I would smack Anakin upside the head if i was Obi-Wan!

No, Luke wouldn't have been more culpable.

He saw the smoking skeletons (or at least they looked like skeletons).

I want to know where his tears were. Anakin bawled his eyes out. Why didn't Luke cry? That's always bothered me.

And I would disagree that finding out that your father is Darth Vader is worse than having your tortured mother die in your arms. It depends on the person.

 

A_G, I wouldn't read too much into Luke not crying. Crying is not the only way people deal w/ grief. There are some people that aren't cryers, Luke may be one of them. But that doesn't mean that they weren't in pain. Also, killing off the Lars' was just a simple plot point to get Luke off of Tatooine. It wasn't really something Lucas wanted to spend time dwelling on. He did this a lot in the OT which sometimes gives it a callous feel to it, but when given a two hour constraint to tell the story, sometimes these dramatic niceties get sacrificed.

 

g: For me the sense of friendship is the most powerful thing in the OT.
Anakin lacks that. Anakin and Obi are supposed to have a great friendship, in fact I think it would be better dramatically if they did, because the tragedy should be that Anakin let his friendship go and chose power instead.

According to Ben Kenobi in ANH, Anakin was a "good friend." From that, I always thought that Anakin and Obi-Wan shared a strong friendship - one that I wanted to see in the Prequels but have yet to see.

a_g: No, Luke wouldn't have been more culpable.

Is Anakin less culpable for turning because he had been a slave for ten years?

By the way, I wouldn't make too much out of that if I were you. Not all people cry to show their grief. I don't cry (especially in public) to show my grief. I'm a very private person, and I have this thing against showing emotions in public unless in extreme situations.

Edit: Damn it, SLR beat me to it!

Depa Billaba

 

Let us also remember that Luke crying (or not as the case is) is a filmmaker's decision. GL wanted to keep ANH light 'n' happy, even when bad stuff happened he wanted to move right on with the adventure.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

You know the saying, "Knowledge is power," ? That really applies in this case. The jedi knew at least one sith had been found by the end of TPM, but after that, they had no luck finding them, nor had any of them personally witnessed the destructive power of a Sith Master (they will by the end of EP III, however). As a result, they assumed all was well when in fact, Anakin was being seduced to the dark side right under their noses. It is the result of their experiences with Anakin that makes it possible for Obi and Yoda to give Luke the best possible advice, counsel and training - knowledge IS power. They also were quite aware who the sith were, and where they were in the OT. In the PT, not one jedi had the foggiest notion of the location of the sith, although Yoda appears to finally be suspecting - a day late and a dollar short.

When Obi and Yoda die physically (or rather vanish, become force ghosties), they add their force abilities to Luke's making him more and more powerful in the force. They give personal instruction by being present with him when he needs it, like at the death star or on hoth, for example.

 

Well, Depa, I don't think it was wrong of Obi-Wan, per se (especially since he looks soooo sexy with that irritated frown on his face-heh!), but more that it was just sort of rude, seeing as Padme was probably really uncomfortable seeing this.

I hate it when people argue in front of me. But yeah, Anakin's humiliation was pretty mild, and hopefully he'd learn from it. (Sadly, we already know he doesn't).

 

Lucas may have had a purpose for not having Luke cry, and some people don't cry in public, but I still didn't like it. I didn't like the fact that he was sloshing back drinks an hour later like nothing had happened, either. No matter what happens to Anakin later, his reaction to his mother's death was much more realistic.

 

i agree

 

I want to know where his tears were. Anakin bawled his eyes out. Why didn't Luke cry? That's always bothered me.

He looks more like he's gonna be sick. Not everyone reacts by crying. But I disagree with the notion that Owen didn't love or care for Luke. He did-but he had a hard time showing it. He reminds me of Red on That '70s Show.



And Anakin and Obi-Wan ARE friends, but more also more like brothers-they bicker a lot, but they really do love each other. I love my family dearly, but my mom and my sister and I are always arguing. It's just the way we are.

