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I would smack Anakin upside the head if i was Obi-Wan!

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa, Mar 24, 2004.

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  1. lhasgalen

    lhasgalen Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2004
    I personally don?t agree with this assertion, and don?t see much to support it in the movies. I think he has developed a huge ego through Palp?s whisperings and his own talent. He is arrogant to the point of megomania, and truly believes he?s better, smarter than Obi-Wan and most of the councilers. The more the truth is revealed to him the more angry he gets that he?s not as strong as he believes he should be and therefore must blame somone for this, since it cant be his fault.

    Good points, all. And I agree that Anakin has a ego, but why shouldn't he? Everyone does. It's human nature, and the Jedi preach about how they fight against certain parts of their natural instincts, like anger and fear and hatred. And I agree with that, but everyone has an ego, whether ur good looking or not, strong or weak, there's always something that sets you a part. And in Anakin's case, it's his strength in the Force, his incredible abilities, and his innate flying talents. He does, admittingly, take it a little too far, but in the movies, I haven't yet seen him make any comment about how he's better than any other Jedi. On Tatooine, he just vows to become the most powerful.

    Why?

    Not because he wants to be better than other Jedi, or more powerful than his master. Nope. He makes this vow why? Because he didnt think he was strong enough to save his mother, who he loved.

    Gee, what a horrible guy.
     
  2. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    lhasgalen: I'm just wondering: do you think that a lifetime of good deeds will erase one bad deed?

    Depa Billaba
     
  3. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Ihasgalen,

    My hubby's in the air force. He's in Baghdad right now. He told me the other day, he could hear a gun battle in the street. I freaked. I asked him, how did you respond to that? He said, I just went back to business as usual, seeing as how I wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway.
     
  4. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    undomiel
    My theory is, he's been confiding in Palpatine about things he doesn't confide to Obi, and Palps has been giving him advice that runs contrary to the jedi code, advice that feeds Anakin's insecurities with false confidence, and just anything that'll extend the gap between Anakin and his jedi training. In short, Anakin's probably had more effective sith training by the time AotC rolls around, than jedi training.

    The thing is - the Anakin/Palpatine conversation was an afterthought, it was done in the pick-up shoot. Now that doesn't make it invalid, but it does say to me that Lucas hadn't really thought much about any relationship between Anakin and Palps.

    But let's assume they have had a few conversations. The way I see it is - Palpy flatters his ego, while subtly mentioning ideas about power and being the 'greatest'. I think it's only temtation tho, I don't think he's casting a spell or training him or anything because for someone to become a Sith they have to choose it. Palpy, like the Devil, can tempt and he might know what would tempt them , but he can't make them do it.

    g
     
  5. lhasgalen

    lhasgalen Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2004
    I'm just wondering: do you think that a lifetime of good deeds will erase one bad deed?

    Good question. No deeds can be erased, nor can they fully be justified by anything good or bad done in an effort to compensate. I've done my dirt, and I've had plenty of dirt done to me. No one is inherently evil, even Hitler, who in my book, constitutes everything I despise. But at one point in his life, even he wasn't evil.

    Now I won't draw comparisons with Hitler to Anakin, nor should you, because they are two radically different situations. But I've been a fan since I was 10, when I saw the Special Editions and I was hooked ever since. Not until Anakin's story was revealed did I really find myself relating to certain situations in his childhood (no father, poor). And I've been given oppurtunities, much like Anakin, to better myself (though mine havent included having a lightsaber and my own personal starfighter, but oh well). I've made mistakes, but I don't think the good I've done outweighs them, nor do the mistakes outweigh the good. I'm responsible for everything I do, just as Anakin would be. But the difference is, essentially, the larger scope. I don't know what I'd do if I was outlawed to love, or outlawed to see my own mother.

    So my question really is, is Anakin inherently evil or is a product of extreme situations?

