I would smack Anakin upside the head if i was Obi-Wan!

I watched the same version, and Obi-Wan did indeed say that to Anakin--and "You will learn your place" translates to "You are an inferior being, you are less than human, you are not worthy of having an opinion, and you are to sit there like the wall decoration that you are and never open your mouth."

No, it basically translates to, "I am in charge here, you are not. Don't presume to interpret our orders in your own way."

 

That is not how it sounds--it sounds degrading and humiliating. "I am in charge here, you are not" is not degrading and humiliating. It does not squash the person's dignity as a human being--"You will learn your place"--meaning "You will learn your place as an inferior being to my infinite superiority"--is crushing a person's dignity.

 

meaning "You will learn your place as an inferior being to my infinite superiority"--is crushing a person's dignity.

But Obi-Wan never said it in that way. He said it more like the way I just said. And if Obi-Wan was so horrible and crushing Anakin's dignity, then why aren't you railing at Padme for doing the same thing to Anakin on Naboo?

 

Telling someone to zip it, which is degrading actions, and telling someone to "learn their place", which is degrading them as a person, are two different things.

No, telling someone that they will learn their place is NOT degrading them as a person. Even if it is, it's completely justified if it were relevant. If you call a liar a liar, then that's not degrading them even though calling a person who doesn't lie a liar is.

In the same way, saying that somebody is a jerk is not degrading a person if he is jerk while if he isn't a jerk and you called him a jerk, then that is degrading the person.

In the same way, if Anakin did indeed forget his place and Obi-Wan told him that he'll learn his place, then that's not degrading him, but rather stating a fact.

I do--it is humiliating, and degrading to the person you say it to.

There are ways to reprimand people for their actions without telling them "You are not as much of a person as I am."

That's not what Obi-Wan said. What he said was that Anakin does not have the authority to go making those promises at this particular moment. It has nothing to do with Anakin as a person. It has to do with Anakin as a Jedi Padawan and what Anakin the Jedi Padawan can and cannot do.

I was no angel child and I was reprimanded. But I was never treated like I am somehow on an inferior status as a human being.

But Obi-Wan didn't treat Anakin as if he were an inferior person. However, Anakin is inferior to Obi-Wan in rank. Anakin's a Padawan. Obi-Wan's a Jedi Knight. And Obi-Wan told him that.

Earned it for what? Wanting to protect Padme?

No, for blatantly contradicting Obi-Wan when he had no power to do so.

That is not his "place". Anakin is a human being.

As a Jedi Padawan, yes it is.

I'm a human being, but that doesn't mean I can go contradicting my superiors or giving official statements that I have no power to give. If they were to shout at me or court-martial me for my ridiculous behavior, then they would be completely justified in doing it, because I simply had no authority to do it and my behavior might as well have led to disasters.

And your superior was WRONG. The couple of times someone has done that to me, I have complained to their superiors and let everyone I know how horrible the person is to work for.

She's NOT wrong. That's the difference between shouted at for doing something you did - and you did wrong - and being shouted at for something you didn't do.

That's why it's completely okay to send criminals to jail when it's not okay to send innocent people to jail.

I was under the impression that Anakin would find out who was trying to kill her whether the Jedi wanted him to or not--and as far as the "we", he was probably assuming that Obi-Wan would do the sensible and intelligent thing and try to help him.

When Obi-Wan already told him that he wouldn't do it? Right.

But Anakin still can't do that a_g, simply because he's a Jedi and what he says in uniform or not is going to almost always be taken as him saying it as a Jedi. Besides, they are officially on mission to protect Senator Amidala. Whatever he says dealing with her security IS going to be taken as him saying it as a Jedi. And Anakin has no power to make that promise to Amidala, especially when his master already said no.

And if your parents were willing to throw you away over something like that, it would be their problem and their loss.

Yeah, maybe I'm irrationally wanting to marry a murderer and a rapist and my parents are trying it as a last effort. Don't generalize - just because your parents say that doesn't mean that they love you less than parents who don't do that.