You know, maybe Luke didn't go to Mos Eisley right away-he may have spent the night at Obi-Wan's and then gone. Or perhaps he was just in shock. People deal with grief differently, and probably after Yavin and everything, he had time to indulge.

 

Why didn't Luke cry, you ask.

Because, he to wanted revenge for the death of his parents. Luke just didn't lose it when it happened. He calmly made his mind up to go after the Empire for what they had done.

"There's nothing here for me, now."..."I want to learn the ways of the Force, like my father." all said in anger.

Luke was level headed, not uncaring.

 

And Anakin and Obi-Wan ARE friends, but more also more like brothers-they bicker a lot, but they really do love each other.

Anakin has a strange way of showing it. I wouldn't mind them bickering. I do that with sister all the time, too. But I would never go contradicting her authority in public the way Anakin did. Remember that Anakin also bursts out against Obi-Wan in front of Padmé later in AOTC, when they both are leaving Coruscant. No matter how angry I'm at my sister, I would never go tell my boyfriend (one that I had seen for like a month when I was nine, by the way, and never saw him again) about it. What Anakin should have done was talked to Obi-Wan, told him what he felt, and explain why he is feeling that. Obi-Wan isn't so bone-headed that he won't listen to Anakin.

Looking at AOTC, I didn't get the feeling at all that Anakin even respected Obi-Wan, much less thought of him as a friend.

Depa Billaba

 

Luke has the benefit of 2 parents who were with him in his childhood and adolesence, albeit not his real parents, yet still from a psychological standpoint, he had a more stable upbringing than Anakin.

I wouldn't call it more stable, since I got the impression that his uncle Owen was not too happy about having him there. Beru seems to be gentle and caring though. Shmi is a loving parent and having been from a single parent home myself, my Mom supported 4 kids and managed to raise us all to be well-adjusted relatively successful people, not sure one parent vs two parents is necessarily better.

Slavery I think is his biggest disadvantage and probably the root of both his arrogance and need for power.

Luke has the benefit of 2 jedi masters training him, one of which is Yoda, and finally joining their force abilities with his causing him to be 3 times as strong in the light side of the force.

I think Anakin has a huge advantage in training and is much better prepared than Luke. Anakin had Qui-Gon, the way Luke had Obi-Wan; they both had these mentors for about the same amt of time.

Anakin then had Obi-Wan and the other masters for 10 plus years, teaching him Jedi philosophy, Force abilities and light-saber skills etc...where Luke only had Yoda for a few days teaching him primarily about the Force. As far as Obi-Wan as the Blue Ghost for Luke, these visions weren't shown as him offering great wisdom but rather warnings. Not sure what you mean by combining forces?

Anakin has a truck load of force abilities, careening wildly from side to side, being manipulated by a Sith Master. The jedi assume they are the only people influencing him and that he is simply an impatient person.

And Luke isn't even aware of his abilities and demonstrated incredible faith in the Force when he's only learned the cursory fundamentals of the religion or philosophy and is only exposed to it for a few days/weeks. He's also hindered by learning that his own Father is the ultimate evil villian, What bigger influence than a father you have idolized for years who you suddenly find out has embraced the dark side. I think Luke is again much more disadvantaged than Anakin. Also I think Luke is supposed to be on par with Anakin as far as Force powers, that's how he's able to learn so fast.

You are assuming that Palp's has had a great influence and spent a lot of time with Anakin,he encourages his ego. I don't think this is the case. Def not shown in the movie anyway.

Luke has the benefit of hindsight regarding the Sith. Anakin doesn't. He's flying blind as are all the jedi in the PT.

No, Anakin has even more warning, very close and direct inteference. He knows that Qui-Gon thinks Maul was a Sith and he knows that Qui-Gon suspects the Sith are back, thus the Chosen One prophecy. I think the Jedi are watching him like a hawk, the prophecy alone would make them nervous.

[/i]Luke knows nothing about his mother. Anakin watches his mom die in his arms. [/i]

Luke sees his mother and father figures burned to death, directly caused by his own actions and the Jedi.

Luke's only love interest turns out to be his sister. Anakin's love interest turns out to be reciprocal.

