Saga I-VI Marathons with SW "Virgins"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Articulate, Dec 5, 2012.

Moderators: Darth_Nub
  1. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    I have found that with the people that I have show the Saga too in the I-VI order have always loved TPM. Statistically people don't like it because RLM told them not to, and then the crushing peer pressure that follows. I completely disagree with telling people "oh, you probably won't like this one", when the most disappointment I've seen is directed at ANH, ATOC, and ROTJ. Almost never TPM.
  2. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    The "I am your father" is no longer a bomb to drop because its is EVERYWHERE in pop culture. Anakin turning to the dark side & Palpatine revealed as the Sith Lord are much bigger bombs today.
  3. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    It worked for me. And that was in...oh...2005 or so.
    Darth_Articulate likes this.
  4. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Who is this Mister Generally?
    I know it's commonly assumed that I and II were "considered the weakest", but that's not always the case as our own poll on theforce.net proves: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/which-is-your-single-most-favorite-star-wars-film.50007904/
    nextmovie.com's non-fansite poll shows similar results: http://www.nextmovie.com/blog/star-wars-poll-results/

    So I'd say you shouldn't tell them anything. If they hate I and/or II, you can still ask them to give III, IV, V and VI another chance. No need to influence them subconsciously beforehand.
    Last edited by Samnz, Jan 23, 2013
  5. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    No, people adjust their prior attitudes even after being told what the majority thinks.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  6. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Unfortunately, when the question of the poll is "what is your favorite of the films?", the results give us absolutely no indication of what is generally people's least favorite of the films. The latter pole, for example, tells us nothing about what portion of the 86% that DON'T consider AOTC to be the best, consider it to be in the bottom two. It could be a large portion, but these polls won't tell you. A better barometer for what we're talking about is the imdb user ratings. still not as good as if we conducted a poll on how people ranked the series, but better than just looking at favorites:

    imdb ratings

    ANH & TESB: 8.8
    ROTJ: 8.4
    ROTS: 7.7
    AOTC: 6.7
    TPM: 6.6

    But wait a second. Someone DID conduct a poll on how people ranked the series. In this very forum
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/rate-episodes-1-6-favorite-to-least-favorite.50007908/page-3

    Check out the final update of averages.

    And that is most likely a cross section of fans to boot. There's Mister Generally for you.

    No need, but if they expect to not like them, they'll be making a conscious effort to enjoy them. I have observed this phenomena both in myself and in others. It makes for a more enjoyable experience if there's nothing inherently enjoyable to them about the films. That's why I recommended it.
  7. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Actually both those polls work.

    In "best to worst", you see general consensus. Buif you read the individual lists, you'll see that the reason TPM & AOTC are so low is because there are still a lot of prequel haters who just list the OT as 1-2-3 and the PT as 4-5-6. If you cut out those obviously biased ones - as in anyone you can see doesn't love the whole Saga - you'l find ROTJ is actually the lowest ranking.

    The "favorite" one demonstrates this quite clearly.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 likes this.
  8. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    By assuming the "prequel haters" don't like the prequels because they're biased, as opposed to genuinely not liking them based on their merits, you are adding your own bias, which cannot be measured. Objectively speaking, we can only say that the first two are generally considered the weakest. If we're talking about why, then my word is as good as yours. Jarren_Lee-Saber's experience is that people who watch the I-VI marathon generally like the first two better than some of the others. Fine. My experience is that people who are expecting the first two to be horrible and watch them, tell me how they weren't that bad, and generally seem interested in continuing. Therefore, I recommend doing that, as I and others have experienced more enjoyment by doing that. I have no problem if other people disagree, such as Count Yubnub, but when they belittle it, I have to back it up.
  9. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    There's a distinction between attitudes and expectations. An attitude contains bias, an expectation doesn't. All attitudes create expectations, but not all expectations come from attitudes. An objective statistic about opinion creates an expectation that does NOT arise from any attitude. It arises from the statistic. Attitudes may be projected onto the statistic ("they don't like the prequels because RLM told them to"), but that itself is just a bias. The SW virgin would have no bias to project onto the opinion, just an expectation.