Conditional love is not even worth having--and that's what Anakin was getting from the Jedi. "We're your family if you fit into our mold. But you're not allowed to form attachments to the people who accept you for who you are--that might mess up our system."

The Jedi O

 

And if Obi-Wan was so horrible and crushing Anakin's dignity, then why aren't you railing at Padme for doing the same thing to Anakin on Naboo?

Because Padme didn't tell Anakin "You will learn your place." If she had, I would be railing at her.

I thought she treated him like crap but not in the same way Obi-Wan did--and I thought hers was more insensitivity than it was deliberately trying to degrade him.

In the same way, saying that somebody is a jerk is not degrading a person if he is jerk while if he isn't a jerk and you called him a jerk, then that is degrading the person.

So why aren't we allowed to call people here "jerks" without being banned for flaming?

There are people on these boards who I think are jerks, and therefore, by your definition, I should be able to call them jerks because it wouldn't be flaming--it would be stating facts.

I think there's a reason we're not allowed to do that though--we are only allowed to argue points, not degrade people. It doesn't matter whether we think we're telling the truth when we say someone is a jerk.

That's not what Obi-Wan said.

It is essentially what he said.

But Obi-Wan didn't treat Anakin as if he were an inferior person.

Saying "You will learn your place"--which is half a sentence, the other half being "beneath me"--is treating him as an inferior person.

I'm a human being, but that doesn't mean I can go contradicting my superiors or giving official statements that I have no power to give.

I would argue with George W. Bush, or even with Jesus of Nazareth himself, if I thought they were wrong.

She's NOT wrong. That's the difference between shouted at for doing something you did - and you did wrong - and being shouted at for something you didn't do.

If you choose to allow yourself to be degraded and humiliated in public, that's your business. As for me, I won't accept that kind of treatment. There is a right and a wrong way to correct someone. I will accept correction, but not public degradation and humiliation.

When Obi-Wan already told him that he wouldn't do it? Right.

So Obi-Wan was being an idiot and Anakin held a false hope that he would change his mind.

And Anakin has no power to make that promise to Amidala, especially when his master already said no.

If he thought he could fulfill it on his own, he was within his rights to make it--just as Qui-Gon was within his rights to tell the Council he would train Anakin with or without their approval.

Yeah, maybe I'm irrationally wanting to marry a murderer and a rapist and my parents are trying it as a last effort. Don't generalize - just because your parents say that doesn't mean that they love you less than parents who don't do that.

Parents who love you will not desert you--period. Parents who do desert you aren't worth knocking yourself out for.

The Jedi Order isn't in the business of loving people. Or have we forgotten the "no attachments" principle?

As I said, they might as well build droids or train Kaminoan clones.

Besides, I'm afraid I don't agree with you about conditional love. The reason you love somebody is because you like what they are. If they stop being what they are, then continuing to love them is beyond stupid.

If you married someone because of x, y, and z (and those are the ultra-main things). And then the person stopped being x, y, and z, then why would you continue loving him?

That's why I don't have any problem with people who, upon realizing that their spouses are committing adultry, take divorce.

Wrong. I would continue loving my husband, or my parents, or my brother and sister, no matter what they did. I don't love them for x, y, and z reasons--I love them for who they are. That's what love is. I don't want anyone loving me who is only going to love me if I fit into their particular mold. Love me for who I am or don't love me.

That doesn't mean I think people who are being abused or

 

And you know this how? You were there?

Yes, i was. I was there. This really happened. I was there.

Because it certainly wasn't indicated anywhere in the movie or the novelization, unless you count "We will not go through this exercise again"--which could have meant it happened once before, maybe.

Wasn't indicated anywhere else in the movie or Novelization? Bull.

Besides, even if you were right, it doesn't matter--there is no excuse, none whatsoever, for degrading someone as a human being, for telling someone "You aren't worthy to sit in the room with me."

