PT If Anakin chose to fight with Mace

During that fateful moment when Mace was getting ready to strike down Palpatine, what would have happened if Anakin had sided with the Jedi Master?

Would Palpatine have killed them both, or would the duo have eventually prevailed?

If Palpatine slays both, then Order 66 would still ensue and the Temple would still be attacked. However, both Obi-Wan and Yoda would confront Palpatine. Would this duo win?

 

Good question! It's left ambiguous whether or not Sidious intentionally "lost" the fight with Mace. Good arguments that cite evidence from the film can be made for both sides. I've never really settled one way or the other.

With Anakin AND Mace against Sidious in his prone, lightsaber-less position, I find it difficult to believe that DS would win.

Now, Obi-Wan and Yoda against Sidious… Lots of times in the PT we have two Jedi against one Sith. Although he of course slays Darth Maul, Obi-Wan usually doesn't come out too well in these fights. He is despatched quickly during both fights with Dooku. Sidious probably would have found a way to incapacitate or keep Obi-Wan out of the fight while he focused on Yoda. There would be a better chance for DS to lose this fight vs. the one we got with Sidious vs. Yoda, but if they had defeated (and presumably killed) DS, where would that leave them?

 

Since DS was the legitimate emperor of the galaxy who was supported at this time by presumably the majority of the senate, if anyone ascertained that the Jedi killed him, they would be regarded as traitors. Consequently, the Jedi would only have two options: lie or take the blame.

As for who would win the Mace & Anakin vs. Sidious duel, it's difficult to answer that without, as you have said, determining whether Sidious intentionally feigned defeat.

As for who win the Obi-Wan & Yoda vs. Sidious duel, this is tough for me to say since Obi-Wan is one of my favorite characters, but I think it might be no different from the actual duel. Since Dooku was able to take Obi-Wan out of the equation extremely easily with a force attack, Sidious would probably do the same.

 

Interesting question. In my interpretation, Mace defeated Sidious fair and square, so from that perspective, he and Anakin would be more than a match for him together. On the other hand, two against one in SW hasn't always worked well for the two. It's almost as though the focus is split, or the weaker duelist drags down the stronger, or something. On balance, though, I'd say Mace and Anakin would take down Sidious.

 

Anakin would've died, he did not reach his maximum potential as the Chosen One. Mace would've won anyway since he had him at before Anakin arrived. Now Obi wan and Yoda would be far different since Yoda is known for protecting his fellow Jedi as in Episode 2 with Dooku so they would prevail. The only reason why Palpatine won against Yoda is because he had the upper ground and with two Yoda could distract Palpatine and obi wan kills Palpatine.

 

If Anakin had joined Mace or not stopped him, then Palpatine would be dead. Mace bested Palpatine and Palpatine being the master opportunist and politician managed to make it look like a Jedi assasination. He only survived as Anakin intervened. Palpatine had his make or break moment right then.

 

Wouldnt be much of a story after.

 

Basically this. Palpatine was on the verge of death when Anakin's came in.

Really, a few variables could easily have had mostly the same result

A. Anakin still disobeys Mace, but doesn't betray him and helps him kill Palpatine

B. Anakin's doesn't disobey Mace and remains behind. Mace kills Palpatine and security footage proves Palpatine was the Sith Lord. The Clone Wars last a little bit longer but, possibly using info from Palpatines office, they end it quickly. All is well.

C. Mace decides to be more trustworthy of Anakin's and has him come along. He and the other Jedi Masters defeat and kill Palpatine.

 

Yep that's pretty much it!

 

Whether he lost the fight intentionally or not, I still think if Anakin had sided with Mace that Palpatine would be dead. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, taking that much Force lightning had gotta take it our of you. For that same reason I do think that Yoda and Obi Wan could have defeated him, though it would have been a close fight, and I doubt both Yoda and Obi would come out of it alive either.

