If Anakin lost midichlorians when losing his limbs then...

Someone needs to get a drop of Palps' blood to test his midiclorian count. It also should be as high as Yodas.

 

I'm pretty sure his was a little over 20,000, Yoda's being almost 18,000.

 

A bodybuilder was needed to wear a forty pound suit.

Although Anakin is weaker in the Force because of his injuries, do his mechanical limbs make him physically stronger? He seems to have a lot of physical stregnth in the OT.

 

I would assume it has to do with his bionic arm. We never see Anakin do anything like that in the PT. The closest is when he grabs Obi-wan by the throat and brings him down to the table. We don't see him lift Obi-wan up off his feet and dangle him in the air, before throwing him. Nor does Anakin choke slam him onto the table.

 

The force is an energy ribon that surrounds all living things; so it's a presence to be tapped into

Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that dwell in all living things. They CONTINUALLY speak to us concerning the will of the force. Without them there would be NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE FORCE and life could not exist.

The relationship between the force and midichlorians is simply one of communication. The force is there and THROUGH THE MIDICHLORIANS force users are able to 'sense' the will of the force. I don't mean this in the cosmic sense but in the sense of 'action' to 'action'. When Anakin is podracing for example; the midichlorians alert him that in a few seconds there will be a sharp turn or a rock to avoid and so USING THE FORCE (the nature of which can be learned with training or time) Anakin avoids the rock or makes the turn in time. The Midichlorians CONTINUALLY speak to the force user; like a rhythm of music or a waterfall to the rocks below.

This constant communication is how force users deliver a flurry of saber strikes or learn to summon lightning or move objects. Even a non force user can have a vast 'knowledge' of the force but the ability to practice that knowledge comes from the voice of the midichlorians giving the force user the appeance of fast reflexes; but is more accuately, the ability to sense the future as it unfolds.

When Vader was separated from his limbs part of that 'voice' was robbed from him. He was still powerful but had lost part of that senseability to predict what's coming. So Lucas is being truthfull when he sais Vader lost some of his skill from the loss of his limbs. And the nature of the midichlorians concerning the Star Wars fantasy is logical and NOT flawed as portrayed in the films.

That being said ......

Vader's concentration of midichlorians dwarfed Yoda's cell for cell. This doesn't mean he is inherrently more powerful than Yoda, but that with time and training his potential is greater. But just like everyone else, he has to learn and listen.

Mass has a bearing on force power in the user. And through a fully developed practitioner, greater mass will mean greater power. Consider that even with his injuries, Vader has almost twice the mass that Yoda has and cell for cell has a greater count of midichlorians. So essentially Vader, with time and training has the potential to be greater than Yoda and the Emperor; purely on a power trip; SUIT or no SUIT.

But .......

The reason Vader lost to Obi Wan is because his emotional turmoil clouded his judgement. The use of the force is dependent on the ability to quiet the mind and listen to the continual communication of the midichlorians.

This is why Dooku was powerless to Anakin once his hands were cut off; because the pain blocks out the concetration. It was the same for Luke in 'Empire' as well as Anakin and Obi Wan in 'Clones'. It's why a distraction killed both Qui Gon and Maul; not to mention Master Windu. If the potential doesn't believe or 'can't' quiet their mind; then the force is useless to them.

The only REAL weakness of Vader is that his ability to live is limited by the functioning of a mechanical device that functions outside of his ability to use the force. This makes it tactically impossible to face a force user with lightning at their disposal; unless he's willing to trade his life for the victory. His tossing of the Emperor like a ragdoll shows that he can absorb a whole heck of a lot of lightning at full force for an extended amount of time. But his suit could not endure it and so he lost his life as a result; an outcome he expected. This same level of impact threw Yoda across the room.

And gimme a break .........

The only reason Vader is claimed to be a weaker force user to such a drastic degree is because of the lackluster saber choreography of the OT compared to the PT. If Lucas was making the OT by today's standard Vader would be just as bad as he was then and nearly as fast. The only difference would be his style of combat: reliant less on mobility and mo

 

Grievous is all machine with almost no organics to him. Vader is half and half. In fact, he has a damaged spine as evidenced when we see him being electrocuted. So right there his fighting abilities are different from Grievous. Grievous has a full on cybernetic body created by the Geonosians and the Intergalactic Banking Clan. If Vader had the same treatment, then he'd be able to fight like Grievous, but he wouldn't have the Force. Since Vader was created on by surgeon droids who were concerned with survival and not creating a living weapon. Darth Vader's physical prowness is different from that of General Grevious, as a result of these differences. A life sustaining suit vs a life sustaining body.

