his failings as a mentor. He is also basically saying that Yoda would have done better in training Anakin This made 100% sense in the OT. Yoda is the wise old mentor with great powers who is there to give good advice - he also succeeds in training Luke.

    In the PT we learn that Yoda also lost an apprentice to the dark-side - Dooku! With this information, shouldn't OBW have realized that it wasn't just his fault - it was the Jedi as a collective. According to the OS, even Qui-Gon lost an apprentice to the dark-side.

    The line we see in the PT:
    Yoda
    Dooku
    Qui-Gon
    Obi-Wan
    Anakin

    All the mentors failed (except for Dooku ironically enough). Yoda taught Dooku who turned to the dark-side. Qui-Gon taught someone who turned to the dark-side, and OBW taught Anakin who turned to the dark-side. Not only does this give more pathos to Yoda's words in AOTC on arrogance: "a flaw more and more common, even amongst the older more experienced ones"

    I posted this in the saga-forum because it is related to the saga, but if the mods find it more suitable in the PT-forum, can you please direct it there?
  2. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

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    Jan 30, 2005
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    you're right and wrong

    Yoda trained Dooku but only in the same way he trained all Jedi except Anakin before they were taken on as someone's apprentice.

    In this way we see Yoda did lose students to the darkside because basically any student that turned (except Anakin) had been Yoda's student at some point.

    Kenobi thought he failed because the only student he ever trained, who Yoda was against training, turned to the dark side.
  3. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    Well, as some of us (including myself) have argued here at length the teachings of the PT Jedi were at fault, relying too much on teaching the code and too little about listening to and understanding the Force.

    Still, there is the possibility that things might have turned out different if Anakin had been giving the basic instructions by Yoda (like the students who started as "younglings") - he might have been more adept to making the basic ideas of the Jedi "religion" (for the lack of a better term) graspable to Anakin than Obi-Wan. As for Dooku, there's little we know for certain about his reasons for turning. It is suggested that he was disappointed with the Jedi's dealings with politics ("a political idealist") - and he turned at a much older age. But on the whole, I also doubt that Yoda teaching Anakin would have prevented his turning in the end.
  4. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Nice to see you again! Think we might agree for once?:p

    I agree that the PT-Jedi were too incorporated in the code. I can surely see why. They spent over a thousand years to perfect the code with all their experience, and it had always worked. It probably was a good code then. BUT, they didn't heed the warning signs, and didn't believe that they could have been so ignorant in the past to see that the Sith survived and that they had re-grouped. Their objective was also non-political, which is literally impossible in a modern-society...

    Yoda's teachings might or might not have made things different with training Anakin. I just noticed that Yoda failed in a sense. He may not have been his mentor per se, but he was pretty close with Dooku as I understand it - and I think the movies may try to show this link from Yoda to OBW and Anakin. So Yoda was in a sense just as blind as OBW was in that respect - as was QG... For whatever reason Dooku turned, the Jedi should have been able to prevent it, just as they should have with Anakin. I'm just confused as to why OBW would blame himself so entirely in ANH...

  5. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    But, as I said in the re-post with Mandragora, there was a link from Yoda down to Anakin. Yoda was close to Dooku and they had a good relationship - I think I read that somewhere. Qui-Gon was taught by Dooku. Qui-Gon's former apprentice turned to the dark-side, Anakin, OBW's apprentice turned to the dark-side. Did Dooku, while Jedi, have an apprentice that turned?

    Yoda was against training Anakin, but he did let OBW proceed. Again, Yoda was the more experienced one - why should OBW take the blame for it all? It was more incorporated with the Jedi paradigm than it was his individual flaws... Or at least a combination
  6. mandragora Force Ghost

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    I doubt it :)

    Since with Dooku and Qui-Gon's unnamed apprentice plus the lost I-don't-know-how-many portrayed in the Jedi temple hall we have a good number who left the order, at least two of them even turned to the dark side, I don't think one can say that the code always worked. Who knows how many more would have left the order if they had lived in more difficult times, or if faced with an "alternative" mentor as charismatic as Palpatine.

    As his master he was personally responsible for Anakin's education. The fact that other masters have failed before him is no excuse for his own failure. Imagine how he would feel if he had been the first to have had an apprentice that turned to the dark side! If he felt he couldn't handle the task he should have told the council, not only in terms of "concerns" he voices (for not listening to him when he did I don't excuse them) but by laying down his mandate to teach Anakin. Apart from that, he had a fair amount of discretionary scope to adjust his teachings to the individual needs of his apprentice - as demonstrated clearly by the less than orthodox teaching methods he experienced under his apprenticeship to Qui-Gon Jinn.
  7. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    Hehe, but at least you're a formidable opponent[:D]

    I see your point, and I suppose you're right. But in all honesty, they were talking about the lost twenty and that was for a 1000 years. They had also managed to keep a relative peace in the universe/republic, which is quite impressive...