You are really blowing this out or perportion. Did Obi-Wan just tell Anakin to **** off? Did he ever? No, he didn't. And i don't see any reason why you are acting like he did or anything similar. I think you would do the same as Obi-Wan in a situation where your Padawan would be jerking off promises he had no idea if he could keep. OBI-WAN DIDN'T DEGRADE ANYONE!

 

Oh, and by the way, you will love this.

 

I have the screenplay--I've seen that before. What's your point?

I like the way Anakin acted in that scene, BTW. Very daring.

Wasn't indicated anywhere else in the movie or Novelization? Bull.

PPOR.

You are really blowing this out or perportion. Did Obi-Wan just tell Anakin to **** off? Did he ever? No, he didn't.

"You will learn your place [which is inferior to me as a human being]" is the equivalent of "**** off."

And i don't see any reason why you are acting like he did or anything similar.

Because "You will learn your place" is the equivalent of "You are less of a human being than I am."

I think you would do the same as Obi-Wan in a situation where your Padawan would be jerking off promises he had no idea if he could keep. OBI-WAN DIDN'T DEGRADE ANYONE!

Try reading my previous posts. As I have said multiple times, I would never, I repeat, never, say such a horrible, insulting thing to a student of mine, no matter what they did. And my students have said a whole lot worse to me than "We will find out who is trying to kill you, Padme".

OBI-WAN DEGRADED ANAKIN AS A HUMAN BEING.

 

a_g: I watched the same version, and Obi-Wan did indeed say that to Anakin--and "You will learn your place" translates to "You are an inferior being, you are less than human, you are not worthy of having an opinion, and you are to sit there like the wall decoration that you are and never open your mouth."

I understand it then that this is what you what you believe Obi-Wan was in fact saying to Anakin. And I believe that this discussion is not going to go very far because several people on this thread seem to be coming at that statement from an entirely different angle. At the very least we're going to have to agree to disagree.

For me, when Obi-Wan said "you will learn your place" I didn't see it as degrading. You seem to be viewing that phrase as the same way men used to tell women, or whites used to tell blacks that they were inferior. I don't see the line like that, and I don't think Lucas meant for the line to be taken that way. To me, Obi-Wan is telling Anakin that he's going to learn his role as padawan to a master and Council, and his role as humble Jedi to the Republic. I don't think Obi-Wan is telling Anakin that his opinion is unwanted; it's the tone and time of the opinion that he was objecting to. I've said this earlier, but if Anakin had been a knight, Obi-Wan might not have had a problem with him interjecting his opinion.

If I remember correctly, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had a similar argument in TPM. Obi-Wan ended up apologizing to Qui-Gon over questioning Qui-Gon's judgment concerning Anakin. I believe he even says, "It was not my place to question you." Obi-Wan certainly isn't making himself and his opinions inferior; he was acknowledging that as a padawan, and Qui-Gon being the master, Obi-Wan should have known when not to interrupt.


I took these lines directly from the AOTC line by line thread, but this is how I see the conversation went:

Padmé: I don't need more security, I need answers. I want to know who's trying to kill me. She's requesting something.

OBI-WAN: (frowning) We're here to protect you Senator, not to start an investigation. He makes it known that the Jedi are there for protection only.

Anakin: We will find out who's trying to kill you, Padmé, I promise you. Anakin openly contradicts Obi-Wan's previous statement, and the Council's orders.

OBI-WAN: We will not exceed our mandate, my young Padawan. Obi-Wan makes it clear to Anakin that they will be protecting only (the second time he's said this).

Anakin: I meant that in the interest of protecting her, Master, of course. Instead of acknowledging what Obi-Wan has said, Anakin justifies his own statement - and hints that he still plans on breaking the rules.

Obi: We are not going through this exercise again, Anakin. You will pay attention to my lead. Obi-Wan takes on a firmer tone, reprimanding Anakin, and asserting that Anakin is supposed to follow Obi-Wan in this situation. His statement also hints that this is not the first time a subject like this had come up.

Anakin:Why?

Obi-wan:What? In perhaps the most awkward moment, Anakin directly contradicts and challenges Obi-Wan's authority - for the third time. Even Jar Jar gulps nervously, as if he knows that Anakin is out of line.