    My older brother's in the Air Force as well, and he's already in Iraq. He's married and has been there since the start. I can appreciate what your husband's going through, and just with every other man and woman serving, I wish him nothing but the best, because when I'm over there, I hope there's people wishing the same for me.
     
  6. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Depa,

    I'm wagering that this is GL's most closely guarded secret for the film. That none of the other jedi knew the full story about Anakin's fall, and as a result, think of him only as the dreaded sith lord, Vader, lost to the dark side. The reality of his fall may be much different than the other episodes lead us to believe, especially since we are only informed of the events by those who experienced the aftermath of that fall. I agree that he envitably makes poor choices, but I can also see how he could be roped into it with Palpatine as his advisor for over 10 of his formative years.
     
  7. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    lhasgalen: Nobody is inherently evil. People only choose to be evil (evil in my opinion, society's opinion, and possibly their opinion, anyway).

    In fact, if people were born evil, then why would you put blame on them at all? A tiger eats innocent animals and innocent humans if it can get them. But are we going to say the tiger is evil? No, most people probably will acknowledge that that is its way of life.

    Depa Billaba
     
  8. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    GezVader,

    You make a good point. I don't have proof positive that GL meant to insinuate Palpatine's counselling of Anakin was ongoing and constant for the 10 years between TPM and AotC, but what a radical change in personality he underwent. If you have Hyperspace, check out the official site's description of him as a 10 year old. Massive changes. He even went beserk and slaughtered a camp full of Tuskens. Something's fishy. I'm just guessing at this point, but I'm attempting to make informed guesses or at the very least, guesses based on my understanding of the entire story so far.

     
  9. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    Undomiel: I'm not saying that I won't consider it as a possibility, but after seeing TPM and AOTC, I really don't think that Palpatine is doing anything more than giving Anakin advice. If Palpatine is "controlling" Anakin in any form or shape (mentally or through the Force), then doesn't that defeat the purpose of the entire Saga? If it isn't even Anakin's fault that he turned, then the whole OT, the whole redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and practically everything else about SW is completely pointless to me.

    Depa Billaba
     
  10. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Depa,

    I can't answer your questions cause I have no idea what GL has in mind, for certain. I only know what I've read and seen. I'm connecting the dots and they keep pointing to Palpatine.
     
  11. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    Undomiel: We'll probably have to wait until Episode III for anything conclusive, but considering everything that happened in TPM, AOTC, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, I feel that I have enough evidence to believe that Anakin isn't being controlled or manipulated by Palpatine in any way. He's just being adviced and unfortunately he seems to be listening to the advice.

    Depa Billaba
     
  12. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    On the one hand, you have Luke, who has the same faults as his father, yet he doesn't slaughter a camp of Tuskens because he's angry. He shoots at stormtroopers but they are at war, and it's just not the same as slaughtering every last man, woman and child out of anger. It's seems really extreme to me, the kind of emotional response that seems entirely out of place in a fellow who's supposedly been only subjected to the influence of the jedi.
     
  13. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    There are many things about AOTC that I simply can't understand. (Obi-Wan killed Maul but he can't even get information out of Zam Wessell? Anakin is in love with a then fifteen-year-old he saw ten years ago? Amidala is in love with somebody she saw as a nine-year-old? Shmi wasn't rescued by anyone in ten years? What in the world are the Jedi doing about the Sith??? Anakin never even looks guilty professing love to Amidala and asking her to marry him???) One of them is Anakin's reckless rage. You'd wonder what Obi-Wan and the Jedi had been teaching in ten years, what Anakin had been learning in ten years. Anakin looks barely able to contain his emotions. Nothing like Obi-Wan in TPM or even Luke in ROTJ and Luke had been training to become a Jedi for what? A year? Three years?

    Depa Billaba
     
  14. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Aye, everything's topsy turvy and upside down. People making weird decisions. Horrible disasters that are totally unnatural. Gotta be the Sith influence. (And there are a couple moments that were the result of not thinking through the situation, but sloppy method can't be attributed to his handling of the jedi, as those events are very specific and guaged carefully to fit into the rest of the story).
     