    I agree that he was personally responsible. But didn't you once argue that the Jedi were indoctrinated to fit the Jedi paradigm? I'm not sure I agree completely with that, but he was brought up a Jedi with all the ethics and codes that followed. He trained Anakin according to the code, with bits and pieces from the training of QG.

    From the few dialogues of QG and OBW they didn't seem to share the same philosophical views. In reality quite strange if you ask me, but it was so still.

    OBW most likely felt obligated to train Anakin under the dying wish of QG. As time progressed so did his feelings towards Anakin as a friend and a Jedi.

    Would you say that Yoda wasn't individual enough? I'm not sure about that. The scene with the younglings shows, at least to me, that he cherished the individual autonomous mind of a young child...

  8. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    I'll return the compliment :)

    The republic hadn't faced any real threats during these 1000 years (as shown by the fact that there had never been the need for an army) - as I said, who knows what would have happened if times were more difficult, and if Jedi apprentices were faced with someone like Palpatine? Imo they were just lucky - lucky that the republic didn't have any real enemies and lucky that there wasn't anyone like Palpatine.

    I still think they were indoctrinated. But in AOTC at the latest Obi-Wan was a master - and I expect a master to be able to rise above the indoctrination at least to some degree.

    I don't know - it's hard to tell from just that single scene.
  9. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    I'm sure some serious things did happen in a 1000 year span - the no need for an army could simply be because they excercised their philosophy in such a good fashion - but that's just my opinion. Palpatine surely would excercise a great threat to any society, even a utopia, which I don't argue the Republic ever was!

    As for lucky? Can you be lucky for 1000 years?[face_thinking]

    Have you read Nineteen Eighty-Four (Grrreat book)? It is the epitome of an indoctrinated society. BUT, the most indoctrinated of them all is the most intelligent and senior member of the "Inner Party". The scary part is that he knows he is indoctrinated, but he just goes with the flow. My point is being a master doesn't necessarily render you capable of breaking loose of the power discourse. Realizing it, yes, but not necessarily being able to do something about it...

    Yes, but you can, in a way, see Yoda as the personification of the Jedi... It might be an ambigious case...

    But all Jedi were trained individually from one mentor from a certain age, so I don't think they lacked in individuality - although you argue they did lack autonomy. We'll just have to disagree on that for now, as it doesn't really answer the thread[face_peace]

    But we haven't answered my initial question:
    Was Yoda in such a good position with apprentices that OBW should really say "train him as good as Yoda?" After all, Dooku (whom I argue was as good as an apprentice to Yoda) wasn't the nicest boy in the playground...
  10. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

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    Jan 30, 2005
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    The line you refer to isn't fact, it is Kenobi's own opinion.

    He THINKS he failed with Anakin, he THINKS Yoda would have succeeded. This is just the type of person he is - he doubts himself, he blames himself , he thinks Yoda and Qui Gon were much greater Jedi than him.

    It doesnt make it true and we as the viewer dont have to believe it is true, it makes him a more likeable character and he gains our sympathy for his humility.
  11. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    "Lucky" was a bad choice of wording, especially considering that "there's no such thing as luck", I concede :D - my point is that the Sith had been believed to be extinct for the whole time and thus they were safe from their most dangerous enemy.

    of course I have.

    But the Jedi Order isn't a 1984 system - even the hardest critic of the Jedi order wouldn't go as far as that! There is some point in ones education when one should start reflecting one's masters and the codex - and a master should have reached this point. Unless the Jedi order really is a 1984 society - but in this case any discussions on the ethics of the Jedi or on what part of the Jedi teachings are worthwhile are unneccessary.

    I still don't know if Dooku was an apprentice to Yoda as a youngling or as a padawan-to-master-apprentice. And I don't know whether Dooku's motives for turning to the dark side are comparable to Anakin's or are related to how Yoda taught him - since he turned at such a late age, I doubt it. If one decides to turn, say, 40 years after the apprenticeship has terminated, it's just not the same as turning when one is just out of it.
  12. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    I agree with you. I just don't understand why he would explain it that way. He was not a lesser Jedi than either in some respects. As I said, both Qui-Gon and Yoda failed also, and they didn't have to teach someone from an older age...

