I would smack Anakin upside the head if i was Obi-Wan!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa, Mar 24, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    If Anakin achieved that level as a Jedi, he never would have turned to the dark side.

    I disagree. It has been shown throughout history, whether in real life or in fictional works, that even the most powerful heroes had their fundamental flaws. Anakin is no different.
  2. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    And Obi-Wan also gives Anakin love and respect, more than Anakin gives him.

    Once again, matter of opinion. I never saw it.

    Hell, you want an example? Anakin says, "You're the closest thing I have to a father." Obi-Wan never tells Anakin that he's like a son to him.
  3. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    The joking in the first scene with them, the whole, "And she was pleased to see us."

    Obi-Wan also trusting him to guard Padme by himself-even with his misgivings I think shows that he does respect Anakin.

    He really does seem to care about him, but he's afraid.

    He's not supposed to be Anakin's buddy right now, but his teacher-he has to be an authority figure.

    You might like some of the Quest books, a_g. They're pretty good and explain how Obi-Wan DOES love Anakin, very much so, but is afraid for him.
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Been intending to check out the Quest books for awhile. It would take a lot for me to believe that Obi-Wan wasn't hypercritical of Anakin though, especially after reading The Approaching Storm.
  5. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    A_G, Obi-Wan's response to Anakin's comment that "You are the closest thing I have to a father" is quite typical for a father and son. Fathers are not emotional w/ their sons, as they may be w/ their daughters. Fathers are also not likely to praise their sons. At least, that was the way it was for me. That doesn't mean the father doesn't care or have feelings for their sons. They are just shown in other ways than words. They are usually expressed through gestures and expressions, rather than words. I thought there were definitely times in AOTC, that through his expressions, Obi-Wan demonstrated his fondness for Anakin.
  6. jabba_the_nut Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2003
    star 2
    Hell, you want an example? Anakin says, "You're the closest thing I have to a father."


    Eh... you know, I kinda question his sincerity.

    Not that he's really out to tell a lie. But I don't think Anakin's willing to admit to himself what he really believes.

    For example, that "someone should make them agree" bit... of course, deep down, I think he really does believe it should be him making everyone agree. But he's not entirely comfortable hearing himself say that yet.

    Or that wisecrack about being Yoda's equal with a lightsaber. If Obi-Wan really called him on it, I'm sure he'd admit he was "joking", and probably believe it himself, but on the other hand he honestly expected to wipe out Dooku without breaking a sweat.

    Truth is, I think that deep down, Anakin really believes he's above the training he's getting, and that Obi-Wan's a total jerk, but he still wants to be a good guy. After all, if he hates his master and thinks he's better than everyone else, what kind of a person does that make him? He can't make that leap yet. He wants to fit into the role of the great Jedi that's been handed to him. It's all he knows. So he feigns humility and respect, when he can manage it.

    IMO, when he tells Padme that Obi-Wan is like father to him, he's trying to convince himself as much as anybody. At least, it's noticable to me that when he (at first) refuses to go rescue Obi-Wan, it's the only time in the movie that he doesn't do/try to do exactly what he supposedly wants to as soon as he wants to do it. Particularly as it comes not too long after the "it's all Obi-Wan's fault" scene... I don't think he would simply abandon him if given a direct choice, but Mace's orders let him take the moral high ground and leave his master at the same time.

    As for Obi-Wan... I feel for the poor guy. It's like watching a substitute teacher in front of a class of unruly children. The more Anakin rebels, the more he feels obligated to inflate himself into an authority figure, which is a position he's not really up to handling. He's not in control, so he tries to fake it by overcompensating. He'd probably be more pleasant with a milder Padawan, but as it is, he's just exasperated.
  7. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    That's a very interesting way of looking at it, jabba_the_nut. Personally, I feel that Anakin may refer to Obi-Wan as a father figure, but actually they're more like brothers.

    I also feel that when Anakin says that Obi-Wan is jealous, he's merely projecting-he's jealous that Obi-Wan is so calm and sure of himself, when he is not.

  8. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "But it evens itself out. Anakin has been trained for more than a decade to recognize and purge negative emotions and to control his baser instincts, he's also very politically savvy. Luke is a regular kid who obviously suffers from teenage angst and is basically unsophisticated in the ways of politics or the darkside of the galaxy. He also hasn't had any training with recognizing or purging negative emotions or controlling them, only what he recieves in the few days/weeks he gets from Obi-wan and Yoda."

