ST "If Anakin brought balance"... dark side users in the ST

And yet the Galaxy is in nearly the same condition as when they (EDIT: 'The Sith') were destroyed.
What exactly has been balanced? What makes Palpatine and Vader so different than Snoke and Kylo?

 

Perhaps some of this is now a matter of interpretation? Obviously, George was unequivocal at one point, right after ROTS, that Anakin destroying the Sith brought balance to the Force. But he decided that there was another story to tell, and so the story isn't quite done, and balance not yet achieved.

Maybe the Jedi interpreted the prophecy to mean that the Sith were the ones who must be destroyed in order to achieve balance, but what if there was something else behind the Sith, unknown to the Jedi, or at least lost to history?

 

It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was the best the Jedi could hope to achieve based on the threats that they knew and faced back then. The Sith were the threat that could be removed if the Chosen One fulfilled his destiny. That didn't mean evil was gone and the dark side was gone. The dark side is a natural part of the Force and will always be there. Unfortunately, that means it's possible for someone else who's strong with the Force to use the dark side at some point.

 

not even close.

there was an galaxy spanning empire and the sith ruled the galaxy for years. in tfa the most the fo does is destroy the capital of the new republic and it took them thirty years to do it. their planet weapon is destroyed right after that. the fo is nowhere near the size of the empire and the weapon they spent all that time building is gone. the only think snoke and kylo were successful in doing is building up fo forces, destroying luke's students and forcing him into hiding. it's been six years and they couldn't even find him and kill him.

 

Certainly the First Order doesn't have the same control of the galaxy that the Sith/Empire had (but the Sith only had that control for 20+ years),
but aren't their goals, tactics and dark side power comparable? It only took the First Order / Dark Side 20+ years to destroy a whole system.

 

the only reason the fo was allowed to exist this long is because the new republic refused to fight in any wars. this is why leia started the resistance. the republic could've wiped out the fo if they decided to fight.

 

But the First Order wasn't even known until Leia found them 6 years prior to TFA (they were hidden just as the Sith were) and look what they have already achieved.
I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and I'm not denying (or conceding) that Anakin brought balance to the force. I just don't see what makes the Sith different than the FO.

 

they aren't as powerful. a sith would've turned rey or killed her. there also aren't any jedi fighting the fo. if there were the fo wouldn't have much of a chance. this is why snoke wants luke dead. snoke and kylo couldn't defeat trained pt jedi. the sith could but only by planning for years and doing it in secret.

 

Anakin can (presumably, based on what we know so far) be credited with destroying the Sith, specifically. And perhaps there was a time where there were no KNOWN users of the darkside in the galaxy after that, at least until Snoke emerged. (or RE-emerged.) Now darkness has returned-as it always will. It is true that even if the Sith are vanquished once and for all, evil can always come back in one form or another. It's naiive to think that there will be nothing but peace and light throughout the galaxy for the rest of time. Such an idea is inevitable after all; 'there can be no light without the darkness,' etc. That is the way I see the events of the ST: "Evil has returned." That line of thinking.

I believe Anakin was percieved to be the chosen one, and I know those were GL's intentions before Lucasfilm was sold and all, but I guess it could be looked at in two ways now. Is it Anakin? Or is it the Skywalker line? Now that we have the ST, I will acknowledge it is possible that the REAL "chosen one" may even be revealed to actually be Luke, and the Jedi were wrong. It could still work: They both emerged in a 'time of great despair,' and they are both 'the son of the suns.' Or perhaps in a way, Anakin AND Luke. Or like I said, the Skywalkers. Starting with Anakin, but ultimately accomplished by his line. I like the idea that the story is still open in that respect. I'm hoping this is how it plays out.

 

anakin is the chosen one. the prophecy only pertained to him, born of the force, destroying the sith. it's over and done. now that the sith are gone the vacuum is filled by new villains.

 

Exactly.