  15. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    Aye, everything's topsy turvy and upside down. People making weird decisions. Horrible disasters that are totally unnatural. Gotta be the Sith influence. (And there are a couple moments that were the result of not thinking through the situation, but sloppy method can't be attributed to his handling of the jedi, as those events are very specific and guaged carefully to fit into the rest of the story).

    Indeed. Shmi not being rescued - by Amidala if not by the Jedi - is one of the top five problems I have with AOTC. Defenders of peace and justice. Riiiighhht. And what about Amidala? You'd think she'd have the gratitude to free the woman whose son freed her planet.

    I can go into a rant about it on this thread, but it would have nothing to do with the topic and therefore I'm going to grumblingly refrain myself.

    Depa Billaba
     
  16. Knight_Mical

    Knight_Mical Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2004
    I think Obi-Wan is afraid of Anakin, a bit, and is overwhelmed, and thus tries to be too strict. That's what it's all about-he's SUPPOSED to be shown as being a failure, albeit one with the best of intentions. He was trying to compensate for his own lack of experience.


    I think the PT shows us that the guilt Obi-Wan carries in the OT is not justified. It?s the guilt any parent would feel if their child became a DV. I don?t think he?s overwhelmed, maybe uninformed (not sure how much influence Palps had, not shown in the movies). If anything Palp?s has been given too much access to a padawan learner.

    Most of the novels point out that Obi-Wan is WORRIED about Anakin, and feels inadequate as a mentor. That's part of the problem.

    Not canon therefore is irrelevant to this discussion, and definitely not shown in the movies thus far. (Can you tell I really dislike au).

    I know it seems only natural to apply the principle of personal responsibility in this situation, but to be honest, I don't think any of us would've stood much of a chance with Palpatine focusing his dark will on us - seeing as how he's the evilest and most powerful
    man in the universe, in the story. I mean, there are exceptions I suppose but if you add that Anakin's first Palpatine encounters occurred at the age of 10, the odds go up dramatically.


    I?m not sure about that. Star Wars and Anakin?s fall to me is analogous of the daily struggle of man to do good and be righteous. Temptation (Palpatine) is thrown at Man (Anakin) daily/hourly and feeds on our weaknesses, Values and Morals (Obi-Wan even Shmi) are the tools we use to defeat temptations. In this case Palpatine promised power to Anakin because that?s his strongest desire or greatest weakness and Anakin CHOSE to ignore Obi-Wan?s teachings and warnings.

    Also, at the risk of being labeled an Obi-Wan lover and Anakin hater, Obi-Wan was also tempted to fall to the darkside but resisted. I believe this is for the purpose of making it a personal responsibility and to demonstrate that the darkside?s tempations can be defeated.

    That's about as philisophical as this kid can get. Don't tell anyone it will ruin my rep.

    Undomiel,
    I think this last film will reveal how much we understand about ourselves as human beings. Our capacity to do evil or good. The extent to which environment and experience can mold our behaviors. It should be interesting on a personal level. GL has said (hearsay) that we will feel very sorry for Anakin by the time Episode III is over. I wonder just how
    he's going to pull that off, if it's true, considering how many people really think Anakin is a bad guy (although talented). I mean, how do you make Hitler's executioner look like someone to pity? That's gonna take some doing.


    Well what George?s intentions are and what?s shown on film are two different things as we?ve seen already. I believe that George has already gone past the point of making us sympathise with Anakin a reality, pity perhaps but sympathy is pretty much out of the
    question for me. George aslo changes his mind alot, he?s also said that Anakin?s fall is due to the choices he makes. That seems to indicate that he is going to be held responsible, and since this is more in line with my philosophy of life I will fall in this
    category I?m sure.