    I think you gave the wrong descriptions for Anakin and Luke in terms of their training because while Anakin did have 10 years of training, it is he who suffers from teenage angst and is unsophisticated in the ways of politics and/or the darkside. If he was politically savvy, he would understand that his own view of politics(which he described to Padme) is a form of dictatorship and if he had recognize and purged all of his negative emotions, he would never have allowed them to drive him into massacring the Tuskens nor would it lead him into becoming Darth Vader. Now Luke may be a regular kid with very little training but he recognized and purged his negative emotions once he learned that Anakin IS Vader and he knew where his father stood in terms of politics which is why Luke succeeded and Anakin failed.

    "I don't agree, Anakin has recieved the best training the same training in fact that Obi-wan and other less powerful Jedi recieved."

    But he never took it seriously like Luke did or else, there wouldn't be a Darth Vader.

    "The rest of your argument is speculative and not based on a movie. Obi-wan has friends an relationships outside the Jedi, as did Qui-Gon."

    But none of them are Sith Lords in disguise like Anakin's "good friend", Palpatine.

    "I agree that Anakin harbored too many darkside emotions, but he also had the training and force talent to recognize those feelings and to control them if he so wanted."

    But he never did recognize his negative emotions for the very reason he said himself, he's a "slow learner" and having Palpatine giving him guidance made matters worse.

    "My speculation is that Anakin has learned through the years, probably when he was a boy on Tatooine, that he gains power from these darkside emotions and secretly feels he can control them since he's the Chosen One."

    How can Anakin possibly come to that conclusion when he only had his first taste of the Dark Side when he slaughtered the Tuskens? The only reason he has complete faith in his abilities is because of all the talk he's been hearing from Palpatine over the years.

    "Doesn't Anakin have the same epiphany when he kills the Tuskens? Hasn't he seen personally what the Dark Side can do to a person, HIMSELF..."

    No, because if he had, he would've done what Luke did which is to stop and think about what would happen if you went through and fully given into the Dark Side. Anakin obviously didn't stop and think about the consequences so he proceeded with lopping off whatever Tusken that comes his way and plus, he never had a relative for a Sith Lord like Luke had which is why he never had the pleasure of knowing what effect the Dark Side has on a person.

    "You are assuming this is a result of Palps influence, but it could be just as easily and is possibly more likely that his own incredible talent and knowledge that he's the Chosen One, has had more of an influence in this area."

    But there's no indication from Anakin throughout AOTC that he's aware of being the Chosen One and all that "I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever" talk is obviously coming from Palpatine.

    "He was with Qui-Gon when Maul attacked them..."

    Even by then, Anakin has no knowledge of Maul being a Sith Lord, not even Qui-Gon did until he was on Coruscant.

    "...and he was in the room when the Counsel tells them to go back to Naboo to find the Sith."

    But the Council referred to Maul as a "Dark Warrior, not a Sith Lord and that's the only thing Anakin would know about Maul.

    "I believe they have. Qui-Gon and Obi-wan give him advice constan
  9. Knight_Mical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2004
    star 1
    I think you gave the wrong descriptions for Anakin and Luke in terms of their training because while Anakin did have 10 years of training, it is he who suffers from teenage angst and is unsophisticated in the ways of politics and/or the darkside. If he was politically savvy, he would understand that his own view of politics(which he described to Padme) is a form of dictatorship and if he had recognize and purged all of his negative emotions, he would never have allowed them to drive him into massacring the Tuskens nor would it lead him into becoming Darth Vader. Now Luke may be a regular kid with very little training but he recognized and purged his negative emotions once he learned that Anakin IS Vader and he knew where his father stood in terms of politics which is why Luke succeeded and Anakin failed.

    No, I think your conclusions are incorrect. Anakin is not unsophisticated in politics, he deals with politics and politicians everyday as do all Jedi. The fact that he's so jaded about democracy is further proof of this. He even meets secretly w/Palpatine the Chancellor of the Repubic. He is quite aware that he's describing fascism to Padme, he plays it off as a joke, but those are his true feelings.

    He also knows his feelings are negative, a toddler knows the difference between negative and positive emotions (happy and mad). Furthermore, he states this quite clearly in the garage when confessing to the murders, "I know I'm better than this." Anakin is quite aware that he's going against the Jedi philosophy at every turn. He suggests keeping the marriage secret, because he knows it's wrong. Anakin is totally conscience of his guilt and that's why he endeavors to hides his sins from the Jedi as well as rationalizing them to himself.

