I would like to lobby for an overhaul of the Disallowed Words list.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by hudzu, Dec 17, 2012.

Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    So it seems we want to swear so long as said word is not directed at anyone as a flame?

    "And let's dump starring out offending 'effs'. It's just silly at this point. "

    I will allow the use of disallowed words in this thread, only in the context of discussion of a specific word on the list. However, my patience will be short with anyone who tries to push the envelope.

    Ok, I am gonna use bad words so as to get a grip here.

    So there folks go, for example, to the E7 forum and don't like the stupidity of a post. Obviously they cannot directly flame the poster but in the TOS we can "attack the post but not the poster".

    Are mods really going to let "Oh what the **** is this ****?" go by when talking about the content of a post?

    I'll be honest that just crossing that line by that much is ok with me but what are these forums going to look like and are we all going to be ok with it?

    I can't really see myself throwing said evil eff word out with abandon, maybe the occasional ess word, etc etc. What will constitute "abuse".

    At the website for The Order Of The Stick the rule is that there is NO tolerance for any direct flaming but the occasional curse word is ok so long as no one goes overboard but "overboard" is not defined nor apparently needed. Can we expect folks to behave and what will define "behave".

    Think of it this way. There is a red light, a yellow light, and a green light. Going through green is obviousl yok, going through a red is not, a yellow light in many states is "at the discretion of the cop". You could go through a yellow one day and get a ticket but on another get by with no problem. You can update the list or perhaps update the tolerance but I would hope for a clear definition of some kind of what abuse will be.
  2. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    So are you saying we currently don't have a clear enough definition of "abuse"? Or just that we need to clearly define abuse with any changes we decide to make?
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Well at the moment it is both since we don't allow certain words you don't have a clear rule set as to what a mod can do. I could very easily type like I talk and lace every post with this or that curse word and not flame anyone. Are you going to ok that sort of thing? Think about what posts that are non flaming are going to look like. I shalt again use bad words as an example. Let us use one of my recent posts.

    "I think I would take that experience to Meijers if you have one near and go for the overnight shift since they pay extra for it."

    That is the word for word post. What if I did this:

    "**** it, Tunick. Take your 8 years of know how and get you ass over to Meijers. They pay better than shitty old Wal Mart, especially over night and ****."

    Flaming is an obvious no-no. I have no problem with evil words and such. But what will the forums look like if it becomes a non-flame-but-curse-all-you-want free for all?


    Kate complained about starring out the eff word. Does she currently bann people for it? Are we gonna get slack because a mod doesn't want to spend their time typing ****??

    You must provide a parameter or else you get all or nothing. Where is the clear line? All mods must be on the same page. Is it easier to hit the ban button or edit posts if we keep it non-cursing? One curse word? Two?
  4. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    I definitely agree that mods should be on the same page. And I think that no matter our personal opinions, we should always enforce the rules.

    Tha being said, I never liked the rationalization for allowing WTF but not other acronyms.
  5. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    This is the part that confuses me. Are you defining abuse as overuse of language in general, or as some sort of workaround to flaming? To me the rules are pretty clear - don't flame another user, either with disallowed words or without; and don't use words on the disallowed words list.

    I guess I'm just not seeing this as anything extremely terrible that needs to be moderated (disallowed words aside). It's no different than if you had simply starred out everything that's disallowed. Your post comes off as if you yourself are angry at the situation, but not at the user the post is directed at. You might as well have typed it in all caps and added 5 angry emoticons at the end. Simply put, your post on its own isn't anything worth moderating (again, disallowed words aside), unless it's deemed a disruption to the discussion in an off-topic/trolling sort of way. You're not flaming anyone, you're just doing a good job of making it obvious you're very worked up and emotional over Tunick's employment options. Other mods might see it in a different light, but just as a simple example without any subtext, that's what it looks like to me.

    The clear line is the disallowed words list itself. If a word is on the "disallowed" list, it should be edited out without question. If it's on the "allowed" list and directed toward another user, as in "DarthNewbie518 is being a douche", then it should also be edited. If mods are letting language slip, that's definitely something that requires my and admins' attention.

    Using the report button is always an option as well. You don't have to feel like a narc or a "helpy-helper" for doing it. Really, it just helps us realize what we're missing and can in a way help us improve.
  6. Darth Vrook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    star 4
    I believe the use of swear words on the boards is unnecessary to drive forward any point someone may have. I'm failing to understand the pertinence of the discussion.
    Jedi_Lover likes this.
  7. Darth Somnambulous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 1
    It seems like Montie interpreted "effs" as **** and not as F's in acronyms such as WTF/SNAFU/STFU. I don't think anyone is suggesting we allow free use of the actual word. Though, perhaps I am misreading his post (if so, sorry Montie).
  8. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I am not angry at anything. You are looking to modify or relenquish the disallowed word list. I am just giving you examples of what is going to be typed across these forums depending on how loose you are going to get on the matter. Is this over nothing but the word "*******"?