    I do,however, have sympathy for Anakin?s lot in life; slavery, the burden of a prophecy hanging over his head and Palpatine are pretty heavy crosses to bear for anyone. However, his conduct in the AOTC, diminished that somewhat. He is shown to be arrogant, dangerous, and lacking in basic compassion. He more than anyone should have compassion and humility, because of his origins.

    Granted these personality flaws in themselves do not change his burdens, however they do influence the audience to forget the why behind his behavior. Unless George can remind/show the audience these burdens or reveal his insecurities then I?m afraid he will fail to produce sympathy for his villain. Shame really because sympathy is a requiremen
     
  17. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Knight Mical,

    Well I'd agree with you wholeheartedly if I still didn't have this sneakin' suspicion that Palpatine has been after him since he realized his force potential at the end of TPM. How would a 10, 11, 12, or even 16 year old deal with not just the Devil influencing him, but standing in the flesh, right next to him, manipulating events in his young life specificially to draw him to the darkside? There's no "God" per sey in the Star Wars universe, so the only counteraction for the dark side is the light side. But the light side has to be aware that the dark side is among them before they can take precautionary measures, and they don't see the dark side influence till it's already infested the government, the Chosen One, and begins to destroy the jedi council. I believe Anakin inevitably is responsible for his own decisions, but I seriously question the circumstances that lead up to that decision. The kid was pretty much unprotected while right in the midst of the very people most capable of helping him.
     
  18. Tee-Sin_Quay

    Tee-Sin_Quay Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    The thing is - the Anakin/Palpatine conversation was an afterthought, it was done in the pick-up shoot. Now that doesn't make it invalid, but it does say to me that Lucas hadn't really thought much about any relationship between Anakin and Palps.

    *waves a dismissive hand at above comments*
    Rubbish! He had thought about Anakin and Palpatine's relationship.....but when he wrote the shooting script he'd made it too subtle, mainly because the relationship was more important to the events of EP3.
    He added the scene in Palpatine's office to change the subtly to a more clear line that Anakin was indeed friends with Palpatine and that Palpatine had been acting as a mentor-on-the-side.

    Maybe you should read the Making of book, instead of relying on your own flawed and biased thoughts.
     
  19. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    *waves a dismissive hand at above comments*
    Rubbish! He had thought about Anakin and Palpatine's relationship.....but when he wrote the shooting script he'd made it too subtle, mainly because the relationship was more important to the events of EP3.
    He added the scene in Palpatine's office to change the subtly to a more clear line that Anakin was indeed friends with Palpatine and that Palpatine had been acting as a mentor-on-the-side.

    Maybe you should read the Making of book, instead of relying on your own flawed and biased thoughts.


    I think this was in response to g's post, but let me respond any way.

    First of all, all we have is the movies to go by. You shouldn't need to look at anything other than the movies to understand what's going on in there. As far as I see in the movies, the only interaction we see between Palpatine and Anakin is one in which Palpatine is giving some advice to Anakin. Throughout the rest of the movie - minus the Tusken scene - Anakin seems to enjoy free will as much as anybody else. Even after the Tusken scene, Anakin realizes that he has done wrong and therefore seems to have control of his own mind. Therefore, considering everything I saw until now, there's enough evidence to say that Palpatine is not manipulating or possessing Anakin in any way.

    Depa Billaba
     
  20. Guinastasia

    Guinastasia Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Well, I disagree-sometimes one SHOULD break the rules-what's going on in San Francisco, for example, and Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights movement.

    But Anakin wasn't going for civil rights, he was just trying to impress a woman. The wrong reasons. And I think it was pretty mild. I think BOTH of them were kind of in the wrong-Obi-Wan should have said, "We'll discuss this later, Anakin", and then, if Anakin continued to argue, dressed him down. And Anakin should have brought it up later.

    Because both of them were being rude, at least to Padme and her people. I would have wanted to fall through the floor at that point. Then I would have sent the story to EtiquetteHell.com

    So if I were PADME, I'd probably have wanted to hit both of them. I think I'd have gave a little cough and tried changing the subject.
     