    On the other hand, Luke is a farm boy on a planet that doesn't even have a government let alone politicians. I think you are missing the point of my post:, which is that Luke who has no Jedi training is able to fight the negative emotions because of his inate goodness where Anakin who has the benefit of a decade of training and political saavy does not. So to suggest that Anakin is at a disadvantage as far as training goes is untrue.

    "I don't agree, Anakin has recieved the best training the same training in fact that Obi-wan and other less powerful Jedi recieved."

    But he never took it seriously like Luke did or else, there wouldn't be a Darth Vader.

    I don't think it's a matter of him not taking it serious, he thinks he's learned everything and is better than the training. However, I do agree that he received the training and either ignored it or discounted it in favor of an easier path.

    I said: The rest of your argument is speculative and not based on a movie. Obi-wan has friends an relationships outside the Jedi, as did Qui-Gon."
    You said: But none of them are Sith Lords in disguise like Anakin's "good friend", Palpatine.


    However, Luke's own Father is a Sith Lord and I think that's a bigger influence than a friend.

    I said: My speculation is that Anakin has learned through the years, probably when he was a boy on Tatooine, that he gains power from these darkside emotions and secretly feels he can control them since he's the Chosen One."
    You said: How can Anakin possibly come to that conclusion when he only had his first taste of the Dark Side when he slaughtered the Tuskens? The only reason he has complete faith in his abilities is because of all the talk he's been hearing from Palpatine over the years.


    The same way you come to the conclusion that Palpatine has had a great influence on Anakin, evem though it isn't shown in the movie (all we see is a 1 minute converstaion. You don't know that the tusken massacre is his first taste of the darkside that could just be the first time that he loses control. His temper tantrum in front of Padme suggests that he has some very dark feelings (ie: resentment, jealousy, anger etc.).

    I said: Doesn't Anakin have the same epiphany when he kills the Tuskens? Hasn't he seen
  10. Devilanse Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 5
    Don't get me wrong--I don't dislike Obi-Wan. I just get irritated with the attitude of some folks (not you, just speaking in general) that he is all that and a bag of chips, and that Anakin should have been on his knees in front of him, massaging his feet with scented oils and kissing his toes.

    Blah. Here you go again. No, Skywalker should not have been kissing the ground where Obi-Wan walked....he should have been respectful of the mission the council sent them there to do. Its not like it was Obi-Wan's decision to not set a trap for the killer...it was the council...and even Obi-Wan must obey that.

    Had the two of them left and gone in search of this killer...those poison worms would have succeeded. Because they were hanging around Padme's building, they were able to sense the danger in the next room.

    As far as Anakin's actions being "stupid"--stupid is in the eye of the beholder, so I wouldn't say that your statement is "supported by the movie". After all, when it came down to whether or not they did need to investigate who was trying to kill Padme, Anakin was right, not Obi-Wan. And as far as "doing what he is told"--unless one is getting a paycheck, I don't put much stock in obedience as an adult, and Anakin was an adult.

    I'd have to agree that Anakin's actions bordered on stupidity. But then...who here hasn't done something stupid when they were young? Thats part of the growing process. Everyone here probably thought they knew more than their elders when they were young. I'm guilty!

    And the "paycheck" thing. I don't know much about the clergy, so correct me if I'm wrong...but...I don't think they get paychecks...but...they are expected to follow all guidelines put out for that kind of occupation.

    Anakin made a choice to follow the Jedi way. He could have not gone with Qui-Gon, and became a famous pod racer.

    We could argue these points till we are all blue in the face. The one thing that matters above all else is that Anakin getting taken down a notch is essential to his growth as a Sith lord! 8-}
  11. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "No, I think your conclusions are incorrect. Anakin is not unsophisticated in politics, he deals with politics and politicians every day as do all the Jedi. The fact that he's so jaded about democracy is further proof of this. He even meets secretly w/Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic."

    Only to hear him say what Anakin wants to hear(namely, "Your the greatest, your invincible, you'll be more powerful than Yoda, etc.") but Anakin is not even paying attention to how politicians operate like Obi-wan has which is indicated when Anakin couldn't even come up with a valid argument to support Padme and the Supreme Chancellor himself.