I would think an unreciprocated love and jealousy of his friend would be a bigger push to go to the dark-side.

I think this demonstrates, that anything can be considered an incentive or reason to go dark or not to. It depends on the individuals own moral code and strength of character. It's like the old story two kids from same parents and environment, one is good and the other bad. Why? It's all about character and personality. Environment and Nature don't explain everything.

 

Right--because I am used to being around civilized, decent people.



My "place" is to do whatever I damn well please--that includes saying whatever I damn well please

Yes, very "civilized", and "decent".

You seem to be very infatuated with Anakin. So infatuated, that you are becoming enraged with plot points in a story. These points are necessary, as I stated.

You are perceiving Obi-Wan's chiding of Anakin as some kind of slap in the face. Skywalker's situation is very unusual. He didn't have an ideal childhood. He was caught up in something he had no control over. He made a snap decision concerning his entry into the Jedi world, and now he is facing the consequences of that decision.

He's also doing what every young person does...question authority. And when you question authority, you get more consequences. Add to this his forbidden romance with Padme, the tragedy of his mom, and Palpatine's "guidance", and we have the recipe for a "good man" to become "twisted and evil".

It doesn't matter if Anakin was right or wrong about catching Padme's attacker. Sometimes, you just have to do what you're told.

Also, of course Shmi's death is a good thing. Not in the literal sense, of course. Take away the brutal treatment she suffered at the hands of sandpeople, and Anakin may not have turned to the dark side. No Vader...no Original Trilogy.

 

The jedi knew at least one sith had been found by the end of TPM, but after that, they had no luck finding them, nor had any of them personally witnessed the destructive power of a Sith Master (they will by the end of EP III, however). As a result, they assumed all was well when in fact, Anakin was being seduced to the dark side right under their noses.

Not at all, Yoda and Mace are very aware that the Dark side is clouding everything, as indicated by at least two conversations that are shown on screen.

The darkside is representative of the Sith. They just don't know who(Sith Lord) is the source of that darkside. They have no proof that he exists and who it is. Therefore they suspect all. The Sith aren't new, they've been around for a millenium. The prophecy originated from the Sith Wars. I'm sure that Anakin has learned all about Jedi history, which will include the Sith War. More importantly he's had personal experience with one and knows that Qui-Gon thought Maul was a Sith apprentice and therefore there was a Sith lord lurking about (always two there are).

It is the result of their experiences with Anakin that makes it possible for Obi and Yoda to give Luke the best possible advice, counsel and training - knowledge IS power. They also were quite aware who the sith were, and where they were in the OT. In the PT, not one jedi had the foggiest notion of the location of the sith, although Yoda appears to finally be suspecting - a day late and a dollar short.

Wisdom and knowledge he didn't heed. Obi-Wan and the Jedi gave Anakin the same counsel, advice and training more in fact. All that Yoda and Obi-Wan espoused was Jedi philosophy, they have no idea how to defeat Sidious or if they do they certainly don't let Luke in on it. More importantly where Anakin has more than a decade of training, Luke only has a few days of training with Obi-Wan and perhaps another week or two with Yoda before confronting Vader and finding out he's his father and facing the same types of trials/temptations Anakin faced.

When Obi and Yoda die physically (or rather vanish, become force ghosties), they add their force abilities to Luke's making him more and more powerful in the force. They give personal instruction by being present with him when he needs it, like at the death star or on hoth, for example.

No they dont. Where is this said, implied or even vaguely hinted at???? This sounds like AU to me or fan speculation. The Force Ghosts act as his alternate conscience, IMO. They remind him of Jedi philosophy, give him guidance: ie: "Go to the Dagobah system, find a Jedi Master named Yoda", or "Trust your feelings". Nice advice and guidance, but certainly not in the lines of "Make friends with the ewocks, they will help you" or "throw down your saber, and Vader will kill Sidious".
They don't add great knowledge or insights, just remind him what he's already learned and they certainly dont give him extra Force ability.

Luke does amazing things with just raw talent and goodness of heart. That becomes clearer and clearer as the PT progresses.

