I would smack Anakin upside the head if i was Obi-Wan!

Stealing them from their parents as infants wasn't treating them like slaves?

They don't steal children from their parents. As far as I know, they ask the parents for the children and if the parents okay it, they take the children into the Order.

And it isn't compulsory for Anakin to stay away from Shmi and Amidala. He is welcome to do it if he really wants to, but he is either going to have to resign or get expelled from the Jedi Order. And that's because the Jedi Order has a rule that forbids attachment.

Translation: If you fall in love with Padme, you're screwed.

Exactly. I have to be a computer science student to be able to use certain computer labs in my university. If I change my majors, become a say art major, then I can no longer use these computer labs.

Anakin's case is as simple as that.

Jedi Order forbids attachment.

If he wants Amidala, then he can no longer be a Jedi.

If he wants to be a Jedi, he cannot have Amidala.

What Anakin wants is to have both, and that's simply not possible, given the Jedi Order's rules, as Anakin full well knew it when he married her.

And there were no other late-arriving Jedi, that's why they couldn't decide whether to train Anakin or not. If there had been others, they wouldn't have hesitated--they would have said, "Oh, we trained So-and-so starting at age 10 and he turned out alright."

Actually, there were late-arriving Jedi, though they weren't as late-arriving as Anakin. I believe Plo Koon was taken into the Order at age four, but only because he showed a lot of discipline and dedication and convinced the Council to take him into the Order.

And his trials and tribulations were a hell of a lot different than any other Jedi--he was a slave, he knew his mother. He wasn't like the other Creche initiates stolen from their parents. They knew this, and chose to say "Forget about your mother, you can't love her while you're here" instead of having sympathy. And they paid for it.

Again, as far as I'm aware of, Jedi don't steal children from their parents.

The Jedi do forbid attachments and Anakin knows that. He has a choice between two things: mother or Jedi. He decided that he wanted to be a Jedi more than he wanted to be his mother, and that's what he did. The Jedi give him full freedom to renounce his title as an apprentice, go to Tatooine, free the slaves, free his mother, live with her, marry Amidala, become the galaxy's best pod racer, and live happily ever after. It's Anakin who chose not to go down that path. If you want to blame anyone, you should be blaming Anakin.

News flash: Obi-Wan is not God. His opinions can be questioned, and when he is in the wrong, which he was here, they should be questioned.

a_g, you seem to be having trouble understanding what we're saying. Obi-Wan is completely fallible, his opinions could be wrong, and nobody is saying that Anakin should have blindly followed him with whatever. What we are saying is that Anakin shouldn't have questioned Obi-Wan's authority in public. Especially since what Obi-Wan stated was reasonable and likely has some kind of justification behind it. If Anakin really felt that Obi-Wan was wrong, then what he needs to do is take it up to Obi-Wan in private, discuss it with him, figure out who is right and who is wrong. If Obi-Wan's being stubborn and stupid, then he needs to go to the Council and let them in on the situation.

I have had thousands of students in the past 11 years. Some of them have said much worse to me than "We will find out who is trying to kill you, Padme." And I have never, not once, said "You will learn your place" as if that student were a cockroach that deserved to be squashed.

Except that you and your students aren't like Obi-Wan and Anakin. The Jedi Order is much more comparable to the Army than anything else. I'm no genius when it comes to Army things, but I don't think people who publicly criticize and contradict their superiors are goin

 

"Except that you and your students aren't like Obi-Wan and Anakin. The Jedi Order is much more comparable to the Army than anything else. I'm no genius when it comes to Army things, but I don't think people who publicly criticize and contradict their superiors are going to fare much better than Anakin in the Army (in fact, I think they'll fare much worse, starting with a hundred runs around the grounds or something)."

Not only would they face punishments by extra runs or cleaning bathrooms and kitchens, but they also would be at risk of being court martialled. Challenging a superior officer, whether in private or in public, is insubordination and is an offense that one can be court martialled for.

 

He is welcome to do it if he really wants to, but he is either going to have to resign or get expelled from the Jedi Order. And that's because the Jedi Order has a rule that forbids attachment.

Dumb rules are made to be broken.

The Jedi do forbid attachments and Anakin knows that. He has a choice between two things: mother or Jedi. He decided that he wanted to be a Jedi more than he wanted to be his mother, and that's what he did.