    "He is quite aware that he's describing fascism to Padme, he plays it off as a joke, but those are his true feelings."

    But does he really know what he's saying to her? If he does, than he would know that Padme does NOT approve of his kind of politics since he knows that she was a queen way back when he was a small boy.

    "He also knows his feelings are negative, a toddler knows the difference between negative and positive emotions (happy and mad). Furthermore, he states this quite clearly in the garage when confessing to the murders, "I know I'm better than this." Anakin is quite aware that he's going against the Jedi philosophy at every turn."

    Yet he continues to go against the Jedi philosophy and embracing his darkside emotions instead of taking cautionary steps to ensure that he doesn't flip out again like he did towards the Tuskens. That shows that Anakin is not recognizing the dangers of giving in to the Dark Side and he never will until the final hour of ROTJ.


    "He suggests keeping the marriage secret, because he knows it's wrong. Anakin is totally conscience of his guilt and that's why he endeavors to hides his sins from the Jedi as well as rationalizing them to himself."

    You can't rationalize your way out of the Jedi Code and Anakin should've known that when Obi-wan told him, "You made a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken". If Anakin is going to continue defying his Jedi vows, than that shows that he's not taking his training, the Jedi philosophy, and the Jedi order itself seriously because the Jedi are not about adventure, excitement, or acheiving ultimate power....it's about being at peace, being one with the Force, and to devote your life to helping others which Anakin, unfortunantly, is ignoring.

    "I think you are missing the point of my post:, which is that Luke who has no Jedi training is able to fight the negative emotions because of his inate goodness where Anakin who has the benefit of a decade of training and political savvy does not. So to suggest that Anakin is at a disadvantage as far as training goes is untrue."

    Your wrong because Anakin was poorly trained due to his arrogance, his lack of taking responsibility, Obi-wan not having enough faith in his padawan, and having Palpatine meddling in his training which is why he couldn't fight off his negative emotions whereas Luke was well grounded, willing to listen to his mentors, and he never had Palpidious whispering sweet poison in his ear his whole life like his father had which enabled Luke to succeed in his training and at resisting the Dark Side.

    "I don't think it's a matter of him not taking it serious, he thinks he's learned everything and is better than the training."

    That's what I'm talking about.

    Having Anakin assume that he knows everything and is better than Obi-wan and his own training only shows that Anakin is not taking his training seriously.

    "However, Luke's own Father is a Sith Lord and I think that's a bigger influence that a friend."

    But as we see in ROTJ, Luke was never influenced by his own father, in fact he chose not to be like his father since he realises what he would become by glancing at his mechanical hand and at Vader's amputated arm which enabled Luke to throw his saber away and be his own man.

    "The same way you come to the conclusion that Palpatine has had a great influence on Anakin, even though it isn't shown in th
  12. Diamondquill Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2004
    I'm just joining in here, so,

    a_g:

    Anakin says, "You're the closest thing I have to a father." Obi-Wan never tells Anakin that he's like a son to him.

    What else do you really expect Obi-Wan to say? He was pushed into this even though he never wanted Anakin as a Padawan! You, know, sometimes I get the feeling this is all Qui-Gon's fault! 8-}
  13. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    What else do you really expect Obi-Wan to say?

    Return the sentiment maybe?

    Also, put yourself in Anakin's shoes--feeling unwanted by the person who is supposed to love you and take care of you is not a good feeling, and it's a wonder Anakin didn't act a whole lot worse. Ask any kid who has been rejected by his or her parents.
  14. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    Obi-Wan did love Anakin. He just like many fathers have a tough time expressing this love to their sons through words. I am 26 years old and my father has never said it to me and he probably never will. That doesn't mean I don't know that he does.
  15. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    That doesn't mean I don't know that he does.

    A lot of sons don't have your confidence and need to hear it, however.
  16. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    But see, that's just it-Obi-Wan's SUPPOSED to be a failure when it comes to training Anakin, otherwise he'd never fall and the OT couldn't happen.

    That said, it still hurts to see it. I don't want Anakin to turn, but I know he has to.

  17. Diamondquill Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2004
    Anakin doesn't really love Obi-Wan as much as the comment says, a_g. He has a mother and we know how much he loves her. Is his love to Obi-Wan anywhere near how much he loves his mother? Does Anakin really enjoy his times with Obi-Wan as much as he enjoys his times with his mother?