 

I still say Owen cares about Luke-he's just a very gruff, non-demonstrative sort of person. Like I said, he's Red Foreman. "Jedi Knight. Humfph! Jedi Dumbass!"

Basically, he won't let him go to the academy, not out of spite, or cruelty, but because he knows that Luke Skywalker would attract unwanted attention. He's also afraid of Luke going and becoming a Jedi.

But he does care about him. He's just a hardass, that's all.

 

"I think Anakin has a huge advantage in training and is much better prepared than Luke."

Anakin won't be prepared when he finds out that his good friend Palpatine(whom he has known for years) is a Sith Lord feeding his ego with false confidence and foney praises and no amount of training was able to help Anakin resist Palpatine's Dark Side temptations whereas Luke had the pleasure of knowing the real Palpatine once they meet which enabled him to overcome the Dark Side.

"Anakin then had Obi-wan and the other masters for 10 years, teaching him Jedi philosophy, Force abilities and light-saber skills etc..."

But Anakin never had any insight on how to better understand the Force(an energy field created by all living things that surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together) like Luke has since Obi-wan, the Council, and the other Jedi have distanced themselves from every other lifeform in the galaxy with their "no attachment" rules and regulations which is why Anakin harbored too many darkside emotions within him and never stood a chance in resisting the Dark Side like Luke has.

"And Luke isn't even aware of his abilities and demonstrated incredible faith in the Force when he's only learned the cursory fundamentals of the religion and philosophy and is only exposed to it for a few days/weeks. He's also hindered by learning that his own Father is the ultimate evil villain, What bigger influence than a father you have idolized for years who you suddenly find out has embraced the dark side. I think Luke is again much more disadvantaged than Anakin."

Not true because once Luke realises that his father is Darth Vader, he understands first hand what effect the Dark Side can do to a person and that knowledge came to good use in ROTJ when it allowed Luke to throw away his saber instead of killing Vader after he had him pinned.

"You are assuming that Palp's has had a great influence and has spent a lot of time with Anakin, he encourages his ego. I don't think this is the case. Def not shown in the movie anyway."

Chancellor Palpatine doesn't appear to be corrupt. I think he's a good man.-Anakin.

Palpatine-And so, they've finally given you an assignment. Your patience has paid off.
Anakin-Your guidance more than my patience.

Palpatine-I forsee you becoming the greatest of all Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.
Anakin-I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!

Obi-wan-If you spent as much time practicing your saber skills than you do your wits, you would rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman.
Anakin-I thought I already did.
Obi-wan-Only in your mind, my very young apprentice.

All of these quotes and interactions between these characters show that Palpatine HAS infact influenced Anakin over the years.

"No, Anakin has even more warning, very close and direct interference. He knows that Qui-Gon thinks Maul was a Sith and he knows that Qui-Gon suspects the Sith are back, thus the Chosen One prophecy."

Actually, Anakin doesn't know anything about the Sith(who they are, what their realationship with the Jedi is like, etc.) since he wasn't with Qui-Gon when he made the declaration to the Council that Maul is a Sith Lord.

"Wisdom and knowledge he didn't heed. Obi-wan and the Jedi gave Anakin the same counsel, advice and training in fact."

But they never gave Anakin any hindsight on what effects the Dark Side has on a person like they have given Luke.

"they had no idea how to defeat Sidious or if they do they certainly don't let Luke in on it."

Because Luke rushed off to Bespin before they had the chance to tell him.

 

Anakin won't be prepared when he finds out that his good friend Palpatine(whom he has known for
years) is a Sith Lord feeding his ego with false confidence and foney praises and no amount of training
was able to help Anakin resist Palpatine's Dark Side temptations whereas Luke had the pleasure of
knowing the real Palpatine once they meet which enabled him to overcome the Dark Side.