 

Oh yeah mace beat palps by disarming him with a boot to the face at the exact moment skywalker (who is still a jedi knight on windu's side) conveniently, without any seeds about saving padme planted in his mind arrived on the scene. lol Let's all ignore the fact windu couldn't manage to touch palp's, as palps fought 4 JEDI MASTERS in close quarter combat and comfortably and quickly cut down 3 outta 4 JEDI MASTERS, and that palp's kept the one jedi alive, who was a rude condescending S.O.B towards skywalker, to make skywalker choose between a friend and mentor or a treasonous fool. Let's all pretend palp's only weapon was his lightsabre during the fight. And when it came time for windu to land the death blow to palps, windu left himself wide open with his lightsabre raised above his head. It's a good thing palps (at the time had both of his hands in position) didn't have the ability to zap him with force lightning or something lol. Also let's forget windu's rookie mistake leaving himself wide open and telegraphing the death blow, when a simple unexpected lunge may have been more effective. For the windu fanboys we can write that off as bad choreography lol. So, apart from everything we choose to ignore, except palps dumb luck (it's lucky palps isn't behind the scenes conniving and manipulating events that transpire to his design) in killing 4 JEDI MASTERS then turning the prophesied chosen one to the dark side... I whole heartedly agree windu defeated palps. P.S I'm hearing a vicious rumour that skywalker single handedly lived up to the prophesy and defeated palps. Until that can be proven windu beat palps lol

 

People still wonder if Palpatine faked losing? I thought it was blatantly obvious he could have killed Windu as any point in that fight. A mentally disturbed Anakin joining in would not have helped. Palpatine kills them both and still takes control of the galaxy.

 

Alone, Mace bested Sidious. As good as Sidious is, with Anakin, the chosen one, on Mace's side, it would be a curbstomp of epic proportions in favor of the Jedi.

 

Yes, that's what happens on ambiguous scenes. People wonder.

 

Ambiguous to whom? Palpatine has plenty of juice to fry Windu at any time and we're supposed to believe he's too weak to keep fighting?

 

Those who see it that way.

No, he hasn't. He still has power and he's still dangerous if given the chance, but then again, that's the very reason for why Mace was going to destroy him. Besides, if he really could save himself, why does he look shocked and begs when Windu is about to strike? That's his reaction right before Anakin decides to strike, which implies that if Anakin did nothing, he wouldn't be able to save himself.

 

They all lived happily ever after.

 

If Anakin joined Mace I would see them stopping Sidious. Anakin at that point would maybe even admit to being and love with and married at Padme.

 

I know the Mace/Sidious fight is ambiguous, but I feel that the subsequent Yoda/Sidious fight hammers out a lot of that ambiguity. At the end of the Yoda duel, Sidious is in almost exactly the same situation he was in with Mace: empty handed, facing a lightsaber-wielding Jedi Master at close range. This particular Jedi Master has repeatedly been alluded to be the most powerful of the Jedi. This particular Jedi master has encountered Sidious's lightning before and is surely expecting it. This particular Jedi master is in a strong ready stance with a solid two-handed grip on his lightsaber. And Sidious blasts the weapon out of Yoda's hand ... easily. It just takes him a split second to disarm the most powerful Jedi we've seen. I don't think that's just a random beat in an action sequence. I think it's there to show us something about Sidious.

It shows me that ultimately, a lightsaber is just not that much of a threat to Sidious. That's why he can, with complete confidence, goad Luke into striking at him even though he probably shouldn't trust Vader to intercept the blow. Even if Vader just stands back and lets Luke take the swing, Sidious can disarm and disable Luke in a blink. (Vader knows this, and so he knows that this is not the right moment to openly defy his master's wishes.) And that's also why Sidious can, with complete confidence, lie on the floor with a lightsaber to his throat, making a big act out of being helpless and pathetic, all to force Anakin into making a choice between Jedi and Sith. Sidious is in exactly the position he needs to be in. I can't accept that it's just dumb luck.

It's obvious to me now that if Anakin didn't make a move to intercept Mace's clumsy killstroke, Sidious would have simply blasted Mace out the window then and there, and then probably tossed Anakin out after him (having failed the Sith entry test.) Sidious then stands up, calls in Order 66, sends an extra legion of clones to the Jedi Temple to make up for Anakin's absence, and then puts the finishing touches on his Empire Day speech.