When he decided that, he was ten years old and knew nothing about the Jedi other than they carry lightsabers and fly around the galaxy on heroic missions.

Do we really want to hold people to decisions they made when they were ten?

When I was ten, I wanted to be a doctor. Being a doctor would have been the wrong career field for me. Should I go to medical school anyway, because I wanted to when I was ten?

The Jedi give him full freedom to renounce his title as an apprentice, go to Tatooine, free the slaves, free his mother, live with her, marry Amidala, become the galaxy's best pod racer, and live happily ever after.

Somehow I don't think that's what would have happened if he had resigned from the Jedi and returned to Tatooine. He would still have that power, and it needed to be channeled. Either the Jedi could channel it or the Sith could--and we know who eventually did.

If Obi-Wan's being stubborn and stupid, then he needs to go to the Council and let them in on the situation.

Maybe they both could have taken it outside, but I still see Obi-Wan as far more wrong than Anakin. Anakin was trying to do the right thing, which was make sure Padme didn't have any more assassination attempts. Doing it unconventionally is not wrong.

And the Council is far more stubborn and stupid than Obi-Wan ever pretended to be.

And if the Jedi Order is comparable to the military, then, one, they should be allowed to marry--after all, the military are. And two, they should start their training as adults. A commitment like that needs to be made by an adult brain.

 

Everytime I watch this scene I cringe at Anakin's way of talking. He basically said the opposite thing from what Obi Wan had just said and in front of Padme . It is completely disrespectful of his master.

However I still think Obi Wan should have been a little more sensitive with him even if I can understand where he was coming from. Anakin was basically defying his authority in front of a public figure. Yet it was humiliating. I'm sure there were other ways to put Anakin back in his place.

After all he could have told him exactly the same thing but later on, in private .

 

Dumb rules are made to be broken.

So the rule that forbids attachment - that should have stopped an apprentice from turning to the dark side, killing nearly all the Jedi, and helping to create a dictatorship - a rule that if followed may have prevented all of that - was a dumb rule?

But that's getting off-topic.

Maybe they both could have taken it outside, but I still see Obi-Wan as far more wrong than Anakin.

I guess we're coming at this scene from two different angles.

To me, the purpose of this scene was not to show who was right or wrong; it was to show Anakin's infatuatioin with Padme; his problem with authority, and his relationship to Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan doesn't cruelly cut Anakin down, either. He states the Jedi's position first to Padme, and then must state it immediately again to Anakin. But Anakin furthers the issue by questioning Obi-Wan again, and that is when Obi-Wan has to end it. He isn't rude either; his 'you will learn your place' is more of an aside and not meant for the others to hear.

If they were equals, two Jedi Knights working together, then Anakin's 'rebellion' might have been justified. But he's not a knight; he's still an apprentice, and questioning orders is not his place, and certainly not in public. There is a time and place for such things, but in front of a representative of the Senate is not one of them.

 

Dumb rules are made to be broken.

Definitely. But in real world, people face a lot harsher consequences than what Anakin faced from Obi-Wan for breaking rules. If you think a rule is dumb, then what you need to do is get the Jedi Order to go away with the rule. But if Anakin's going to go against the rule while it's still a rule, then Obi-Wan is completely justified in doing what he did.

A student might think that a school rule saying women can't wear bras to school is stupid and ridiculous. But if she came to a school wearing only her undergarments, then the school would be completely justified in taking action against her.

When he decided that, he was ten years old and knew nothing about the Jedi other than they carry lightsabers and fly around the galaxy on heroic missions.

Do we really want to hold people to decisions they made when they were ten?

When I was ten, I wanted to be a doctor. Being a doctor would have been the wrong career field for me. Should I go to medical school anyway, because I wanted to when I was ten?

Except that Anakin still has the choice to resign his apprenticeship and go back to his mother. Anakin is no longer ten years old. He's twenty. If he wanted his mother, then he could just as easily have re-evaluated his priorities, left the Order, and gone back to his mother.

Somehow I don't think that's what would have happened if he had resigned from the Jedi and returned to Tatooine. He would still have that power, and it needed to be channeled. Either the Jedi could channel it or the Sith could--and we know who eventually did.