    Anakin says Obi-Wan is the closest thing he has to a father. How close it that though? He doesn't have any other person like a father in his life... NONE! Of course Obi-Wan's the closest thing to a father but closest is NOT close enough!

    Sorry, forgot to add this in...

    A lot of sons don't have your confidence and need to hear it, however.

    You know, a son doesn't need confidence or anything at all to really know that his father loves him. If he is with him enough times, if he knows him well enough, he would know that his father loves him. Anakin never made the effort to want to know Obi-Wan. All he cared about was that Obi-Wan was holding him back from being a great person.

    You told us to put ourselves in Anakin's shoes, a_g, but what do you think would've happened if Anakin put himself in Obi-Wan's shoes? Even Obi-Wan could've done this, but I learned from my parents that if I put myself in their shoes and see why they say what they say, I am the one usually proved corrected in many situations.

    And, oh, yes, this is from a really long time ago, but :

    Trying to impress a girl is not a crime, and Anakin shouldn't have been humiliated for it.

    Humiliation is only humiliation if Obi-Wan is telling the truth about Anakin and Anakin was trying to hide or ignore that truth. If Anakin truly needed to learn his place, and that is what Obi-Wan said, then THAT would be humiliation. Actually, even then, why would it be humiliation? It should be a path pointing you in the direction of improvement in yourself.

    If the humiliation is a lie though-- if Anakin was saying the right thing and Obi-Wan was arguing with him unjustly, then it shouldn't have been a humiliation at all. It would just be a bunch of lies then! And lies shouldn't hurt a person, right?

  18. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin doesn't really love Obi-Wan as much as the comment says, a_g.

    How do you know? We can't get inside his head, so we have to go by what he says.

    He has a mother and we know how much he loves her. Is his love to Obi-Wan anywhere near how much he loves his mother? Does Anakin really enjoy his times with Obi-Wan as much as he enjoys his times with his mother?

    Ummm...of course not. And Obi-Wan shouldn't expect him too. His mother gave birth to him and raised him until he was nine--and during that period of his life, she was the only close companion he had. The bond between a mother and her son is strong, which is why it was beyond stupid for the Jedi to condemn Anakin for having such a bond.

    That doesn't mean, however, that Anakin doesn't recognize what Obi-Wan has done for him, or that he wasn't sincere when he said "He's like my father!" I have no reason not to believe him.

    You know, a son doesn't need confidence or anything at all to really know that his father loves him. If he is with him enough times, if he knows him well enough, he would know that his father loves him.

    Not true. The son may logically know that his father loves him, but he doesn't feel, in his heart, that he does. And for someone like Anakin who is ruled by his heart (and there is nothing wrong with that, by the way), what he feels in his heart is true is more important.

    You told us to put ourselves in Anakin's shoes, a_g, but what do you think would've happened if Anakin put himself in Obi-Wan's shoes?

    Why should Anakin do that, if Obi-Wan isn't willing to do the same thing (and for that matter, posters on this board are more willing to put themselves in Obi-Wan's shoes than Anakin's)?

    Even Obi-Wan could've done this, but I learned from my parents that if I put myself in their shoes and see why they say what they say, I am the one usually proved corrected in many situations.

    Well, good for you. In my case, I recognized that my parents did the best they could and while I greatly appreciate that, I also realize that they are human, not perfect. Which is what Anakin knew about Obi-Wan.

    Anakin never made the effort to want to know Obi-Wan. All he cared about was that Obi-Wan was holding him back from being a great person.

    How do you know?

    If Anakin truly needed to learn his place, and that is what Obi-Wan said, then THAT would be humiliation. Actually, even then, why would it be humiliation? It should be a path pointing you in the direction of improvement in yourself.

    I would feel, and have felt, humiliated any time anyone said anything to me that was remotely close to "learn your place". I took it as "You are not worthy to be near me and you are a lesser human being than I am."

    If the humiliation is a lie though-- if Anakin was saying the right thing and Obi-Wan was arguing with him unjustly, then it shouldn't have been a humiliation at all. It would just be a bunch of lies then! And lies shouldn't hurt a person, right?

    You're analyzing this as a thinking-type person, not a feeling-type. Anakin is a feeling-type, as am I. There is nothing wrong with that.