Sith Master, people. Kind of a big deal.

Also, given that Jedi are hopelessly terrible at ganging up on someone, I don't think Obi-Wan's presence in a subsequent Yoda/Sidious/Obi-Wan fight would have helped at all. It probably just would have made things worse.

 

I definitely think the two of them together would be able to defeat Sidious, but only if he actually was knocked to the ground by Mace unintentionally. If he did that on purpose, then he'd still be an issue.

One thing's for sure: they'd still have a Republic!

 

Agreed. I think that part of the film was very interesting. For those who knew the OT, it was surprising. Mace actually bested Sidious and was about to end this once and for all. But Anakin turns and betrays him and the Jedi Order. This single act creates the galaxy of the future we see. Had Anakin stood aside, not turned up or joined Mace, then Palpatine would be finished. I think Mace was a better swordsman than Palpatine. Palpatine was stronger in the Force, but at the end of a lightsaber, you could see all the Force lightning in the world wouldn't have helped. It was only when Mace was wounded that he was able to overcome the Jedi. Yoda and Obi Wan could have beaten him, but Obi Wan may have been sacrificed, or maybe Yoda felt he might get in the way or if one died, one would stay alive to continue the fight another day. I think Yoda retreated because he knew that reinforcements (in the form of clone troopers) would come to Palpatine's aid. He had just lost his lightsaber and using the Force alone appeared to result in a stalemate. Palpatine had to just play for time for troopers to come to help.

Yep, Mace bested Palpatine. Had Anakin stayed at home, or just stood there and not intervened, or joined Mace, then Palpatine would be finished. It was this single act at a crucial point in the saga that decided events to come. That was the power of that fight and the scene, not so much that Palpatine took out 3 Jedi before Mace, but that Anakin chose to stop Mace.

Agreed! Palpatine would be finished.

 

You provide an excellent interpretation of Sidious's lightning proficiency, however, I have one question. We know Mace has more physical strength than Yoda. Is it possible that Sidious disarmed Yoda because he could not hold onto the lightsaber like Mace did? Do you think Sidious could have easily disarmed Mace as well?

If so, that would definitely explain why Sidious seemingly gambles his entire plan on persuading Anakin to side against Mace.

 

I think Sidious was able to get out of range of Yoda when the fight cuts to Anakin/Obi-Wan, because as we see later Yoda still has his lightsaber on him. Why Sidious did this is open to interpretation, however, I think that he knew Yoda was better with a blade than he was (look at him groaning in frustration trying to keep Yoda off him when they duel each other). Sidious was being smart, it was clear that he and Yoda were much more evenly matched when it came to the Force, with perhaps Sidious holding a slight advantage. Who knows, perhaps he had taken his earlier defeat at the hands of Mace into accout.

 

Yes, I think that Sidious could have disarmed Mace as easily as Yoda.

In terms of physical strength, Mace is certainly bigger than Yoda, and so could presumably carry more weight or hit harder (more weight behind the blow). I don't know if that necessarily translates into grip strength, though. Yoda's age would probably be more relevant there, and I suppose it's possible that the anatomy of Yoda's hands may have made a difference. However, my feeling is that if Yoda really did find it difficult, for whatever reason, to keep a grip on his saber, then he'd have lost it during one of those furiously fast lightsaber exchanges he'd had with Sidious earlier.

I think this is somewhat beside the point, though. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force, and not just metaphorically. When he's in combat mode, Yoda's physical capabilities appear to equal or exceed those of anyone else we've seen so far. I conclude that anything Sidious did to Yoda, he could have done to Mace. In his confrontation with Mace, he has to walk a fine line. He has to appear to Anakin to be in mortal danger, and he has to appear to Mace to be so supremely dangerous that a coup de grace is warranted. He's got to take a dive, but he also has to be completely convincing. Given how many times this same debate has been waged on these forums, he seems to have done an excellent job.

 

Actually, the Jedi had proof that he was a Sith Lord ( the holocams ) so I don't think the Senate would see them that way. He also attacked Mace & co. first so he can't say they attacked him for no reason.