    Here is basically what is being asked, "Can we curse however we wish?" If no then what are we discussing? If yes then how far are you going to let be go?
  9. Darth Somnambulous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 1
    @VadersLaMent

    Montie, I replied to you in my previous post as well, without a tag/reply, which is probably why you missed it.

    The two main things that had been discussed prior to you coming in were the words "*******" and the use of F and S in acronyms. I also suggested the banned words list be made more clear and easy to read. No one had suggested completely removing the disallowed words list, and, in fact, in the original post Andrew stated that he wasn't sure if it should be made more or less strict. Until you came in, no one was talking about dropping ****ing **** ****s all over the place, as far as I can see.
  10. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    This is what prompted me:

    "And let's dump starring out offending 'effs'. It's just silly at this point."

    Yes I thought effs as it the word not the letter. WTF has been going for awhile now so what else would people have been talking about? Surely not the letter since said letter is allover the place. Ok, so now it is clear then.
  11. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    I meant the letter. As in WTF/SNAFU/MILF, etc. I'm not advocating using disallowed words in the course of conversation.
  12. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Can we do damage control? 'cuz I obviously got all this backwards and removing literally every post I have here would be helpful to the actual topic and make me feel far less ridiculous. ^:)^
  13. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    [IMG]

    Seriously, though, don't worry about it, Montie.
  14. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    Thanks for the clarification. I was really confused at what you were getting at.
  15. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    I'm not that involved around here, but I do want to bring one thing up. There were some words in a fan fic I posted that I had to censor, and I only had to censor them here on TF.N -- not on any other site I posted it. I think an appropriate exception could be made, within reason, for fan fiction so long as there was some sort of note in a fan fic thread that the work contains some strong language. I'm not saying that a fic should be allowed if a character goes on an f-bomb tirade or anything, but I had to censor the use of "bitch" and "son of a bitch" in my fic. The use of those makes sense in the context that they're used, yet I had to censor them because of the rules.

    The focus of banning certain words, if words are banned, should always be more inclined towards protecting people from having those words used to verbally abuse them -- NOT to pacify the sensitivities of those who don't like curse words. Given that fan fiction is, inherent in its name, something fictional and therefore not directed at a real life person or someone on the forum, I think exceptions could be made for that board.

    Beyond that, I have no strong feelings about this.
  16. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    You don't actually have to censor bitch and son of a bitch in Fan Fic, we have specific exceptions for bitch for Fan Fic and RPGs. :p
  17. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/fan-fiction-faq-6-0.30257083/

    Under the allowable words, it says "Bitch (true dictionary definition and verb useage)." Under disallowed words, it says "Bitch (referencing a person)" and "Son of a Bitch (or it's [sic] acronym)."

    Scroll down a little more and it says "In fanfics, whore and bastard are allowed as insults between fictional characters."

    I see no reference in that thread to an exception for "bitch" and "son of a bitch."
  18. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Yeah, that FAQ is a restored copy of an old version before that update was made.

    which I've always broadly interpreted as meaning son of a bitch is also okay (It really doesn't come up all that often), though that's possibly dependent on the moderator viewing the content.
    Last edited by Ramza, Dec 26, 2012
    s65horsey likes this.
  19. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    Thanks!

    A clarification from fan fic mods + an update to the FAQ would be greatly appreciated.
  20. Bazinga'd SWC/PT/ Spinoff Manager -Destroyer of Spam

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 5
    While not completely applicable to this discussion or to the JC in general, I recommend reading George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words Case-FCC v. Pacifica Foundation, 438 U.S. 726 (1978)
  21. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    Link to previous discussion where wtf was allowed

    There's some good stuff at the end of the thread by Dingo and a few others on the nature of the disallowed words discussion.

    A lot of this discussion seems to me like it is something that MS needs to talk about and get on the same page about so hopefully that is happening. My personal opinion is that there are so many places that are full of negativity and swear words that it would be nice to have this place not delve into being one of those. Am I going to lose sleep over ******* being allowed? No, but I post in forums where it probably wouldn't be used and people would type ass instead because it is shorter and more efficient anyways.
  22. LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Games Mod

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 9
    Horsey - we're currently discussing this in MS.
  23. Grimby Technical Consultant

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 7
    To add to that, I did reference both that thread and the previous MS discussion thread for use in our current discussion.
  24. aguywithabiggun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 1999
    star 4
    Every time I read that list it makes me giggle like a 6 year old. Anyway I dont understand why we censor so much anyway. I know 5 year olds that can curse me under the table! :_|
  25. LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Games Mod

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 9
    The owners of the site wanted a family-friendly site. Personally I agree. You can have a decent discussion about a topic without resorting to profanity. How many sites have you seen where posts and comments are strewn with cuss words?
    Thumper09 and benknobi1 like this.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza