"I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Rossa83, Nov 29, 2006.

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  1. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Not really - because in the movies Yoda states that Dooku was his former padawan, the other is EU-related and hence contradicts the movies... You can ofcourse go by the theory that all younglings are padawans, as they are - but they are referred to as younglings and not padawans! I thought a padawan was one who had been taken up by a master, thus had completed his training as a youngling... I'll ask Sinister! He knows;)
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    Every Jedi that has been taught by Yoda first, is his Padawan. No ifs, ands or buts about it. This is a fact set in stone. However, there is nothing that says that Yoda didn't do one-on-one training with Dooku. In fact, this is confirmed in his backstory. Thame Cerulian was Dooku's Master, but Yoda also took interest in Dooku. More or less becoming a Master to him. Yoda saw great potential in Dooku and thus put a lot of time and effort into making sure he would become a model Jedi.

    Yoda does refer to the Younglings as Padawans, as demonstrated in AOTC.

    YODA: "Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is. The Padawan is right. Go to the center of the gravity's pull, and find your planet you will."

  3. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Thank you very much for the insight! [:D]
    We can say then, that we are both right - but we can say with safety that Dooku was Yoda's padawan, and that there is a connection in the lineage that I pointed out! OBW's bashing of himself is, although just an opinion, is strange seeing that it was the Jedi training collective that failed - we see that he just followed in his masters footsteps:p
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The line goes from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-gon to Obi-wan and to Anakin.
  5. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
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    "For 800 years, have I trained Jedi."

    This quote from Yoda shows that it's not Obi-wan's opinion, it IS a fact that Obi-wan believes that Yoda would have succeeded with Anakin because he knows that Yoda has been on the Jedi Order for that long period of time. Just because Dooku fell to the Dark Side doesn't change the fact that Yoda has trained billions of other Jedi that came before Dooku and that massive amount of successes will outweigh Yoda's only failure not to mention that he also trained one last Jedi, namely Luke Skywalker and look how he turned out. If we were to go by EU, Qui-Gon had 3 padawans and 2 of them(Obi-wan being one of them) succeeded at becoming Jedi and that too outweigh his failure with Xanatos.

    Obi-wan only had 1 padawan which is Anakin and the boy has already started using the Dark Side before he became a Jedi Knight and the fact that Obi-wan discovered that Palpatine, the man that Anakin he's been hanging around for 13 years, is a Sith Lord is all the more reason for Obi-wan to feel that he failed Anakin as a teacher.
  6. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    See my above reply

    Dooku was not Yoda's padawaan in the same respect.


    But where does it say this in the movies? In the movies, padawans (in the personal sense, as in "my padawan") is only explicitely used as the apprentice form. And who's to say that Yoda wasn't taking on padawan's (in the apprentice form) years ago, prior to the events of the PT (after all, Dooku was not a young man. Maybe fourty or fifty years earlier, Yoda was taking on apprentices).

    I believe GL was specifically and initially showing Dooku as Yoda's padawan just as Obi-wan was Gui-gon's. If GL wanted to show that this relationship was different, he needed to qualify it differently than he did. The logic flow fits.

    Also, if we are too assume that because Yoda was shown teaching a class once in the PT that this sets his past behavior indefinitely (as in, this is the only way he has ever taught students) then we must qualify all his past behavior the same way - that meaning he was always using a cane, always on the council and always considered among the wisest. But logic ditacts that this isn't so, that there was an evolution of his character that lead to his current state which took place off screen, which included at one point him being a Jedi knight (not master) who was not a council member. If this is so, then logic flows he would have at one time done as Gui-gon and Obi-wan were now doing -- taking on personal padawans.

    Also, if we are to dismiss that Yoda only ever taught classes and never had padawan's, Obi-wan's line about training Anakin as well as Yoda no longer fits, even less than it does if Yoda had trained Dooku (who had fallen). If Yoda never took on personal padawans, Obi-wan cannot have any qualifier to his statement.


    Every Jedi that has been taught by Yoda first, is his Padawan. No ifs, ands or buts about it. This is a fact set in stone.