Ani: Why else do you think we were assigned to her if not to find the killer? Protection is a job for local security, not jedi... It's overkill, master, investigation is implied in our mandate. Anakin wisely seems to quickly change the meaning of his earlier 'why' and turns a question of following Obi-Wan's lead into a question about their implications of their mandate. But he is still contradicting Obi-Wan, he is still not following his lead (which Obi-Wan seems to be trying to teach him here), and he even adopts an arrogant tone concerning Jedi and simple local security. Anakin is clearly insolent here.

Obi-Wan: We will do exactly as the Council has instructed. And you will learn your place, young one. Obi-Wan must r

 

Because "You will learn your place" is the equivalent of "You are less of a human being than I am."

Wrong, wrong, wrong! "You will learn your place" is the equivalent of, "Stop trying to make yourself out to be the one in charge here."

 

Degrade: To reduce from a higher to a lower rank, degree, etc; deprive of office, rank, degree, or title as punishment.

Obi-Wan clearly is not reducing Anakin's rank, he simply tells Anakin where he is ranked, ie below Obi-Wan.

 

In perhaps the most awkward moment, Anakin directly contradicts and challenges Obi-Wan's authority - for the third time. Even Jar Jar gulps nervously, as if he knows that Anakin is out of line.

But remember that when Obi-Wan dresses down Anakin with the line "you will learn your place, young one", Captain Typho has a rather uncomfortable look on his face. I believe that he is sympathizing with Anakin's predicament, especially, since he responds to Obi-Wan that he's more concerned about Padme doing something foolish than Anakin.

 

Obi-Wan clearly is not reducing Anakin's rank, he simply tells Anakin where he is ranked, ie below Obi-Wan.

And he does it in the most undignified, humiliating way possible.

Captain Typho has a rather uncomfortable look on his face. I believe that he is sympathizing with Anakin's predicament, especially, since he responds to Obi-Wan that he's more concerned about Padme doing something foolish than Anakin.

My thoughts exactly.

 

FWIW, if Anakin had contradicted him PRIVATELY, if he had argued with him then, it would be different.

But basically, he was making Obi-Wan look like an ass.
Obi-Wan was in charge, and if Anakin had any problems, he should have waited until Padme left, and THEN brought them up. That's just professional behavior.

Anakin just is immature. He's not a bad guy-at least, not yet. But he needs to be a LOT less cocky. Obi-Wan's like, "Dude, get over yourself. You're NOT 'all that and a bag of chips.'"

In other words, Anakin needed to stop being so conceited. Which he was. A nice guy, but conceited.

Hey, Luke-Luke was an even greater Jedi I'd argue, and HE needed Yoda and Obi-Wan to put the smack down on him from time to time. Remember what a jackass he made of himself when he first met Yoda?

 

Anakin just is immature. He's not a bad guy-at least, not yet. But he needs to be a LOT less cocky. Obi-Wan's like, "Dude, get over yourself. You're NOT 'all that and a bag of chips.'"

Anakin didn't go about stating his opinion in exactly the right way, and maybe he should have said, after Obi-Wan first argued with him, "OK, Master, we'll talk about this later." I still don't think it was a bad thing for him to bring up the idea of finding Padme's assassin--maybe it was a bad thing for him to push it, but that still doesn't excuse Obi-Wan insulting his dignity in return. If Obi-Wan is the master, he should have taken the high road--"We'll discuss this later, Anakin."

Obi-Wan is also not all that and a bag of chips, and neither is the Council.

Hey, Luke-Luke was an even greater Jedi I'd argue, and HE needed Yoda and Obi-Wan to put the smack down on him from time to time. Remember what a jackass he made of himself when he first met Yoda?

But I never heard Yoda telling him he needed to "learn his place".

 

Hey, Luke-Luke was an even greater Jedi I'd argue, and HE needed Yoda and Obi-Wan to put the smack down on him from time to time. Remember what a jackass he made of himself when he first met Yoda?