  21. SLR

    SLR Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Depa, I don't think anyone was arguing that Palpatine was possessing or controlling Anakin. I think what they are arguing is that Palpatine had been corrupting Anakin. anakin is still responsible for his fall. They are just saying that Palpatine was an influence in his fall.
     
  22. Tee-Sin_Quay

    Tee-Sin_Quay Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    First of all, all we have is the movies to go by.

    Well thats just stupid, you don't need to limit yourself to just the movies. But then that would hurt your argument wouldnt it, besides its not like I'm going to the EU, I'm going to words that Lucas himself, the CREATOR, has spoken.

    You shouldn't need to look at anything other than the movies to understand what's going on in there.

    Again it would harm your argument otherwise, right?

    As far as I see in the movies, the only interaction we see between Palpatine and Anakin is one in which Palpatine is giving some advice to Anakin.

    Yes and what exactly is your point? Nowhere else in this film is Palpatine interacting with Anakin but whats that got to do with anything? You're confusing me with someone else here.

    Throughout the rest of the movie - minus the Tusken scene - Anakin seems to enjoy free will as much as anybody else. Even after the Tusken scene, Anakin realizes that he has done wrong and therefore seems to have control of his own mind. Therefore, considering everything I saw until now, there's enough evidence to say that Palpatine is not manipulating or possessing Anakin in any way.

    [face_laugh] I NEVER suggested that. Yep, you thought I was someone else judging by this, really this is laughable.
    Palpatine can corrupt Anakin without controlling his actions you know. Its though the subtly of words and how he strokes Anakin's ego, giving him grand visions of being the best Jedi ever or whatever.
    He's basically given Anakin his no.1 ambition....to become the most powerful Jedi ever.....which is ehanced by Shmi's death.
    Anakin does have free will, Palpatine cannot erase that, and the mistakes Anakin makes are his own doing, as well as his triumphs.
     
  23. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    SLR: I responded to Undomiel's post by saying that I think Anakin's fault is Anakin's unless he's being possessed but she (he?) continued posting about Palpatine's influence on Anakin. I couldn't think of any reason she would continue doing that unless she was arguing with Palpatine manipulating Anakin in some way.

    Guinastasia: Actually, I don't think that Obi-Wan is wrong at all, simply because Anakin made a wrong move and deserved what he got. It might have been better if Obi-Wan said "We'll discuss it later, Anakin," but I don't think that it's wrong of him to put Anakin in his place in front of Anakin. It's like if a person murdered someone and the police came barging into a party to arrest him, would you say that the police should have waited until after the party because it would be humiliating to him otherwise? (btw, I'm not saying that what Anakin did is comparable to murder. It's just an analogy to show why Obi-Wan was completely justified in doing what he did.)

    Depa Billaba
     
  24. Knight_Mical

    Knight_Mical Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2004
    How would a 10, 11, 12, or even 16 year old deal with not just the Devil influencing him, but standing in the flesh, right next to him, manipulating events in his young life specificially to draw him to the darkside? There's no "God" per sey in the Star Wars universe, so the only counteraction for the dark side is the light side. But the light side has to be aware that the dark side is among them before they can take precautionary measures, and they don't see the dark side influence till it's already infested the government, the Chosen One, and begins to destroy the jedi council. I believe Anakin inevitably is responsible for his own decisions, but I seriously question the circumstances that lead up to that decision. The kid was pretty much unprotected while right in the midst of the very people most capable of helping him.

    How would he not know it, the Jedi teach the padawans to recognize negative emotions. He may not know who is a "bad influence", but he should recognize the resulting negative emotions. Isn't this the same problems that teenagers(people in general) face everyday. They have good friends that they trust who influence them to try new things, to believe new things, feel new things. These things may not be intrinsically bad, but lead to negative situations, negative attitudes, which in turn lead to negative emotions. However, Anakin should see and feel the negative results and see the danger. Especially since, Obi-Wan constantly warns him that he senses these negative emotions or sees the danger these attitudes will lead to.