I'm sorry? I don't understand what you're saying here. So it's now the Jedi's fault that Anakin is a Force-sensitive? Or are you saying that if Anakin turned to the Dark Side and the Jedi killed him in the sake of the greater good, that would be a bad thing? Or are you saying that Anakin will be tempted to the Dark Side if he leaves the Jedi Order? Whatever happens is completely Anakin's botheration, not Obi-Wan's or the Jedi's. If Anakin becomes a criminal, then the Jedi will deal with him like they would deal with any criminal.

Maybe they both could have taken it outside, but I still see Obi-Wan as far more wrong than Anakin. Anakin was trying to do the right thing, which was make sure Padme didn't have any more assassination attempts. Doing it unconventionally is not wrong.

But it's not Anakin's place to go making promises. He is a Jedi and what he says and does reflects on the entire Order. He doesn't have authority over his master. The mission's goal, as Obi-Wan says it, is very clear: protect Amidala. The mission's goal is NOT to figure out who Amidala's would-be-assassins are. If Anakin thinks that it is necessary to do that, then what he needs to do is request Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council that they look into that, as well.

And the Council is far more stubborn and stupid than Obi-Wan ever pretended to be.

And if the Jedi Order is comparable to the military, then, one, they should be allowed to marry--after all, the military are. And two, they should start their training as adults. A commitment like that needs to be made by an adult brain.

But the Jedi Order has a rule saying marriage and attachments are forbidden, unfortunately, and the Army does not. That's why army people are allowed to marry and the Jedi aren't.

And I'll reiterate it: Anakin can still choose to leave the Order if he wants to get married or be with his mother. What Anakin can't do is break the rules of being a Jedi and expect to not have any consequences.

Depa Billaba

 

So rules should never be broken?

What about the rule that said African-Americans had to sit in the back of the bus? Should Rosa Parks not have broken it?

If Anakin had done as you suggested, do you think either Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council would have listened to him? No, because they were both too stubborn and too stuck on some thousand-year-old Code. Anakin was only going to precipitate any change through disobedience.

And if Anakin could leave the Order any time he wanted, why did Obi-Wan say that the commitment was "not easily broken"?

But the Jedi Order has a rule saying marriage and attachments are forbidden, unfortunately, and the Army does not.

And again, that rule is idiotic.

Or are you saying that if Anakin turned to the Dark Side and the Jedi killed him in the sake of the greater good, that would be a bad thing?

Yes. You don't think it would have been a bad thing if Luke had listened to Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT, and killed his father instead of turning him back to the Light?

Personally I'm very glad Luke didn't listen to them and went against the "traditional" Jedi way.

 

So rules should never be broken?

If Anakin wants to be a part of the Jedi order (a completely voluntary choice), he'd better like it or leave it. Your analogy to Rosa Parks doesn't apply - she was practicing civil disobedience to state her views and get a law changed. Anakin isn't trying to change anything or state his views - he's just doing things his own way and making up his own rules, because he believes that he's too good for the rules of the Jedi Order. He thinks he is a law unto himself.

If he wanted to shut Anakin up, all he had to say was "We'll discuss this later, Anakin." "You will learn your place, young one" was just degrading, mean, and cruel.

So Obi-Wan shouldn't express his views in public, and should wait until a more appropriate time? Hm, sounds familiar.

Anakin is trying to look good in front of the girl he likes. Obi-Wan is trying to keep the reputation of the Jedi Order in front of the people he's accountable to. Which is more important, the Jedi's reputation or Anakin's ego?

In Obi-Wan's place, it would have taken all my self-control not to smack some sense into his head. I think it was pretty big of Obi-Wan not to cuss him out. "And you will learn your place" is letting him off easy. You do not go contradicting your superiors or making up your own rules just to impress some girl, and if you do, you should expect some sort of comeuppance.

 

Good Post Lord_H, I agree completely.

Anakin is an extremley immature man. His behavior is sooo out of the realm of proper conduct for his circumstances that it could even indicate more serious problems, ie: Megomania. It's similar to the thrown room scene where he gets into it with Padme over his trying to exert his perceived authority over her in regards to security. He sees his role as head of security and she see's his role as being nothing more than a body guard. Again showing his inclination for having an exaggerated ideal of himself. Very good fore-shadowing by George to demonstrate his fatal flaws.