OTOH, Obi-Wan NEVER put the smackdown on Luke, even when he did something foolish, like going back to the Lars homestead when the stormtroopers hit the place. He treated him kindly and not harsh, like he did with Anakin. Perhaps he learned from his failure with his first padawan to be more sympathetic.

 

And he does it in the most undignified, humiliating way possible.

Obi-Wan could have reprimanded Anakin in a far more undignified and humiliating way had he really wanted to crush Anakin's dignity.

OTOH, Obi-Wan NEVER put the smackdown on Luke, even when he did something foolish, like going back to the Lars homestead when the stormtroopers hit the place. He treated him kindly and not harsh, like he did with Anakin. Perhaps he learned from his failure with his first padawan to be more sympathetic.

But Obi-Wan hadn't been training Luke for very long. He had been training Anakin for 10 years at this stage. Perhaps in the begining with Anakin he was all kind and sympathetic, but ten years of Anakin's arrogance and insubordination wore him down. In any case, Anakin had TWO warnings before Obi-Wan had to put his foot down. A padawan of 10 years should be able to take a hint.

Also, when Luke went back to the homestead, he hadn't agreed to be Obi-Wan's padawan. He was under no obligation to follow Obi-Wan's orders.

 

Obi-Wan is also not all that and a bag of chips, and neither is the Council.

NEver said that they were. Well, I do think that Obi-Wan IS all that and a bag of chips, but I don't think that's appropriate for this board.

At any rate, yeah, I agree, Obi-Wan DOES need to be a little different with Anakin's training, but we, who have seen the future, know this already. We know he failed to train Anakin.

However, I'm guessing this isn't the first time Anakin has done this in public, so that's why Obi-Wan's so harsh. Because yeah, he's not perfect, but he's not a complete and utter fascist, either. I think he's probably just getting fed up. At least, according to the EU, Obi-Wan was pretty lenient with Anakin-in the Jedi Quest series, he tolerates a lot from him.

And now it's probably that Anakin just needs a quick slap in the face. "Chill, Jedi Boy, you're NOT a Jedi yet, you need to learn HUMILITY." Luke needed patience before he became a Jedi-Anakin needed humility.

It's like Socrates said, "The only true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing." In other words, you're only wise when you realize that you AREN'T wise at all. Anakin needs to learn that just because he's The Chosen One doesn't make him perfect.

Also, promising Padme "we WILL find out who is out to kill you,"-that's a huge promise to make. How many unsolved crimes are out there now, even with the highest qualified experts working on them?

Besides, they were assigned to protect, not to investigate. I think he was putting Obi-Wan in a tough spot, and it's probably just the last straw for Obi-Wan.

(YEah, though, he PROBABLY should have said, "We'll discuss this later". If Anakin had continued pressing the point, THEN he should have 0wned him in public like that.)

 

Typho looks uncomfortable because those two are having an argument that clearly should have been in private. Typho is uncomfortable because the whole scene is an embrassment to the Jedi. Which is why Kenobi rebukes Anakin so harshly for doing it.

Also, this isn't just about impressing a girl. This is a matter of security. Padme's life is on the line. The way her security forces need to act is different dependent upon whether or not the Jedi will actually be investigating to find the killer. By making the promise on behalf of the entire organization that he will, he's creating false perceptions that will lead to a bad security plan. This could lead to Padme's death. So I ask you, is his impressing her so important that its worth her life and safety?

Can't his terribly over-inflated ego afford one small blow to it so that Kenobi can make the situation perfectly clear, and thus ensure the protection of the woman he claims to love?

Love is supposed to be about self-lessnes, about putting others before yourself. Strange that Anakin's version of love puts his self-image as a "cool, macho Jedi" in front of the safety of his supposed loved one. Something doesn't seem right about that whole thing to me.

 

Obi-Wan could have reprimanded Anakin in a far more undignified and humiliating way had he really wanted to crush Anakin's dignity.

And Obi-Wan could have also treated Anakin like a human being.