    It seems to me that attitudes compel resistance to any differences and attraction to any matches, whereas expectations seem to compel attraction to positive differences, attraction or indifference to matches, and only disappointment with negative differences.

    Therefore, for optimum enjoyment, I recommended lowering expectations without attitude.
  10. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I don't see how Palpatine being Sidious could ever be a "bomb". There's so much foreshadowing (some of it subtle, some of it really really obvious) that it almost feels wrong to call it "foreshadowing" at all. I can't imagine that anyone was surprised by it when ROTS originally came out, let alone when watching it today.
    Random Comments likes this.
  11. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Tell that to my son. ;)
  12. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Is surprise the most important factor when deciding on the best order for the movies? I would guess from the comments about Vader's revelation in ESB versus Anakin's fall in ROTS, that a lot of people see the 'surprise factor' as the main criteria for the decision. Personally, I'm just as interested in the anticipation of seeing how a scene works out, reactions of the characters etc, but maybe that is a minority view?
    Last edited by Eryndil, Jan 30, 2013
  13. Mata2010 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Aww, how sweet! My husband gave me the complete saga blu-ray set for Valentines Day!! He knows how to make his wife happy! Okay, an update on his "virgin" experience will soon follow. Star Wars virgin experience that is LOL.
    The Bops likes this.
  14. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 5
    I'm laughing at the thought of what my wife's reaction would be if I gave her a SW Blu-Ray set for Valentine's Day. She's not quite the fan that I am. :p
    Mata2010 and Random Comments like this.
  15. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I introduced the series to my child in flashback order: IV - V - [a particularly good fan edit that compresses the Vader spin off movies into the essential 2.5 hours] - VI.
  16. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    I'm not a SW 'virgin' by any means (having been born the year TESB was released in theaters), but I am a fervent supporter and advocate of watching the films in chronological order, particularly if you've never been exposed to the saga before.

    The days when the 'I am your father' revelation was relevant AS A TWIST are long past, and it is therefore silly, IMO, to preserve a twist in the story that ultimately doesn't need to be preserved; the importance of Vader's revelation doesn't lie in the impact it has on the audience, but in the impact it has on Luke, which isn't affected by the order in which the films are watched.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Feb 17, 2013
    Valairy Scot, Samnz and oierem like this.
  17. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I just happen to skim over a Boba Fett thread, which reminded me of something that I'd like to add to my previous post on this thread. To reiterate, watching the saga in chapter order with a smal group of preteens has made me a fervent supporter of this order, but Boba Fett is one of the very few things that don't completely work in my experience.

    When Boba Fett came on in ANH, one of them said something like, "wait, that guy's still alive?" So then I had to quickly explain "no, that's that guy's son, remember?" In fact, Boba Fett's name doesn't appear until on ROTJ when Han says "Boba Fett!? Boba Fett!?"--but that comes too late, plus it tends to get lost in all of the other sounds. So, one of the things that (apparently) doesn't quite work for everyone in the chapter order is Boba Fett. A small alteration could easily fix this--e.g., when Boba Fett looks at the camera in ANH, have Jabba yell something like "Come on, Boba!" (in Huttese, subtitled)... but if they did that, whiners gonna whine.
    The Bops and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  18. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    But Boba Fett is (let's admit it) a very minor character in this whole story. In fact, if you watch IV-VI first, you don't even get his name until the very last moment, he could be anyone, just an enigmatic guy in a cool suit. The fact that he is "Boba Fett" is basically fan fiction/EU.

    So, if someone is watching the Saga I-VI, when Boba appears in episode IV the new viewer may not get who he is.... so what? He could be Jango's son? Or maybe a clone that became independent and took the suit? Or maybe Jango faked his death? It doesn't really matter. He's still a misterious guy in a cool suit that has minimun screen presence and barely 4 lines. It doesn't really matter if the viewers know he's supposed to be Jango's son or not.