If Anakin had done as you suggested, do you think either Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council would have listened to him? No, because they were both too stubborn and too stuck on some thousand-year-old Code. Anakin was only going to precipitate any change through disobedience.

He didn't though, his disobedience accomplished nothing. Unless he was going for embarrassing himself in front of the girl he wants. The more wise practice, if you want to accomplish something without gaining permission first, is to say nothing prior to the disobedience just do it when the time is right. Like how Obi-Wan did it; he followed his orders by beefing up security, but when the assassin struck he tracked them, even if it means you have to jump out a window thousands of feet up and fly through the air. The difference being that Anakin talked big to show off and disrespected his master in the process; Obi-Wan on the other hand acted without seeking permission or blowing hot air.

And if Anakin could leave the Order any time he wanted, why did Obi-Wan say that the commitment was "not easily broken"?

I would speculate that it means that it would cost him a great deal of emotional pain to turn his back on his religion and dreams since Dooku and 19 others left the order and seem to be flourishing.

And again, that rule is idiotic.

No, that rule as seen by what happens to Anakin is very wise. And if it is idiotic by Anakin's standards then he should act like a man and leave the order. I think it's idiotic that he and Padme decide that deceit is preferrable to honesty. He could have done his duty without being a Jedi. Never will understand that part of the story.

Again, Anakin's behavior is necessary to the story. This isn't an Obi-Wan; Anakin is a troubled man with serious problems so his megomania and problems with authority should be expected. I also think that Obi-Wan has come to expect it from his student, as he indicates in his reprimand to him. I personally loved the exchange, I thought it brought depth to the relationship and very effectively highlighted the difference in personalities.

 

In Obi-Wan's place, it would have taken all my self-control not to smack some sense into his head. I think it was pretty big of Obi-Wan not to cuss him out. "And you will learn your place" is letting him off easy.

I find it interesting that you so easily put yourself in Obi-Wan's place. What would you have done in Anakin's place?

I don't think it was "big" of Obi-Wan not to cuss him out. How "big" is it of someone to use their position to make someone else feel small? Trying to impress a girl is not a crime, and Anakin shouldn't have been humiliated for it.

If Anakin wants to be a part of the Jedi order (a completely voluntary choice), he'd better like it or leave it.

Again, it's a choice he made when he was ten, and evidently something he can't just leave by saying "Hey Obi-Wan, hate you, hate Coruscant, taking Padme, kiss my ass."

The more wise practice, if you want to accomplish something without gaining permission first, is to say nothing prior to the disobedience just do it when the time is right. Like how Obi-Wan did it

Of course, because Saint Obi-Wan never does anything wrong.

So Obi-Wan shouldn't express his views in public, and should wait until a more appropriate time?

If expressing his views in public involved humiliating someone, then yes. Anakin's expression of his views did not involve humiliating anyone.

Anakin isn't trying to change anything or state his views - he's just doing things his own way and making up his own rules, because he believes that he's too good for the rules of the Jedi Order.

Did he tell you this?

Looked to me like he was just trying to state his views.

 

I find it interesting that you so easily put yourself in Obi-Wan's place. What would you have done in Anakin's place?

I would have waited and discussed the matters in private. If I truly thought that Obi-Wan was wrong, I would have taken it up with the Jedi Council. If I thought the Council was also wrong, then I would have re-evaluated my priorities and decided whether I wanted Amidala more or the Jedi Order. And I would have acted accordingly.

I don't think it was "big" of Obi-Wan not to cuss him out. How "big" is it of someone to use their position to make someone else feel small?

That's not what Obi-Wan was doing. If a teacher shouts at a student (who has been a constant pain in the neck) in the middle of a class, the teacher's not using his position to make his student feel small.

Trying to impress a girl is not a crime, and Anakin shouldn't have been humiliated for it.

First of all, it is wrong for a Jedi.

Second of all, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Obi-Wan telling Anakin to keep quiet. Anakin contradicted his authority twice and Obi-Wan said enough was enough and told his apprentice to drop the subject.

Again, it's a choice he made when he was ten, and evidently something he can't just leave by saying "Hey Obi-Wan, hate you, hate Coruscant, taking Padme, kiss my ass."