Perhaps in the begining with Anakin he was all kind and sympathetic, but ten years of Anakin's arrogance and insubordination wore him down.

I doubt it. We're talking about the same guy who said "The boy is dangerous" when "the boy" was in earshot.

How many unsolved crimes are out there now, even with the highest qualified experts working on them?

They don't have midichlorian counts of 20,000 plus.

This is a matter of security. Padme's life is on the line. The way her security forces need to act is different dependent upon whether or not the Jedi will actually be investigating to find the killer. By making the promise on behalf of the entire organization that he will, he's creating false perceptions that will lead to a bad security plan. This could lead to Padme's death. So I ask you, is his impressing her so important that its worth her life and safety?

But Anakin was right--they needed to find out who was trying to kill her. If Obi-Wan hadn't finally conceded and investigated, she would have died. Anakin was doing the right thing.

Can't his terribly over-inflated ego afford one small blow to it so that Kenobi can make the situation perfectly clear, and thus ensure the protection of the woman he claims to love?

He was ensuring her protection by pushing the issue of doing the right thing--finding the assassin.

Love is supposed to be about self-lessnes, about putting others before yourself.

And he was being selfless--he probably knew that Obi-Wan would smack him down like that, but he came out with what he thought should have been done (and he was right about it) anyway.

 

And Obi-Wan could have also treated Anakin like a human being.

He did. Anakin could have treated Obi-Wan with respect and acted like a Jedi rather than a spoiled child. You must have led a very sheltered life if you think this is dehumanizing. You should try going in the military, Obi-Wan's reprimand is like sweet talk next to that.

I doubt it. We're talking about the same guy who said "The boy is dangerous" when "the boy" was in earshot.

Which is proven right, he is dangerous. He also heard from Qui-Gon that he is the Chosen One, which seemed to have a much greater effect going by the huge ego the kid waves around. It's also funny that you cut Anakin such slack because he's a padawan (and I suspect like him alot), but don't when Obi-Wan makes a mistake when he's a padawan. Double standard I see.

They don't have midichlorian counts of 20,000 plus.

Or such quite a terrible record for screwing things up as Anakin does either. For him to question Obi-Wan's authority so blatently in a life and death situation is dangerous and childish. He was warned twice, but insisted in humiliating himself. I've been cut down so many times as a know it all teenager and actually learned to think before speaking after few hundred times. Part of growing up and learning to do your job well, every action has a consequence.

But Anakin was right--they needed to find out who was trying to kill her. If Obi-Wan hadn't finally conceded and investigated, she would have died. Anakin was doing the right thing.

No he wasn't. He was totally wrong. They are charged by the Jedi and the Chancellor with protecting her, that is their number one priority. Obi-Wan didn't conceed anything he saw an opportunity to catch the assassin and took it. What Anakin wanted or promised was to personally investigate who was behind the assassination attempt. Something which isn't in his authority to promise to begin with, which I'm sure Padme is fully aware of. She knows he's blowing smoke and is embarrassed for him. IN other words, Anakin was less concerned with protecting her than playing James Bond and acting like a big shot.

Who would have died? Padme? HUH NO. She was put in danger by Anakin's careless disregard for her safety to begin with. He uses her as bait. If Anakin hadn't pulled that stupid stunt, Obi-Wan wouldnt have had to jump out the window, but then there goes my favorite scene in the movie. (Totally loved the chase scene)

He was ensuring her protection by pushing the issue of doing the right thing--finding the assassin.

No he was endangering her life. He was also sacrificing his friends dignity for the sake of impressing a girl. He got what he deserved and what he needed, a dose of his own medicine.

And he was being selfless--he probably knew that Obi-Wan would smack him down like that, but he came out with what he thought should have been done (and he was right about it) anyway.

It's a demonstration of Anakin not living in the moment and his over inflated ego. He thinks security is boring and is better suited for underlings. He feels demeaned by providing security to Padme. Therefore he wants to investigate the assassination attempt rather than making sure she lives through the night.