    Well, this comment is actually against Saga forum policy, as it forces a canon debate. No non-film fact is set in stone, if the audience chooses otherwise. As far as Saga forum goes that is set in stone*. Just so everyone is clear on our policy. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just want to make sure everyone is perfectly clear on the canon policies and comments on what people have to accept or not accept as fact from something that is a work of fiction (which inheriantly aren't factual in their very nature).

    But all that aside, even if you toss out the issue of what is canon and what is not, either way, as you pointed out -- take his comment merely in the films, or look up EU back story -- both POV support the notion that Yoda had a personal training relationship with Dooku.

    ----
    * Even, as we have seen, hard core facts like the parentage of the twins, is debatable within the context of this forum -- although a debate like that isn't going to get any meaningful evidence that there is any reason to question their parentages, but if someone wants to challenge that and has something to challenge it with, they're welcome to try.
  7. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
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    Yes, but I don't see how it would be Yoda's fault that Dooku fell when he was likely in his 20s or 30s when he ceased to be Yoda's apprentice, and was in his 70s or 80s when he fell.
  8. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    In the same way that OBW failed Anakin. Anakin was no longer OBW's apprentice. Years doesn't change the fact that they trained them. It was also Yoda who was responsible for OBW's training, which is ultimately what I'm aiming at here - and that he is, in that sense, responsible for Anakin's fall too. There is an explicit line drawn to show that it was not one man/Jedi's failure - it was the failure of the collective...
  9. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Great post.

    I agree!

    And thanks for clearing up the canon debate - I always did wonder about how it really was:p
  10. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    star 6
    There's a significant difference in the amount of time between Anakin's knighting and his fall and Dooku's. The vast majority of people aren't the same in their 70s as they are in their 20s. I also don't place as much blame on Obi-Wan for Anakin as most people do though.
  11. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    There is no denying that, but if you notice, people tend to get more and more into their early training as time progresses. Look for instance at old people when religion is concerned. They tend to be more and more religious with old age. You would think that applied to the Jedi too - we see it in Yoda and Mace. Yoda had a close relationship with Dooku, as we hear when Dooku says to OBW "Yoda speaks so highly of you." Yoda should, then, have been able to prevent Dooku from turning in the same way OBW should be able to prevent Anakin.

    My theory on this is that OBW acknowledged his failure as an individual one when it was collective. That is strange when you see how much Yoda changed from the PT to the OT - and most likely OBW too. They had realized that the Jedi as an organisation had gone wrong - and hence they tried to change with themselves and Luke...
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Anakin was already using the Dark Side BEFORE he ceased to be Obi-wan's apprentice while Dooku remained a pure Jedi for many decades until after the events of TPM. By that point, Yoda no longer had any part in what Dooku does with his life but Obi-wan is responsible for keeping Anakin on track in terms of his training and devotion to the Jedi. If a student doesn't learn his place and follow the rules, then the teacher has failed to help their students learn and Anakin still had much to learn.
  13. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Are you talking about when he slaughtered the Tuskens? That's about the only time he used the dark-side while being a padawan wasn't it? And if I recall correctly, Yoda sensed that something was wrong but didn't do anything about it...

    Yoda was still involved in Dooku's life as they had a friendship. I'm convinced that Lucas tried to show that as he so explicitly took note of Dooku being Yoda's apprentice AND having Dooku say that they had had contact way beyond the training (by mentioning their talk on OBW)
    This line drawn for us suggests that it was not an individual flaw in OBW that resulted in Anakin's fall, it was a flaw prominent in Jedi training - and that, as far as we know, began with Yoda - but I'm not saying that it's Yoda's fault either, because I don't think it was. It was more of a collective flaw...
  14. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    If the flaw in Jedi training was that glaring I'd expect that we'd have a lot more than the Lost 20. I don't consider 21 Jedi falling in the history of the Order that bad of a track record.
  15. JediAl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2002
    star 2
    Dooku's turning was politically motivated. He knew of the corruption and wasn't willing to stand for it like the other Jedi..This state of affairs made him easy prey for Palpatine.Palpatine has an impressive arsenal of tricks in the art of subtle persuasion..He plays on fears, grievances..and in Anakin and Dooku, he found fertile ground. I doubt he would have been able to sway Kenobi whose rigid adherence to the rules would have made him impermeable to flattery and subtleties.
  16. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    But the world had evolved. OBW wasn't trained to take on Anakin, and that relates back to Qui-Gon, to Dooku and finally to Yoda (as we know)
  17. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    Yes it was politically motivated, but that still doesn't change the fact that Yoda knew about that! He knew that Dooku was a political idealist and they stayed in contact. Why wasn't Yoda able to prevent it then?