Then, that's Anakin's problem, not Obi-Wan's, not the Jedi Order's.

Say I love my sister and I love my brother, but they don't like each other. If I can live with only one of them, then I have to choose between who to live with. What I can't do is moan and complain about the unfairness of not being able to live with both of them; I especially can't blame it on one of them.

Say I got a job as a computer programmer, but I don't like the fact that I have to debug (which is what computer programmers do more than half the time). I can either become something else (say, a manager), or I can learn to live with debugging. What I CAN'T do is demand my employer to hire me as a computer programmar who doesn't do debugging.

Of course, because Saint Obi-Wan never does anything wrong.

Okay, this is just sitting out there, a_g. What does this have to do with anything?

If expressing his views in public involved humiliating someone, then yes. Anakin's expression of his views did not involve humiliating anyone.

So Obi-Wan is no one?

So rules should never be broken?

What about the rule that said African-Americans had to sit in the back of the bus? Should Rosa Parks not have broken it?

No, I did NOT say that rules shouldn't be broken. What I said was that if you break them, then you're going to face consequences. If you think that there's nothing wrong with stealing and therefore steal money from somebody else to show your views, then the police would be completely justified in taking action against you. That's not to say you can't do it - several people thought that they were right and willing to go to jail for it. But you can break rules only at your own risk.

If Anakin had done as you suggested, do you think either Obi-Wan or the Jedi Council would have listened to him? No, because they were both too stubborn and too stuck on some thousand-year-old Code. Anakin was only going to precipitate any change through disobedience.

I don't know. I sincerely think that if Anakin had actually reasoned with them, they would have agreed with him and sent out a search party. I would also understand them if they didn't send out anyone because they are stretched thin. (However, I wouldn't agree with the Order if they rejected Anakin's ideas for no reason whatseover.)

And again, that rule is idiotic.

It's not, actually. The Jedi should be dedicated first to the Force. Attachments bring in other dedications, dedications that might interfere with their dedication to the Force. That might lead to a great number of problems.

And what would happen if their significant other turns out bad? Will they be able to take action agains

 

If a teacher shouts at a student (who has been a constant pain in the neck) in the middle of a class, the teacher's not using his position to make his student feel small.

But if the teacher shouts at the student, calls the student dumb, lazy, a moron, etc., or tells the student to "learn his place", then he is using his position to make the student feel small.

Obi-Wan could have taken the more diplomatic approach, the more humane approach, and not humiliated Anakin in front of the girl he had a crush on.

Just for the record I think my dad is the most wonderful man who ever lived next to Jesus of Nazareth and Ghandi--however, when I was in high school, he humiliated me in front of a guy I liked, and I've never forgotten it. Forgiven, yes, but I still remember how horribly degrading it was.

Anakin contradicted his authority twice and Obi-Wan said enough was enough and told his apprentice to drop the subject.

Ummm...no. Obi-Wan didn't say "drop the subject." "Drop the subject" would have been OK. Obi-Wan said, "You will learn your place."

Then, that's Anakin's problem, not Obi-Wan's, not the Jedi Order's.

How is it Anakin's fault if he is trapped into a commitment he made when he was ten years old, a commitment "not easily broken"--in other words, he can't leave?

Okay, this is just sitting out there, a_g. What does this have to do with anything?

Because Knight and a few other posters are acting like Obi-Wan is some sort of saint who never does anything wrong, and if Obi-Wan says "Jump", Anakin is supposed to ask "How high?", and if Obi-Wan jumps, Anakin is supposed to kiss his ass when it's in the air.

So Obi-Wan is no one?

Anakin dared to tell Obi-Wan that he might be...*gasp*...imperfect. He didn't tell him to "learn his place".

I sincerely think that if Anakin had actually reasoned with them, they would have agreed with him and sent out a search party.

You mean the way they listened to him and let him go after his mother?

And what would happen if their significant other turns out bad? Will they be able to take action against them? And what about the image of non-partiality (neutrality)? If each Jedi has a spouse, a bunch of children, and grandchildren, and there ever comes a time when the Jedi need to rule in a situation concerning these people....

A lot of folks in other professions requiring impartiality--judges, cops, etc.--are allowed to have families.