I believe you are saying he's right because you think they need to investigate the assassination attempt. HOwever that's missing the point IMO. This is the night after the assassination attempt, therefore they need to concentrate on her living through another attempt. There isn't time to investigate at this point, they just want her to live. Anakin wants to leave her security to the ones that have failed in the past, the bomb exploded Corde died.

Obi-Wan is saying that they must do what they were assigned to do, protect Padme. He trusts the council to do whats right, and understands that they or others will investigate when and in the manner the council sees fit. Not when or how Obi-Wan or Anakin thinks it should be done.

Anakin's behavior almost got Padme killed a 2nd time. In fac

 

It wasn't about right or wrong their, a-g.

He was disagreeing with Obi-wan about fundamentally what the Jedi were going to do. It doesn't matter if what they were going to do was the wrong thing. It was more important that Padme and her security personnel, know the Jedi were going to do the wrong thing than for them to feel good about the Jedi because Anakin gave them the false impression they were going to do the right thing. Because in the former case, they can do something about it, whereas the latter, they can't.

If you disagree with an action, that's fine. But if someone's life depends on how clear you are in communicating exactly what that action is, that is not the time to tell them what you think should of been done. Its the time to tell them what will/is being done. Period.

If Anakin can't understand that, then he's not fit to work a security detail, or have any authority anyway.

 

You should try going in the military, Obi-Wan's reprimand is like sweet talk next to that.

My father was a military officer, thank you very much. So were both of my grandfathers. I know what the military is like.

It's also funny that you cut Anakin such slack because he's a padawan (and I suspect like him alot), but don't when Obi-Wan makes a mistake when he's a padawan. Double standard I see.

I never heard Anakin call a kid "dangerous", hurting his feelings.

I've been cut down so many times as a know it all teenager and actually learned to think before speaking after few hundred times.

I was cut down quite a few times as a teenager myself, and although it's been 15 years or so, I still haven't "learned" anything from the put-downs other than that I don't like being humiliated and degraded and I will not put up with such treatment.

Believe me, having someone tell me to "learn my place" would not encourage me to keep my mouth shut. I will speak any time I want to speak.

They are charged by the Jedi and the Chancellor with protecting her, that is their number one priority. Obi-Wan didn't conceed anything he saw an opportunity to catch the assassin and took it. What Anakin wanted or promised was to personally investigate who was behind the assassination attempt.

Which is exactly what he should have done. What is a better way to protect someone from an assassin than...*gasp*...catching the damn assassin? But no, Obi-Wan and the Cowardly Council want to sit on their laurels and let the assassin come to them.

Something which isn't in his authority to promise to begin with, which I'm sure Padme is fully aware of. She knows he's blowing smoke and is embarrassed for him.

PPOR.

IN other words, Anakin was less concerned with protecting her than playing James Bond and acting like a big shot.

BS. Even if he were concerned about making himself look good by playing James Bond, playing James Bond is exactly what he should have done.

Who would have died? Padme? HUH NO. She was put in danger by Anakin's careless disregard for her safety to begin with. He uses her as bait.

Sure. Anakin "using her as bait" (which was Padme's idea, not his) sent a signal to Jango and Zam to send the poisonous worms in her apartment. They stood on the landing platform below Coruscant and said, "Anakin Skywalker is trying to be James Bond and use the Senator as bait. We'd better send these poisonous worms up to her apartment."

He was also sacrificing his friends dignity for the sake of impressing a girl.

His friend was being a moron. And talk about a double standard--Anakin arguing with Obi-Wan is "sacrificing his dignity", but Obi-Wan degrading Anakin by telling him to "learn his place [as an inferior human being]" is not doing anything wrong?

He got what he deserved and what he needed, a dose of his own medicine.

His own medicine? Where in the movie did Anakin tell someone to "learn their place"?

He thinks security is boring and is better suited for underlings.

He's right. They weren't needed to provide security for her--Typho was doing just fine.

Therefore he wants to investigate the assassination attempt rather than making sure she lives through the night.