    (boba fett's fans.. don't hit me please! :p)
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  19. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    And umm...don't we see Jango's cloned "son" throughout episode Two...? And holding his father's head? It seems kinda obvious to me, unless you're skipping AotC...

    I thought they called him Boba then, too...
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  20. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Yes, but it's true that there is a big gap, between the boy holding the helmet, mourning for his father, and the guy who happens to wear a similar helmet, some episodes later, and is never addressed by his name.
  21. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Actually, even watched in release order, you still wouldn't know who he was until you saw him standing with the bounty hunters on The Executor, and you wouldn't know his name until Han says it in "ROTJ". At least in watching them I-VI, you could have an idea as to who he is when he shows up in "ANH".

    On the other side of the coin, when watching them in release order (IV-III) with other folks, I've had people think that Li'l Ani is actually Li'l Luke! So, there's that....
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  22. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Well yeah, but if you watch them in release order, it hardly matters who Boba Fett is, until he captures Han Solo.

    In the meantime, I've actually thought of a better way of addressing this "problem," and that is to show the animated segment of the Holiday Special in between ANH and ESB. It's on the Blu-Ray set, after all... and it isn't that bad.




    Oddly, I can understand why someone would think that!
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I know someone who thought that, but he was drunk, for whatever that's worth.

    There are at least two major clues that Lil' Ani is not, in fact, actually Lil' Luke.

    1. ANH is strongly implied to be Luke's first significant adventure ( not counting stuff like "Crucible" from the Marvel comics era ).
    2. His name is Anakin, not Luke.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 19, 2013
  24. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 2
    I've taken the SW virginity of two of my friends on separate occasions, and while I still recommend chronological order for anyone who hasn't seen the films before (personally, the "flashback" order kind of ruins the flow of the OT for me), my recomendation comes with one major reservation:

    In comparison to ANH, TPM is a terrible introduction to the SW universe.

    Not because I think its a bad film or anything to do with the quality, but because, from the first scene on, its pretty clearly a film made for people who already know, on some level, what Star Wars is.

    Heres the things that ANH does perfectly to ease the first time viewer into the SW universe:

    -It starts off with a brilliant but simple opening shot (the tantitive being chased by the destroyer) that sets up the basic conflict of the film without saying a word.
    -The central concepts of the force, lightsabers, the Jedi order, and the dark side are clearly explained early in the film by Obi Wan.

    -The film has a clear central protagonist who discovers this new world alongside the viewer.

    -It starts off almost entirely with human characters in a relatively mundane setting, opening up to stranger sights and sounds from the cantina onwards.

    -ANH has by far the simplest storyline out of each individual SW film. With the exception of passing references to the senate, most political things are pushed to the backside to emphasize the core of the story.

    Meanwhile, contrast this with viewing TPM as your first ever SW film:

    -The opening scene starts quietly with two Jedi (whatever those are) going to negotiate a blockade with the Trade Federation.

    -Lightsabers, the force, and the Jedi Order are introduced to the viewer quickly and without much exposition or context.

    -The film really doesn't have a clear, immediately relatable protagonist, especially for the first time viewer. Obi Wan almost is, but then he is taken out of the plot for the majority of Tatooine and Coruscant. Anakin is too young and is introduced into the plot too late to be considered the main protagonist.

    -TPM has a pretty complicated plot, with a lot of nuances that are more appreciated with repeat viewings, and a lot of details that are thrown at the viewer at a rapid pace and can be overwhelming for people who don't know anything about Star Wars beforehand.

    Like I said, It has nothing to do with my opinion of TPM as a film. As an introduction to the SW universe, its interesting but overwhelming, an odd, beautiful mess that leaves you with a desire to find out more. Never during the series did my friends ask me as many questions as they did during TPM.
  25. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I think another great introduction to SW is Battlefront 2 video game.
    I know many people are not gamers, but I feel the love for SW doesn't have to start with the core films. You could buy a child action figures of Luke, Maul, Boba & Qui Gon before ever seeing a movie, would that child play with those toys? Most likely. Seeing the films would raise the value of the toys
Moderators: Darth_Nub