    But yes, it sure does make him a more sympathetic character:)
  13. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
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    It does, but I don't see how Dooku is Yoda's failure. Dooku was a Jedi all the way until his eighties, long after he had stopped being Yoda's student. Nonetheless, that line is one reason I think making Dooku Yoda's Padawan was a bad choice.
  14. On_Your_Six Jedi Knight

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    Jun 5, 2005
    star 1
    Starwalker hit the nail on the head with that post, Dooku was far from an apprentice when he turned, and even at that it was some time after he left the Jedi order, or so is hinted at (I don't believe his treatise to Obi Wan on Geonosis was entirely a fable) he probably left thinking more along the lines that he failed that Republic that he could see crumbling under the strains of the inevitable corruption of bureaucracies, so he sought a more meaningful (to him) ways to bring the Republic back to it's golden days, even if it meant as it so happened taking it apart planet by planet, Sidious offered him what he thought to be the most credible means and he took it. I never really bought into Dooku being a Sith, Dark Side adept, sure... But only as a means to an end, and in the name of idealism of all things, what he sought wasn't necessarily wrong, how he went about it sure was, but of course by then all the important people in the galaxy were Palpatine's marionettes including the Jedi Order. Dooku only failed himself, and what he strove for. That wasn't Yoda's or any other would be Masters fault.

    As for Wolvo's explanation, I think that's it right there for sure, although it should be mentioned (whether or not it was even Kenobi's failure) that as a result of Anakin turning to the Dark Side the Jedi Order would be all but wiped out and the Galaxy cast into a very long dark night.

    I believe the fall of Anakin is a shared failure between all of the Masters at the time, he was supposed to be the Chosen One afterall, most notably Yoda, who ignored Anakin's silent pleas and even the sense of Anakin was going through, offering instead some pseudo cryptic overly pragmatic advice.

    Man, if there were to be another Star Wars Trilogy and considering my original hope for it concerning the Jedi Purges is all but quashed, I would love to see it be about the erosion of the Jedi Order and where it was going wrong... That would be sweet... Younger Dooku, Young Qui Gon... It would be alot more abstract though without a central antagonist... hmmm..
    Great thread though and I went way off the cuff on this post...

  15. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
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    Oh, I'd love to see a trilogy like that, as I've always wished the films went more in-depth in terms of the Jedi Order.
  16. T-R- Chosen One

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    I couldn't agree more.

    Someone said Yoda only trained Dooku as a youngling. Where is that from because I got the impression he was his padawan just like Kenobi was Jinn's. Although I'll admit I haven't read all the EU or listened to all of the DVD commentaries.
  17. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

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    Jan 30, 2005
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    It was me, although you have quoted my name as something I said somehow!

    This is from OS Databank...

    Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners, though his ultimate loyalty was not to the structured protocols of the Jedi order, but rather to his own intuitions and ideals. His strong sense of independence concerned many, and even his mentor, Yoda, had difficulty reining him in.

    When Dooku was 13 years old, he was chosen to be the Padawan apprentice to Jedi Master Thame Cerulian. This drove a wedge between Dooku and his childhood friend and fellow Jedi learner, Lorian Nod. Nod was also headstrong and mischievous, and he tried to blame Dooku for the theft of a Sith Holocron. This led to a long-lasting rivalry between the two, and to Nod's expulsion from the Jedi Temple.

  18. T-R- Chosen One

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    Thanks, hadn't noticed that.
  19. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Dooku only being trained by Yoda as a Youngling(as was Kenobi) makes it even clearer that Yoda's not really to blame, so I like that. It seems more complicated than it needs to be though given that Yoda calls Dooku his old Padawan.
  20. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

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    Jan 30, 2005
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    Yeah it doesnt make it clear in the movies but all younglings are padawaans I think Yoda may say as much in AOTC.
  21. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Hmm, that might work as an explination.
  22. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Many great replies here!!

    Dooku may not have been Yoda's apprentice at a later stage, but they were still good friends and close. "Yoda speaks so highly of you" to OBW suggests that they have stayed in contact for quite some time - perhaps even after Dooku resigned with the Jedi!

    It is also noteworthy that Anakin was no longer OBW's apprentice in ROTS. He was a knight, and was thus independent as such. We still think of OBW as his master though, just as Yoda would probably consider himself Dooku's master. Once a mentor always a mentor kind of philosophy.

    I also thought it too arbitrary to have Yoda be Dooku's old mentor and master (my old padawan - if the EU contradicts that, we must still go with the movies as that is canon), Dooku be Qui-Gons who is the master of OBW who is the master of Anakin. There is a clear lineage here that I think Lucas was trying to make. That lineage is thus, for me, important in showing that the Jedi as a collective was wrong - it was not only OBW's fault, it was the teaching process. We see that all the masters failed, with the possible exception of Dooku ironically enough.
  23. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

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    Well, it was clearly stated that Dooku had been Yoda's Padawan, and Dooku did fall to the dark side, just like Anakin, so I've always taken issues with how the line "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda" fits in with PT\OT continuity.
  24. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    Finally someone who agrees with me[face_dancing]
    Thanks!!!
  25. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

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    See my above reply

    Dooku was not Yoda's padawaan in the same respect
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