No, he wanted to find the assassin in order to make sure she lived through the night.

I believe you are saying he's right because you think they need to investigate the assassination attempt.

Damn straight.

Obi-Wan is saying that they must do what they were assigned to do, protect Padme. He trusts the council to do whats right, and understands that they or others will investigate when and in the manner the council sees fit. Not when or how Obi-Wan or Anakin thinks it should be done.

Obi-Wan needs to use his brain and stop thinking that the Council are somehow divine. He also needs to swallow his own pride and inflated ego and stop thinking that he's too good to listen to his Padawan. If

 

There's nothing wrong with conditional love a_g. What is stupid is people who stop loving you just because you eat chocolate or because you love computers. But when it comes to more serious things like the person you are (your character), then there's NOTHING wrong with NOT loving you if you change into something they simply can't live with.

Will you continue loving a politician if he becomes the exact opposite of what made you love him in the first place? Then why will you love your husband just because he's your husband?

How in the world would you continue loving a husband who cheated on you? You wouldn't live with him because your pride and dignity got hurt, but you'd continue loving him?

Unfortunately for you, I don't live like that (though, unfortunately, my parents do) - but I love my relatives as much as you do, I love my parents as much as you do, I love my friends as much as you do, and I love as much as you do.

So maybe you think that conditional love is bad, but I don't think that the Jedi are doing anything wrong with Anakin. I'd consider them stupid if they continued liking Anakin after he turned to the Dark Side and wrecked destruction everywhere.

And I find it so interesting that you think it's okay to kill your husband in some situations but NEVER okay to kill your father, unless he's coming after you with an axe.

I'm supposed to love a father who abuses me? I'm supposed to love my father if he were making my mother's life hell and having affairs with everybody in the world? I'm supposed to love my father even if he's a sadist? I'm supposed to love my father even if he's making my life hell by humiliating me in public for no reason whatsoever? I'm supposed to love him no matter what because he's my father?

Wow. I'm speechless.

Depa Billaba

 

How in the world would you continue loving a husband who cheated on you? You wouldn't live with him because your pride and dignity got hurt, but you'd continue loving him?

Yes, I would. When I told him, "I will always love you, til death do us part", that is what I meant. I keep my promises.

That doesn't mean I will continue to be his wife, but I would never stop loving him. If I were going to stop loving him, why did I bother loving him in the first place? I didn't say "I love you as long as you're X, Y, and Z". I said "I love you."

And I find it so interesting that you think it's okay to kill your husband in some situations but NEVER okay to kill your father, unless he's coming after you with an axe.

I don't recall ever saying it would be OK to kill my husband. Although if he tortured my mother to death, I'd probably feel differently.

And that's right--it's NEVER OK to kill your father, unless he's coming after you with an axe.

Let me ask you this: if you think it's OK for Luke to kill Vader, why don't you think it's OK for Anakin to kill the Tuskens who murdered his mother? Why are you so willing to defend them but you won't defend Vader? The Tuskens were just as evil if not more so.

I'm supposed to love a father who abuses me? I'm supposed to love my father if he were making my mother's life hell and having affairs with everybody in the world? I'm supposed to love my father even if he's a sadist? I'm supposed to love my father even if he's making my life hell by humiliating me in public for no reason whatsoever? I'm supposed to love him no matter what because he's my father?

Yes, you are. He is your father. He gave you half your chromosomes. You don't have to like him or even have anything to do with him, but you are supposed to love him. There's a difference.

Be speechless all you want, but as one of my great-uncles said right before he died, "When it comes right down to it, the only thing you've got in this old world is family." That's one reason I feel so strongly about Anakin and the Tuskens--he was defending his mother. If he had not done that, he would have been a lousy son.

I value family more than anything else in the world, and I have no understanding for people who would choose to turn against or reject a family member, or would not come to a family member's defense. It is completely incomprehensible to me. No one is perfect, we all have flaws, and we should be able to count on our families to stick by us no matter what.

A world where we can't do that is a world that really, really sucks, and not one I want to live in.