But it evens itself out. Anakin has been trained for more than a decade to recognize and purge negative
emotions and to control his baser instincts, he?s also very politically saavy. Luke is a regular kid who
obviously suffers from teenage angst and is basically unsophisticated in the ways of politics or the darkside of the galaxy. He also hasn?t had any training with recognizing or purging negative emotions or controlling them, only what he receives in the few days/weeks he gets from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

So yes Anakin?s friendship may have been an added factor, but he?s had enough training to recognize that
his arrogance and desire for power are dangerous emotions that he needs to avoid. As I said before,
everyone has been tempted by friends, but at some point most of us are smart enough to recognize the
danger and avoid those friends.

Anakin is warned several times by Obi-Wan that he?s overly confident and is focusing on inappropriate
feelings and emotions that can lead to dark feelings. Therefore the friendshi with Palpatine isn?t the
problem it?s more a symptom of his bigger issue, which is his unwillingness to recognize his own faults
and thinking that he can control his passion and greed.

But Anakin never had any insight on how to better understand the Force(an energy field created by all
living things that surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together) like Luke has since Obi-wan,
the Council, and the other Jedi have distanced themselves from every other lifeform in the galaxy with
their "no attachment" rules and regulations which is why Anakin harbored too many darkside emotions
within him and never stood a chance in resisting the Dark Side like Luke has.

I don?t agree, Anakin has received the best training the same training in fact that Obi-Wan and other less
powerful Jedi received. Obi-Wan is also focused and more talented in the ?Unifying Force?, and he?s not
arrogant and power hungry. Anakin?s strength is supposed to be the Living Force, just like Qui-Gon.
The rest of your argument is speculative and not based on what we see in the movie. Obi-Wan has friends
and relationships outside the Jedi, as did Qui-Gon. I agree that Anakin harbored too many darkside
emotions, but he also had the training and force talent to recognize those feelings and to control them if he so wanted.

My speculation is that Anakin has learned through the years, probably from when he was a boy on Tatooine, that he gains power from these darkside emotions and secretly feels he can control them since he?s the Chosen One. His total and abiding faith in his abilities, suggests that he is very aware of
whom he supposed to be.

"And Luke isn't even aware of his abilities and demonstrated incredible faith in the Force when he's only learned the cursory fundamentals of the religion and philosophy and is only exposed to it for a few
days/weeks. He's also hindered by learning that his own Father is the ultimate evil villain, What bigger
influence than a father you have idolized for years who you suddenly find out has embraced the dark side.
I think Luke is again much more disadvantaged than Anakin."

Not true because once Luke realises that his father is Darth Vader, he understands first hand what effect
the Dark Side can do to a person and that knowledge came to good use in ROTJ when it allowed Luke to
throw away his saber instead of killing Vader after he had him pinned.

Doesn?t Anakin have the same epiphany when he kills the Tuskens? Hasn?t he seen personally what the
Dark Side can do to a person, HIMSELF.. He even says in the garage that he?s better than this because
he?s

 

Actually, Anakin doesn't know anything about the Sith(who they are, what their realationship with the
Jedi is like, etc.) since he wasn't with Qui-Gon when he made the declaration to the Council that Maul is a
Sith Lord.

Are we to assume then that in ten years, 1) Anakin was never told about the Sith Lords, 2) Anakin never heard about the Sith Lords, 3) Anakin never read about the Sith Lords, and 4) Anakin never asked Obi-Wan or Jedi about who killed Qui-Gon (and if he did that the Jedi lied for some reason).

That's a lot to assume.

Anakin knew about the Sith Lords. Qui-Gon, though the Sith have been absent for a millennium, has been able to - practically speaking, immediately - see Darth Maul for what he was. That suggests that Qui-Gon has been taught and has some kind of understanding of what Sith Lords are.

Considering that the Jedi now know that Sith are active in the galaxy, it'd be ridiculous of them to not teach their members everything about Sith Lords and how to counter Sith Lords.

Depa Billaba

 

i completely agree, Anakin needs a reality check away from his idealistic "i'm the greatest" Muhammed Ali mode of thought. he may have the most raw talent but as Yoda said to Luke in Episode V, "Control, you must learn control".

 

One thing I noticed, at least according to the Jedi Quest series, is that Anakin tends to be competitive, and neglects to learn that the Jedi are about teamwork-he has a hard time when someone is better than him, and sees that person as a rival, rather than a companion.