It would have meant that Vader wouldn't have turned back (which would be really sad), but if Luke had killed both Vader and Palpatine, what's the problem?

So patricide would be OK with you?????

Do you seriously think that the Jedi should have tried to turn Dooku and Maul to the Light Side?

If it could have been done, yes.

Obviously if Mace had done the same thing, then the Clone Wars wouldn't have started.

Why would that have been bad? "Wars make not one great."

 

Training a Jedi is much different than teaching a high school class or even training a solider. There's a good reason attachments are forbidden to the Jedi.

 

So why didn't Luke forbid them in the EU?

And how are Jedi supposed to be able to relate to the people they're helping if they don't understand the common people's attachments?

 

Why would they want to relate? They are diplomats and negotiators, they deal in the political arena. Politicians aren't the common people. Due to the political edge to thier role, any hint of preference would cost them their credibility and nuetrality.

They also need to maintain an aura of mystery and distance from the common people for protection and to enhance their influence. As Yoda and Mace's conversation hints at; "If know they do our weakness number of our enemies will grow. " ((paraphrasing)). They rely on their legendary power to shield them from their enemies. They are vulnerable due to their numbers, and their decreased Force power.

 

But if the teacher shouts at the student, calls the student dumb, lazy, a moron, etc., or tells the student to "learn his place", then he is using his position to make the student feel small.

Obi-Wan could have taken the more diplomatic approach, the more humane approach, and not humiliated Anakin in front of the girl he had a crush on.

I think saying 'you will learn you place' is a far cry from calling someone a moron. Anakin did need to learn his place; he was contradicting his elder and basically insulting the Senator's security by saying protection was beneath a Jedi. He needed to learn his place both as a padawan and as a Jedi.

Obi-Wan did try the diplomatic approach: twice he politely but firmly says that they won't be exceeding their mandate before he turns it into a reprimand with, "We will not go through this exercise again. You will pay attention to my lead." Anakin - instead of dropping it as he's been asked - ingnores this and openly questions Obi-Wan and the Council's orders. Obi-Wan really doesn't have an option at this point but to quite firmly tell Anakin that they won't be exceeding the mandate (the third time he's had to say this) and that Anakin has to learn how to behave.

I see this as neither cruel nor degrading. Anakin had his chance, his warning, and he ignored it.

So why didn't Luke forbid them in the EU?

I don't think the 'no-attachment' rule had been invented when the EU with Luke was written.

And how are Jedi supposed to be able to relate to the people they're helping if they don't understand the common people's attachments?

There's a difference between compassion and attachment. Compassion - which Anakin tells us in central to being a Jedi - is how a Jedi relates to and understands those he helps. Attachment would just be taking that feeling a step too far, to a point where his feelings for the other person would begin to conflict with his duty. I think a Jedi would understand attachments even if they are not allowed them.

 

All hail Depa and Lord H, for brilliant posts! Good job guys, I'll try to follow you up.

A-G: You know there is an appropriate time and place for certain things. It's fine that Anakin disagreed. It's not fine that he did so in public, in front of a Senator, and in the least diplomatic way possible. It was out of Obi-wan's hands at that point.

This is not like chauvinistic men trying to control women. This is life an employee displaying gross insuboridination. And that's how Obi-wan handled the issue. Institutions like that can temporarily take on greater importance than its individual members. For instance, let's examine the Islamic faith. In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, Islam was put in a position where it might be seen in a very bad light? Why? Because Osama Bin Laden chose to express his opinion in a way that was inappropriate, and in doing so represented that entire religion. Other clerics had the responsibility to their faith to let the world know that that was not the position that Islam held, and that they did not, as an insitution (as a religion, that is) agree with Bin Laden's actions. So when they began denouncing the attacks, they weren't concerned about sparing his feelings. They were concerned about getting their point across, as they should've been.

Now, it is not my intention here to start a discussion about current events. Nor is it my intention to imply that Anakin is like Osama Bin Laden. I think it would be inappropriate to try and even make those comparisons. I simply want to give a "worst case scenario" of allowing false perceptions to be created by outspoken members that break from the larger message, and do so in ways and at times that are inapprorpriate. I apologize if I cause any hurt by attempting to use this exmaple. If it doesn't work, just drop it, although I am interested to see your response.

 

So why didn't Luke forbid them in the EU?