Lucas has created this to set up why Luke is so important to Vader and Palpatine. It follows his creation of the rule of two and the Sith are always concerned with finding someone who is stronger. Sidious lost Maul. He gets Dooku. He finds Anakin who could dwarf Dooku. He pits them against each other and Anakin eventually wins. As he tells Grievous, he will get a better Apprentice. He has a better Apprentice, but when Luke comes along, he goes with Vader's idea of turning him. They are pitted against each other and Luke wins, proving that he's better than Vader in his view. As Sidious told Yoda, Vader will become more powerful than either of them. But Luke is supposedly capable of destroying both Sith Lords, so that makes him stronger than Luke.

Lucas wanted it to be loss of power due to loss of Midichlorians in his limbs. He still has plenty elsewhere, but not as many Midichlorian fillled cells as before. The fewer Midichlorian cells in his entire system, the less his connection is to the Force. Remember, the Sith are concerned with physical power. The Jedi are concerned with everything except power. And as we know, when they die, the Jedi will become one with the Force and grow even stronger. They transform into the Force.

The Jedi deal with the spiritial aspects of the Force. The Sith deal with the physical aspects of the Force. The Jedi want knowledge. The Sith want power.

 

With that in mind we get to my point. By losing his limbs and being burned up, Anakin loses his power. You say, how is that possible given the rules of science. Well, this is not about the rule of science. This is about symbolism. Anakin becomes more machine than man, twisted and evil.

It is not impossible given the rules of science, it is impossible given his established logic. To borrow a tactic of yours: ?Star Wars is a fictitious environment that has to have some reality to it," Lucas says. Sound and fire in space is part of our suspension of disbelief for dramatic effect: but that suspension has its own limits, and this is generally that the little universe a film/s build must be consistent. I am I no way saying we must impose upon it all the limitations of our world; it would hardly be fantasy then. However these films have to be within reason?if they make no sense on closer inspection it goes from symbolism to just plain sloppy. In Kill Bill the Bride has the stormtrooper effect going for her (another suspension of disbelief) when she fighters the Crazy 88; but it would be a whole ?nother ballgame if Tarantino said on the DVD commentary the reason she can fight like that (let?s say twice better than when she was Black Mamba) is because she had a baby, and her motherhood has empowered her. Yes it has a symbolic meaning and thematic purpose, that mothers will perhaps transcend their usual limitations to protect or avenge their children (lifting the car cliché), but it still is rather ridiculous that because she gave birth she can fight with superhuman acumen. Lucas has said he wants to create a modern mythology with Star Wars?which means a mythology that can be bought by the more cynical and discerning audience of modernity?it has to be make sense even in a fantastical context. So while you have a point of rationalization of the story following the story itself, so do I have a point that that rationalization is key for the saga to work. Without it working, Star Wars would fall into the trap of many pulp and space opera stories: a disconnect with the audience and being disposable because their reality has no boundaries?it is changed to suit their needs. On the ROTJ commentary he said as much: the movies are in-between not taking themselves seriously (i.e. bogged down in details or self-importance) but not being able to just be written off as silly and worthless. Not rules of science, rules of logic: it has to make sense/cohere.

We then find out how powerful in TPM. But to justify the point that Vader is subservient after saying that he will kill Palpatine, we see that Vader is injured. He is less than he was before.

We see that he is injured physically and emotionally, we are told he is less than before. Told outside the movie as clean up to reconcile why TPM?s prodigy is still letting old man Sidious play the Watto role in his life. Now that would be fine, but as I have shown, the explanation for why he is less is not reasonable. Even forgetting midichlorians and mitochondria, Lucas has said that because of his injuries he is less a living thing and so less in touch with the Force. Now there is less of him material wise, but is he less a living thing? Were you to get into a very bad car accident Sinister, or I for that matter, and we had double amputation, spinal fusions, and incredibly bad burns, would we be less human, less alive, less connected to the rest of the world/circle of life? Is that which makes life sacred innate to how functional the organism is? And if so, should the physically disabled and vegetables of the world be treated as something less than human? These are dark thoughts if taken to their conclusion, and this is my biggest problem with the Mustafar injury = lost Force rationale. In the monomyth that Lucas apps, the hero must go through immense loss and a state akin to death, but becomes even more powerful. And a common motif in mythology is physical loss or injury allows a character to heighten their spiritual side or gain new self-ma

 

When she fights* the Crazy 88. I normally catch that kind of stuff.