 

What the heck is Jedi Quest series? That's not by Jude Watson is it? I hate AU, it has nothing to do with the movies.

 

It's EU, not AU, and it's just a suggestion.

I think it's an interesting point-Anakin DOES seem to see being a Jedi as a way to impress others, and be competitive, rather than about the Jedi approach as a whole.

 

Knight_Mical: Jedi Quest is sort of like the Jedi Apprentice series. I believe both of them are written by Jude Watson (I know for sure the latter is written for JW, but I'm not sure about the former.)

Watson's stories are the worst. I read a couple of JQ books and a lot of JA books and I hated all of them. None of the characters were written in character, there was no drama, the situations were stale, and the books were boring. Of course, the EU - minus books by Stover (Shatterpoint and Traitor), Allston (X-wing books, and the two NJO books), Cunningham (Dark Journey), and Kevin J. Anderson's YJK series - is even more stupid than Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Quest series...

Depa Billaba

 

After reviewing AotC, paying specific attention to the relationship between Obi and Anakin, I notice something very striking. The problem boils down to this:

Anakin was clearly a few too many steps ahead of Obi in force skill and it was frustrating the heck outta both of them. It's like a high school science teacher trying to teach the structure of an atom to a child genius who understood particle physics when he was 5.

Obi kept insisting Anakin learn the other important traits of a jedi: obedience and patience, but Obi's seeming inepitude in the force by comparison to Anakin's, serves only to make Anakin all the more impatient and disillusioned. Anakin's arrogance about those skills and over confidence are what leads to his downfall, but his skills in the force are actually stronger than Obi's. This is clear many times in the film and is reiterated by Anakin, not just in an attempt to complain about the unfairness of his life as a jedi or his teacher, but as a foreshadowing that he is indeed more powerful in the force.

To make matters worse, Obi was missing crucial opportunities to bolster healthy confidence in his student, incorrectly assuming this would add to Anakin's arrogance, causing an emotional gap that Palpatine was more than happy to fill. This frustrated Anakin even more because he was positive he was excelling in force skills as a jedi and yet, if you heard it from Obi's perspective, Anakin was just his young padawan, his very young apprentice, and on and on. Truth be told, he was too gifted to have Obi for a teacher. Yoda should've done it, just as Obi finally admits in the OT.

As a result, it's no small surprise that these two don't get along. Obi keeps getting upstaged by his own apprentice, and not just in situations like the argument in Padme's apartment, but in force skills. He thinks fast on his feet. He's the first into Padme's room and slays both the worms before Obi even realizes what's going on. While Obi is lecturing him about going the wrong way while chasing Zam and how Anakin has basically flubbed up, Anakin is already tracking Zam and free falls to land precisely on Zam's vehicle as it sweeps by several stories below. His timing is impeccable. How do you deal with a student like that? Obviously, it's not an easy job. While Obi has learned to be an all around excellent jedi and tries to teach Anakin the same, Anakin was already on the fast track, a track on which he excelled as a jedi in every way except emotional stability. A recipe for disaster that Obi Wan could not avert and actually made worse with all his belly-aching.

 

...incorrectly assuming this would add to Anakin's arrogance...

That's speculation only. There is nothing to suggest Anakin's ego and arrogance would not have grown further.

He's the first into Padme's room and slays both the worms before Obi even realizes what's going on

Obi-Wan is looking for the source of the threat while Anakin deals with the worms themselves. It's not a race.

Anakin has fantastic force skills but relies too heavily on them, rather than using his brain; he's living on his reflexes.

Obi-Wan doesn't know how to deal with Anakin, and what's more, he is very worried about his pupil's force abilities growing beyond the pace of his control and discipline. Obi-Wan already knows that Anakin's training is not going well, but he doesn't seem to be getting any help from the council on this matter. I think Obi-Wan does go over the top in reminding Anakin of his status as a learner, but it's because he feels things are going terribly wrong with his training and doesn't know how to get through to Anakin any more. Had he known about Palpatine's little pep-talks, maybe things would be different.