Because, Luke knows what he is doing. He is the greatest Jedi and the Chosen One.

Anakin had the right idea. Many of the rules the Jedi had were just plain bad. It is Anakin's fear a long with these rules that create Darth Vader and destroy the Jedi.

Obi-Wan's failure is now complete.

 

It was Anakin's emotional attachments that led, in part, to his turn to the Dark Side. The rule wasn't stupid, there was an obvious reason for it.

 

But if the teacher shouts at the student, calls the student dumb, lazy, a moron, etc., or tells the student to "learn his place", then he is using his position to make the student feel small.

Except that Obi-Wan didn't call Anakin any of these things, neither did he use his position to make Anakin feel small. What Anakin did was undermine his authority, and Obi-Wan retaliated that with telling Anakin that he does not enjoy that power.

Obi-Wan could have taken the more diplomatic approach, the more humane approach, and not humiliated Anakin in front of the girl he had a crush on.

Obi-Wan was very humane with Anakin. It was Anakin, if anyone, who humiliated Obi-Wan by trying to impress the girl he has a crush on. Might I also remind that Anakin has no business having a crush on anybody sine he's a Jedi?

Just for the record I think my dad is the most wonderful man who ever lived next to Jesus of Nazareth and Ghandi--however, when I was in high school, he humiliated me in front of a guy I liked, and I've never forgotten it. Forgiven, yes, but I still remember how horribly degrading it was.

I won't comment on it until I know more details - like why exactly he humiliated you.

Ummm...no. Obi-Wan didn't say "drop the subject." "Drop the subject" would have been OK. Obi-Wan said, "You will learn your place."

Anakin was having delusions of granduer that he could promise Amidala things that Obi-Wan already told her he couldn't promise and Obi-Wan put Anakin in his place.

How is it Anakin's fault if he is trapped into a commitment he made when he was ten years old, a commitment "not easily broken"--in other words, he can't leave?

Let's see. He can still leave the Jedi Order? And btw, if it really were that impossible to leave the Jedi Order...then, well, I wonder how the Lost Twenty, including Dooku, ever left. Judging from the films and the character descriptions over at sw.com, it appears as if they just left when they felt like it.

Because Knight and a few other posters are acting like Obi-Wan is some sort of saint who never does anything wrong, and if Obi-Wan says "Jump", Anakin is supposed to ask "How high?", and if Obi-Wan jumps, Anakin is supposed to kiss his ass when it's in the air.

PPOR? (I haven't read the entire thread and I'm afraid I don't have the time to go fishing, so I'd appreciate it if you posted the quotes.)

Anakin dared to tell Obi-Wan that he might be...*gasp*...imperfect. He didn't tell him to "learn his place".

That was not what Anakin did. Exactly how was Obi-Wan imperfect when he said that they would not exceed their mandate, which was protecting Senator Amidala?

And, btw, that's not what Obi-Wan (and me) got ticked off at, either. It's the way and time and place where he said it that makes the whole scenario a disaster. I would have had no problem if Anakin told Obi-Wan he had no clue what he was talking about as long as it was in private. In front of the Senator, Anakin has no authority whatsoever to contradict Obi-Wan.

You mean the way they listened to him and let him go after his mother?

But they had a reason to not let him go to his mother: no attachments. Anakin had a choice to either be with his mother or come to the Jedi Order. He was ten when he made the choice, but he's twenty now. If he wants his mother, then he is completely free to leave the Jedi Order and go be with his mother. But he doesn't do that.

A lot of folks in other professions requiring impartiality--judges, cops, etc.--are allowed to have families.

Except that these people don't have telepathic, telekinetic, and mindtricking powers.

So patricide would be OK with you?????

I'm just going to come out and say this, because in the times I've argued with you, you did this a lot: Don't generalize.

Say a man is trying to kill a woman, the woman pulls out a gun out of her purse, and shoots him. If I defend the woman's actions, am I suddenly defe

 

But, it is these same kind of attachments that lead to the Empire being destroyed.

Luke saved his father with these same kind of attachment by not following the rules that Yoda and Ben were trying to place on him.