 

That's all a matter of point of view. One sees it as sloppy, another does not. That's just how it is. We both know this. If you look for reason in a fantasy, then you are losing the fantastic. It's the kind of issue I have with my brother who hates films that he says aren't realistic, yet he loves Star Wars and Star Trek. To which I say one should just enjoy the film and try not to inspect everything and nitpick it to death. Otherwise they'll see flaws in everything.

Well that's what it comes down to. You and others like you see it as incoherent that Vader is weaker because he's damaged goods. I and others like me see it as coherent. As I more or less said in my earlier posts about this today/yesterday, there is a logic there. Though I can also say after reading this and from before, that it while it's coherent to him and others, it will probably never be that way for you and others like you. In short, you can't please all the people all the time. No matter how hard you try.

 

Midichlorians, according to Lucas, were nothing more than a metaphor to demonstrate and more importantly illustrate in a tangible way Anakin's increased Forced sensitivity as opposed to other Jedi.

It wasn't enough to say "My goodness, look how strong the boy is in the Force." A comparitive aspect was needed to distinguish Anakin from all other Jedi.

That's why the concept was never pursued or elaborated on further, because they don't really mean anything. The particulars and minutia of Midichlorians are irrelevant.

They simply served as a mechanism to clearly indicate "yes, this boy is the most powerful Force user we have discovered."

The Force still retains it's mystical and magical elements as espoused by Ben on Tatootine and Yoda on Dagobah. Lucas didn't intend the "science" of Midichlorians to hijack the mystical, unknown nature of the Force.

I always thought people over-reacted in their initial declarations of heresy when TPM came out regarding Midichlorians....well, and Jar-Jar, and 9 year old Anakin, etc. I didn't find anything wrong with such things.

 

I hate it, as well. Personally, I think the idea of Anakin becoming less powerful with the Force due to the loss of limbs is a stupid theory that makes no sense.

 

While I respect this view and you as a poster, consider that Yoda requires the use of a cane to help him in his walking. AOTC gave him the Star Wars equivalent of a wheelchair so that he could keep up with Mace and Obi Wan in their discussion.

This goes hand in hand with the idea that when these special beings engage in combat, they are using the force, not their physical bodies except as a channeller. Yoda leaps through the air and blinds his opponents with his speed and grace. But in his time when the force is not needed he humbly refrains from force use to make his day to day walk easier. He accepts his physical limitations and uses a cane to help his old age.

Obi Wan jumping up to the higher platform in TPM was def not a physical act alone; neither was the speedy escape Qui Gon and Obi Wan employ to rid themselves of the Droidekas. By these examples in the films, Vader is capable of the same thing. This is why he can use a robotic arm with such grace and speed in Ep 3.

Now I for one have never taken the time to slow Return of the Jedi down to a speed where I can examine the lighting lit suit to see the fracture in his spine; if it's even there. Admitting that limitation on my part, it is possible that it's an optical illusion or that the Emperor broke Vader's spine in that very assault. But even if his spine was injured like the image suggests, it may have been abandoned when reimagining Vader's injuries on Mustafar. I mean 20 years had passed by that point and maybe Lucas wanted to take it in a different direction; esspecially considering the broken spine isn't easily visible. Because from what I saw in the film ROTS, his back was never broken. His struggle up the burning sand as well as him rolling over on his back sort of go against that idea.

Even so, I mean even if his back had been fractured. He was repaired well enough to walk with a determined pace and there is no pain to block out his concentration of the force. So by this he should be under the same rules of force use that Yoda employs.

This brings me back to the same conclusion as my above post. That the only reason Vader has been donned as so very injured and or weak in the OT is because the choreography of the films is lackluster compared to the PT. I'm not clowing Lucas or anything like that, it's just a visual fact of the times, budget and schedule. Count Dooku's performance alone lends suspician on Old Ben's perfomance. The advance of digital technology as well as fight choreography becoming an industry in and of itself has left the days of having to create a physical reference in the dust. If the OT were being made today as sequels to the PT; Vader and Obi Wan would be shown at nearly the same level of grace and speed as demonstrated in Ep 3.