    But if someone is humiliating you, even based on a lie, it can be hurtful.
  19. Knight_Mical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2004
    star 1
    Just for the record; Anakin never says he loves Obi-Wan he says he's like a father to him. This isn't a kissy face relationship on either side, they are primarily student and teacher, commander and subordinate. This isn't two men who are going fishing together they are saving the galaxy from evil doings. You can't judge the nature of their relationship by what they say or even what they do, but how concerned they are for each other and the underlying glimpses of the depth of their friendship.

    If we were to judge relationships by what's said, then Anakin doesn't really love Padme because he never said it. Talk is cheap, Anakin says Obi-Wan is like a father but whines and complains about him constantly, showing how disloyal he is. Then when his so called father is in danger he doesn't want to go save him.

    Now I don't believe he should go save him and I dont believe Anakin's whining means he doesnt love Obi-Wan. Just like I don't believe Obi-Wan's reprimand means he doesn't love Anakin. Shoot my Mom reprimanded me all the time, and I damn sure knew she loved me and still does by the way. So all this Obi-Wan should have done this or done that is cr**. Obi-Wan did as well as anyone could with Anakin, Anakin failed not Obi-Wan.

    The bottom line is Anakin shows disrespect and is slapped down for it. In the context of the story, the life and death situation they are in, the political nuances of that situation and Obi-Wan's role as mission leader he is not only justified but required to put his subordinate in his place and reestablish his command. This is the same as if a jr officer stepped out of line in front of a foreign leader and promised something that wasn't true or unreasonable, his commanding officer would make it clear to everyone that the Jr officer was out of line and reestablish the correct perameters of the mission.

    Sorry if that's insensitive to Anakin's feelings, but Anakin wasn't too concerned about Obi-Wan's feelings when he challenged him in front of the same people.
  20. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Sorry if that's insensitive to Anakin's feelings, but Anakin wasn't too concerned about Obi-Wan's feelings when he challenged him in front of the same people.

    I suppose Obi-Wan's feelings are more important than Anakin's?

  21. Diamondquill Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2004
    How do you know? We can't get inside his head, so we have to go by what he says.

    We can't get into any charecter's head, it's true, a_g, but I do judge them by what I see on the screen. Do you notice how distracted/annoyed Anakin sounds when he says the comment? (Or perhaps he was just tired?) If so, do you also notice how Anakin later says "He's like my father" but doesn't bother to go against the council's wishes when he has so many other times. He went against Obi-Wan (and might I remind you that he called him a father ) so many times in front of the public. Yet, he doesn't bother to do so again when ordered to stay with Padme and protect her. Would a son who 'loved' his father really do that? Or perhaps Anakin was distracted when he made all his 'heart-felt' comments about Obi-Wan being the closest thing to his father?

    His mother gave birth to him and raised him until he was nine--and during that period of his life, she was the only close companion he had. The bond between a mother and her son is strong, which is why it was beyond stupid for the Jedi to condemn Anakin for having such a bond.

    Raised him until nine... and Anakin lived with Obi-Wan for--what--one more year than that? But, it is true what you say, mothers share a special bond with their sons, especially if they were all they had for each other for nine years. But what's the difference with Obi-Wan and Anakin? What other companion does Anakin have?

    Then, about the Jedi 'stealing' Anakin away from his mother as you previously said, they had to! Imagine if Anakin was on a mission of UTMOST IMPORTANCE and he gets the news that his mother's dying on Tatooine. What would he do? Abort the mission immediately and go after her. And if that was a plan by the enemies? The ENTIRE mission would have failed. The Jedi couldn't have that happen! That is why they tried to severe the bond a little between Anakin and his mother. They realized that it was already very strong when they took his test as a nine-year-old. Yet, since Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan stubbornly argued against their wishes, they were forced to accept him. Once they accepted him, though, they had to do something about that bond! Trying to break it was cruel but understandable.

    Again, IT'S ALL QUI-GON'S FAULT, AAAAH!

    The son may logically know that his father loves him, but he doesn't feel, in his heart, that he does.

    I thought love was felt by the heart , not thought by the brain!

    Why should Anakin do that, if Obi-Wan isn't willing to do the same thing (and for that matter, posters on this board are more willing to put themselves in Obi-Wan's shoes than Anakin's)?

    Do you know that Obi-Wan didn't do so? Perhaps Anakin did so too but that didn't make a difference. Obi-Wan could've 'humiliated' Anakin more by saying something much worse but he DIDN'T! For some reason, right? And that too was the THIRD time Anakin argued!