Without these rules, Anakin's fear of loss would not have turn to hate for the Jedi Order. If the Jedi had let Obi-Wan and Anakin go save his mother a few years earlier then, she would not have died. Anakin would not have fallen to the Dark Side as he slaughtered Tusken, and in turn would not have become Darth Vader and helped kill all the Jedi.

It all comes from the Jedi trying to make Anakin into something he is not.

 

It all comes from the Jedi trying to make Anakin into something he is not.

And that's the core problem.

Anakin was way too old when he entered the Jedi Order, the Jedi Order's rules were way too strict. Anakin also had huge problems controlling his temper. And his life as a slave didn't help matters much. (I personally believe that it worked with Luke because the rules were much, much more relaxed; his personality is different; he wasn't as dependent on relationships as Anakin; Jedi were in no way responsible for killing his parent-figures.)

By the time Anakin entered the Jedi Order, he already had strong attachments. It's one thing to tell people who don't have attachments to not make new ones, and something else entirely to tell people who already have strong attachments to break them.

That's why the Council didn't want to train Anakin, and if Qui-Gon hadn't made Obi-Wan make that stupid promise, and if Obi-Wan hadn't made that stupid promise (happy, a_g?), things might have turned out differently.

As an example) It's relatively easy to make children who don't suck their thumb to not suck their thumb; it's harder to make children who do suck their thumb to not suck their thumb.

Obi-Wan and company were like people who didn't suck thumbs. Anakin wasn't. But it's ridiculous to ask that the rules be changed just for the sake of Anakin. 9999 Jedi aren't being allowed to have attachments, meet their parents, marry, or have children. Why should they allow Anakin to do so?

It goes like this: when I was ten, I wanted more than anything else to become a surgeon. I went through high school, doing everything to get into medical school. Except that I didn't really want to be a surgeon. That's not where my talents lay, and I wouldn't be happy cutting people open no matter how much like helping them. I changed my mind in my senior year of high school and went toward computer science, instead, which indeed is a field that I enjoy. I wasn't happy about it for long months. My parents weren't happy about it. My friends weren't happy about it. The people I volunteered for weren't happy about it.

And there are things that I miss about not being a surgeon: the pay, for one thing (and it's an important thing). But I made the choice to go from medicine to computer science. I'm happy where I am.

Same goes to Anakin. He decided when he was ten that he wanted to become a Jedi. He spent ten years training to become a Jedi. But he now has two things that he also wants: Padmé and Shmi. What Anakin needs to do is evaluate his priorities and act accordingly: does he want to be a Jedi more or does he want to be with Padmé and Shmi? If he wants to be a Jedi, then he needs to make an effort to forget Padmé and Shmi. If he wants to be with Padmé and Shmi, then he needs to resign and go be with them.

Otherwise, it'd be like me demanding to get paid $200,000.00 per year by being a computer programmer.

In the end, it's Anakin who made his choice when he entered the Jedi Order. If the Jedi didn't try to turn Anakin into (their definition of) a Jedi, then what should they turn him into and why would they turn him into it?

I went off on a little tangent in the middle, but there it is.

Depa Billaba

 

Anakin was way too old when he entered the Jedi Order

True, but, Luke was about eight years older atlest. He turned out just fine.

I do agree with you about the rules being to strick.

 

FuzzyRat: I never said that Anakin's age itself was the cause of his downfall.

Anakin's age, temperment, personality, and life experiences combined with the Jedi Order's rules and Obi-Wan's teaching methods led to his downfall.

Ben never changed Luke into anything - all we see Ben doing was teaching Luke about the Force.

In the Prequels, however, Obi-Wan and company actually try to make Anakin break free of attachments, relationships, and emotions. (As an aside, I don't fault the Jedi for doing it at all. The Jedi are supposed to act certain way; that's what they taught all their apprentices and that's what they taught Anakin. It seems to be fairly successful, considering only 20 people ever left the Jedi Order before Anakin.)

Depa Billaba

 

Anakin's age, temperment, personality, and life experiences combined with the Jedi Order's rules and Obi-Wan's teaching methods led to his downfall.


His temperment is the big one. (IMO) At age 10 he had not had that many life experiences.

If you believe that Anakin brings balance to the Force, then you must know that the Jedi Order is messed up. It's rules show this and it's destruction is the proof.


Sadly, we really don't see any of Obi-Wan teaching methods. So I can't say on this one.