    Obi-Wan warns him that his feelings for Padme or dangerous, he warns him about his arrogance. The problem is Anakin embraces these emotions and discounts the warnings. This is understandable at 12 and 16, but as a person becomes more mature 17-19 they start recognizing these dangers for themselves and make choices for their future. Anakin has arrived at that important juncture and consistently makes the wrong choices. Marrying Padme, tusken massacre are choices that cannot be undone. His lot has been cast already.
     
  25. Depa Billaba

    Depa Billaba Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 1998
    And Tee-Sin_Quay gets a special post all for himself because he somehow managed to annoy me into it.

    Well thats just stupid, you don't need to limit yourself to just the movies. But then that would hurt your argument wouldnt it, besides its not like I'm going to the EU, I'm going to words that Lucas himself, the CREATOR, has spoken.

    Let's see: a resounding NO. I'm a busy college student and I absolutely do NOT have the luxury to go reading GL's interviews or plowing through the utter garbage that is the EU. I'll read the books if I feel like it. I'll read the interviews if I feel like it. But I shouldn't need to read either the books or the interviews for understanding the movie. What if GL condensed all six SW movies to "Anakin fell and then was redeemed" and then told you to read the books and his interviews to figure out the story?

    Movies should stand by themselves. Anything that is important needs to get conveyed in the movie.

    Again it would harm your argument otherwise, right?

    Uh, no. Because I haven't read his interviews and I don't plan on doing it. Because I shouldn't need to read the interviews to understand the movie. That's why.

    Yes and what exactly is your point? Nowhere else in this film is Palpatine interacting with Anakin but whats that got to do with anything? You're confusing me with someone else here.

    No, I'm not. Look below.

    I NEVER suggested that. Yep, you thought I was someone else judging by this, really this is laughable.

    You answered in response to g's post (Edit - the thing quoted below is g's post):
    The thing is - the Anakin/Palpatine conversation was an afterthought, it was done in the pick-up shoot. Now that doesn't make it invalid, but it does say to me that Lucas hadn't really thought much about any relationship between Anakin and Palps.

    But let's assume they have had a few conversations. The way I see it is - Palpy flatters his ego, while subtly mentioning ideas about power and being the 'greatest'. I think it's only temtation tho, I don't think he's casting a spell or training him or anything because for someone to become a Sith they have to choose it. Palpy, like the Devil, can tempt and he might know what would tempt them , but he can't make them do it.

    Now, let's look at your response:
    Palpatine can corrupt Anakin without controlling his actions you know. Its though the subtly of words and how he strokes Anakin's ego, giving him grand visions of being the best Jedi ever or whatever.

    He's basically given Anakin his no.1 ambition....to become the most powerful Jedi ever.....which is ehanced by Shmi's death.

    Anakin does have free will, Palpatine cannot erase that, and the mistakes Anakin makes are his own doing, as well as his triumphs.

    Let's also look at your previous response:
    *waves a dismissive hand at above comments*
    Rubbish! He had thought about Anakin and Palpatine's relationship.....but when he wrote the shooting script he'd made it too subtle, mainly because the relationship was more important to the events of EP3.
    He added the scene in Palpatine's office to change the subtly to a more clear line that Anakin was indeed friends with Palpatine and that Palpatine had been acting as a mentor-on-the-side.

    Maybe you should read the Making of book, instead of relying on your own flawed and biased thoughts.

    g was answering to Undomiel's post and he was saying that he didn't think Palpatine was "casting a spell" on Anakin or anything, which is basically what I've been arguing and what you're also agreeing with. You practically outlined what g said (in your latest post), yet you called g's thought "flawed" and "biased."

    Edit 2 & 3 - fixed up markup codes.

    Depa Billaba
     
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