    You yourself said we can't get into the charecter's mind. You YOURSELF are assuming you know everything Anakin thinks.

    I'll get to the rest of people's post later. My parents are shouting at me to get off! Later.

  22. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Do you notice how distracted/annoyed Anakin sounds when he says the comment? (Or perhaps he was just tired?)

    Yeah, he had just left the funeral of his mother who had been tortured to death, and whom he felt he had failed to save.

    The novelization goes further into this--it says that Padme recognized that Anakin didn't want to go after Obi-Wan because he was afraid of failing to save yet another person that he loved. That is why she insisted on going to save Obi-Wan--she knew Anakin would come with her if she insisted on going, and she knew that's what he wanted.

    Or perhaps Anakin was distracted when he made all his 'heart-felt' comments about Obi-Wan being the closest thing to his father?

    There was no reason for him to make those comments if he didn't mean them.

    Then, about the Jedi 'stealing' Anakin away from his mother as you previously said, they had to! Imagine if Anakin was on a mission of UTMOST IMPORTANCE and he gets the news that his mother's dying on Tatooine. What would he do? Abort the mission immediately and go after her. And if that was a plan by the enemies? The ENTIRE mission would have failed. The Jedi couldn't have that happen!

    And you just reminded me again of why I hate the Jedi Council and their stupid Code. They're ice cubes, and they're cruel and heartless. They might as well have trained clones to do their work.

    Once they accepted him, though, they had to do something about that bond! Trying to break it was cruel but understandable.

    Nothing understandable about it. Family comes first, and they are going against that because they believe they are gods and they are the only ones who should matter.

    I thought love was felt by the heart , not thought by the brain!

    We're talking about recognizing whether or not someone loves you, not loving someone.

    Anakin did not feel in his heart that Obi-Wan loved him, although he may have logically recognized it to be true.

    Obi-Wan could've 'humiliated' Anakin more by saying something much worse but he DIDN'T! For some reason, right?

    Sure--he could have decked him and knocked his teeth out too, but he didn't. That makes it OK?

    So if I totally humiliate a student, calling him/her stupid, lazy and no-good, is that OK, since I didn't hit him or her?

    You yourself said we can't get into the charecter's mind. You YOURSELF are assuming you know everything Anakin thinks.

    No, I don't. What I am doing is basing my posts on his overall personality (which is very similar to mine) as well as the more in-depth discussion of his feelings provided by the novelization. What you are doing is trying to give Anakin's feelings for his father figure some sort of logical basis--"Well, he didn't do X, Y, and Z, so he must not have really loved him."
  23. Knight_Mical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2004
    star 1
    I said: Sorry if that's insensitive to Anakin's feelings, but Anakin wasn't too concerned about Obi-Wan's feelings when he challenged him in front of the same people.
    You said: I suppose Obi-Wan's feelings are more important than Anakin's?


    I'm stating that they are equal, You are showing by your comments that you believe Anakin's are more important than Obi-Wan's. Anakin was wrong and got reprimanded, plain and simple and to make this into more is ridiculous.

    Anakin knows that his master loves him which is clearly shown in the movie. Just as I'm sure that Obi-Wan knows Anakin cares for him. You are judging the depth of their relationship by your needs and wants, from a female perspective. Men (big surprise) are different, they would be uncomfortable by a lot of love talk. They occasionaly will tell each other they love each other and hug, but it's not an everyday or monthly occurance when the child is 20 yrs old. We also don't know how they related to each other when Anakin was younger. So can't assume that it was cold or unfeeling. Obi-Wan seems to be a caring person.

    Added to that this relationship started when the child was 9 and the emphasis is on teaching rather than nurturing. Therefore, it's unfair to judge it by a typical parent child standards.


  24. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin knows that his master loves him which is clearly shown in the movie.

    Where?

    Added to that this relationship started when the child was 9 and the emphasis is on teaching rather than nurturing. Therefore, it's unfair to judge it by a typical parent child standards.

    But Anakin needed nurturing, which is something the Jedi didn't recognize.
  25. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    The novelization goes further into this--it says that Padme recognized that Anakin didn't want to go after Obi-Wan because he was afraid of failing to save yet another person that he loved.

    The odd thing is - in the previous 2 scenes he's been giving all this big talk about how he'll save people from dying and won't fail again , and yet now suddenly he doesn't seem interested in saving Obi Wan.

    g
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.