    Why else would Lucas include that line from Yoda to Dooku to QG to OBW to Anakin if not to show that there was a flaw in that line - in the line of the Jedi, and that it was not individual as OBW blames himself of!
  18. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
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    I don't think Obi-Wan wasn't ready for Anakin. He did what he promised he would. He trained Anakin into a Jedi. I don't view it as Obi-Wan's fault that Anakin was obsessed and wouldn't accept that death is a natural part of life.(The fear of no longer being with Padme of course beign what caused his fall.) Anakin feared change before he met Obi-Wan, and if you're going to blame Kenobi you've got to place most of the blame on Anakin, and then some on Shmi and Obi-Wan.

    Because when Dooku left the Order he wasn't a Dark Sider. The Jedi don't force people to stay, they will only intervene against Dark Siders and others of a similar nature, Dooku on the other hand wasn't evil, merely disagreed with the Order politically.
  19. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    I see your point, but don't you think Lucas had a point in making that line so explicit? Every master, with the paradoxical exception of Dooku, had lost a (former) padawan to the dark-side...
  20. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Well, other than Qui-Gon(unless you count the EU.) I do think Lucas had a point in making the line so explicit, and I'm not sure it had much more to it than giving Dooku's backstory more depth. Lucas also probably would say it was Yoda's fault, but given that this isn't something related to canon(as it's only my opinion) I disagree with him on this issue.
  21. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    I don't know if this can be proven by canon of any sorts, it's more of a question of opinion. I, for one, don't think it was an individual failure - and hence I don't think it was Yoda's fault. It shows that Yoda wasn't perfect either, but that is explicit in that he changes in the between time from ROTS to ESB - and that also tells us that he knew he wasn't perfect.
  22. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
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    Oh, he definitely wasn't perfect(otherwise the Order never would have been destroyed) but, I just don't think he's responsible for Dooku. I also think that even if he is, he makes up for it in his training of Luke.
  23. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

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    Jul 29, 2005
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    That is Obi-Wan being Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan has always been his own harshest critic. He had a major disadvantage other Masters didn't have. He didn't have the Dark Lord of the Sith slowly corrupting his student for a decade. Obi-Wan never realized how good a job he actually did. If it weren't for the foundations Obi-Wan left imprinted in Anakin's brain, at the end of ROTJ, Anakin might not have had the strength to return to the Light, regardless of Luke. Its funny though, that the same humility that does not allow him to see how his training Anakin was not a failure is also the same humilty that makes Obi-Wan one of the greatest Jedi ever. He is an even better Jedi for refusing to see himself as great.
  24. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    I agree that it further enhances OBW as one of the major sympathetic characters. Furthermore, it may also have been a lesson to Luke. "Don't think you have figured it all out, because no one ever has" that lecture becomes even more explicit when we see the line from Yoda to Anakin in the PT, that so many great masters failed...

    Arrogance is a dangerous thing...
  25. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think losing Dooku to the Dark Side was enough to make Yoda believe that he wasn't perfect because compare his only failure with Dooku to the billions of successful Jedi he trained throughout the 8 centuries he was on the Jedi Order, there was no way that Yoda was going to change his ways. His real failure was not training Anakin himself or at the very least, help Obi-wan with Anakin's training when he had the chance because as the great Qui-Gon Jinn would say, "Your focus determines your reality". Yoda was so focused on believing that Anakin was a threat to the Jedi that he became just that after he was forced to spy on Palpatne.

    When Yoda realize what went wrong with Anakin, he figured that Luke should be raised by a loving family first before he's ready to be a Jedi.
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