 

Not exactly so.This is why this is very clearly a continuation of the war of Light and Dark begun in TPM or rather the continuation of that particular fight. It's not simply over and everything is fine in ROTJ.

Sidious was the Emperor and turned the Republic that had stood for generations for peace and justice (which was upheld by the Jedi) into an Empire without true peace and justice. The peace was the order of a tyrant handed down.

It didn't happen overnight either way. It took decades for Sidious to turn the tide in his favor and the favor of the Sith from the Light Side and the Dark Side in balance to the imbalance that favored the Dark Side.

Before the Light and Dark were on even ground and things could go either way. It wasn't all Light all the time. The imbalance gave the Dark the high ground and the Light while not extinguished was fighting an uphill battle.

The lines between the Light and Dark were shrouded by the Sith. The Jedi being soldiers at all increased the Dark Side. They were maneuvered into an impossible situation. In the previous incarnation of the Sith it was simple. They were Dark and the Light was against them. The new tactic was not to fight from without but to destroy from within.

The galaxy is not in the same situation. It is though still in a fragile state and that is what Snoke and Kylo Ren are taking advantage of. What was left behind by Sidious and Vader on the Dark Side but also by Anakin on the Light Side.

It's a direct continuation as referenced by Lor San Tekka right at the start of TFA:

This will begin to make things right.I've traveled too far, and seen too much, to ignore the despair in the galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.

The Jedi are key to the Force remaining in balance. The Force was out of balance with Sidious, Vader and the Empire. Anakin returned and destroyed both himself as Vader as well as Sidious and brought balance to the Force. Now it's once again equal for both sides. The actual after effects don't just turn on a dime overnight anymore than Sidious turned the balance of the Force to the Dark Side overnight. That took many decades.

With the Sith gone balance itself is back in that it's up to either side. That doesn't mean that the Dark itself cannot ever dominate again. Of course it can. The domination the Dark Side did have through the Sith is over but Snoke and Kylo Ren can tip it again to the Dark Side. As stated directly in the movie they are telling us that the Jedi are needed to keep the balance.

So what did Snoke do? He seduced Ben Solo, made him into Kylo Ren and they proceeded to destroy the Jedi so that the Dark Side would once again be dominant. Obviously as seen in TFA that is working as the once again the new Republic split again into 2 major factions. This time though the Centrists paired up with the Imperial remnant to create the First Order while the Populists are in line with the old Republic before Sidious but they need the Jedi.

The major difference is that Sidious and Vader were in virtually in complete charge. They only had the Rebel Alliance against them which was not much at all and didn't start to really get anywhere until Luke came along.

In this current situation Snoke and Kylo Ren are not in virtual complete charge. They have half the Republic against them (though they lost the Republic Fleet so they don't have much power) as well as the Resistance. It is a similar situation to where things were in ANH but not quite the same. It not quite as desperate. Yet. They know Luke is out there and Snoke and Kylo Ren fear that and that he might train new Jedi. Now with Rey as well they will be even more in peril in ways that Sidious and Vader never were. They thought Obi-Wan and Yoda dead and Luke was young and alone.

Snoke has nowhere the confidence of knowing that the Dark is dominant that Sidious had. He is still trying to get where Sidious already was in ANH and can only do that with the total destruction of the Jedi which as far as Sidious knew was what had already had happened.

Anakin did bring balance to the Force but obviously he can't maintain it. That is up to the Jedi and that is Luke's responsibility. The Jedi are the final barrier that once removed in ROTS complete the slide to the Dark Side being in control. Until the Jedi are well and truly re-established the Force cannot remain in balance.

For some reason many people seem to think that Anakin restoring balance to the Force is some permanent unalterable state. This doesn't work at all. He restored balance of the Force to both Light and Dark. If it was simply him shifting it to the Light only then the prophecy would be about him creating an imbalance to the Light alone. This was obviously not the case or what the prophecy said.

The whole point is that the Force can be tipped to the Light or Dark. It's a constant balancing act. The Sith didn't simply tip the scale a bit it was a complete tilt from 180 to 180 to 270 to 90 as it were. Snoke is trying to take advantage of the situation created by the Sith and the lack of Jedi able to keep the Force in balance.

 

Wow. I was just saying what I thought could be an interesting twist.


But okay then. Not allowed. Got it.

On to some other thread.

 

That was my point. The Sith could have called themselves anything they wanted....they still would have been dark side users who happened to call themselves Sith. It's their brand. That they had their own ancient practices and such was incidental. Were there other dark side users? Absolutely.

Agreed. The dark side is a threat to any Force user.

 

I think Rey after turning dark should be grey,

 

I actually think Snoke will turn out to be just as powerful as Palpatine force wise anyway. Snoke sure wanted Rey brought to him and even wanted her to take out Kylo Ren it sounded like from the book from what some people said. Sounds just like Sith/Palpatine thinking to me. I think Snoke just fears an entire new Jedi order forming which would really complicate things for him when you don't already have the galaxy under your control basically by playing politician like Palpatine did. I still think Snoke had some prior engagements with the Jedi a very long time ago - even before Yoda was on the scene.

 

That's just how the Dark Side goes in-general. It's about selfishness and pursuit of personal power, and you crush anyone who gets in your way. That's Kylo's big thing, and it's why he murdered his father. Snoke doesn't seem nearly as self-confident or egotistical as Sheev. Sheev had this air of "I'm all-powerful and nothing can challenge me, including those pathetic band of Rebels." And he was utterly confident that Luke could be turned.

Snoke, takes the Resistance much more seriously, is terrified of what Luke's return would mean, and we don't even know what his exact plans for Rey were, or if he still will want her brought to him moving forward (I personally think that he will, but we don't know for sure). And he doesn't have supreme arrogance that Sheev did, at least from what we've seen of him so far.

 

So the Chosen One's (if Anakin was the Chosen One which I doubt) balance lasted lasted a grand total of 23 years? Some Chosen One he turned out to be.

23 years is an eye blink in SW lore.

 

you obviously don't get it at all.

anakin destroyed the sith and balanced the force. these new enemies aren't sith and nowhere is it said the force is out of balance again. the only threat to balance now is if luke is killed because there can't be balance without the jedi.

 

No, not at all. The Sith cast a show upon the entire Galaxy... the FO casts a shadow upon only small fringe areas.

 

That's what I said.

The Sith were hidden for 100's of years then ruled the Galaxy for 20+ years.
The new dark-siders have been around for 6 and have already dismantled the governing body of the New Republic.
What is this balance that we talk about? How are things in TFA different than TPM?

 

no sith. that's the difference.

 

They are not a whole lot different except the First Order is attempting to take over by use of military force basically instead of how Palpatine manipulated things politically. In a way you could argue they are actually in a better position since there is only one lone Jedi in the galaxy right now to deal with and not thousands. Even though they make it a point to say the new bad guys are not Sith they seem to be acting a lot like them so far. Its been roughly 5 or 6 years since Snoke took Kylo Ren as his apprentice and he doesn't seem to be going out of his way to find other force sensitives to train to create some large dark sider group to lead (I am still assuming the KoR are not that strong with the force if they can even use it at all).

 

But that is only half of it.
Obi-Wan: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

In TPM, the Jedi believed the Sith had been extinct for a millenium, yet they still referred to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force.
If they thought the Sith were extinct, then wouldn't they have to believe the Prophecy had already been fulfilled?

Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
Mace Windu: You are referring to the Prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force... you believe it's this boy?

There must be more to balance than just destroying the Sith. Weren't things suppose to get better when the prophecy was fulfilled?
Hopefully more than just 20+ years of peace?

 

He got old and lost his balance... and then with the force he accidentally threw the force out of alignment, balance... he'll be using a cane in episode VIII