 

>>>>I already explained this twice. Anakin STILL HAS MORE midi-chlorian than Yoda. More total and more per cell. That's not even questioned. In case you haven't noticed Yoda is tiny, he doesn't have much mass to start with.

Apparently the mass doesn't matter.

I seem to recall bad radio posting that in smaller living creatures, the size of their cells is proportionately smaller too, and therefore it is perfectly possible for Yoda to have the concentration and the mass of Midis.

Although, of course, at the time of his Midi Count, Anakin had more than the Jedi Master.


-JR

 

The hover chair was only added because Lucas worried that Yoda wouldn't look like the puppet walking along side Sam Jackson and Ewan MacGregor. They had to take time to get Yoda to look right walking alongside Obi-wan after their discussion about Kamino. By ROTS, they didn't need a hoverchair anymore. Yoda was good enough that Coleman didn't need it. The gimmer stick was always there since the final design of Freeborn's puppet. But we also see that Yoda doesn't need it all the time, as we see him fight and crawl without it. Yoda is an aged Jedi Master. Vader is someone who can walk with a pair of droid legs, which doens't require a cane. Something that in real life, people with artifical legs need.

But he is a whole being.

Well, here's the thing. If Vader was capable of doing that in a battle, then he would. We never see that in the OT. Granted this was due to the special effects limitations of the day. But if we are to look at it from the in-universes angle, Vader never uses a Force assisted jump, except maybe once. And that was to jump down the stairs at Luke. Luke does a backflip in the throne room, but Vader never jumps up after him. Twirling a saber is just style. We don't see the other areas where Vader should be fighting either like Luke or as he was capable of, before his injuries. Again, looking at it from the in-universe angle.

Actually, it was supposed to have been damanaged with his injuries. You can see a fusion and neck brace. It's also listed as part of Vader's injuries in a few of the non-fiction books. You still see the brace on Vader's neck in ROTS, just before the mask is lowered into place. Not saying that he cannot walk normally. Just that we don't see him doing flips and jumps, from an in-universe explaination.

 

I can recall Vader using the Force to leap in either ESB or ROTJ.

 

Vader jumped down a flight of stairs. That might not have been Force assisted. All we see is that he jumps down from the top step.

 

there seem to be 2 contradicting sides to this issue.

1. anakin's weaker because he lost body mass = loss of midis. as GL says 'he's really more machine.' indicating organic MASS does equate to force power.

BUT

2. the movies seem to say its more about midi DENSITY/CONCENTRATION.

how can they both be right?

 

That's why I said that as long as Anakin's 100% he will achieve the greatness that Palpatine forsees. But because he has far fewer Midichlorian cells in his body, he cannot reach those heights. He can get up to Dooku's level, but not dwarfing Palpatine. Not even matching him.

 

I thought "midichlorian count" was the same as a "chromosome count." Humans are born with 46 chromosomes, and as far as I know, a person does not lose chromosomes when he or she loses limbs. If I remember my genetics, these 46 chromosomes are present in all human cells. This explains how Obi-Wan was able to measure Anakin's midichlorian count just from Ani's blood sample.

As for Anakin being weaker, remember during Luke's training, Yoda implies that the Dark Side is not as strong as the "Light Side." Since Anakin is consumed by the Dark Side, he is therefore not as strong as he was when he was still using the Light Side.

Just my 2 credits.

 

alansmithee85, your interpretation and analysis of Lucas' flawed logic regarding the Midichlorians is absolutely brilliant, as is your vastly superior alternative explanation for why Anakin doesn't reach his potential, sans going the ridiculous Mids route. Bravo!

We will be watching your career with great interest. he he he...

 

Great stuff. I love the back and forth and different ideas.

Anyway I don't put too much stock in the GL quotes for interviews just because they are interviews sometimes searching for words you can say something and mean one thing but it comes across as something else.

Like the quote about Vader being just like Maul or Dooku, well Duh, I can see the "like" as meaning he was an apprentice just like them, not meaning he was only equal to their power.

And for the quote on the 80%, GL said some like "maybe 20% less", well MAYBE 20% does not equal 20%. Maybe could be +/- 5,10, heck 15%.

The important thing is Vader wasn't strong enough to overthrow the Emperor - for what ever reason.
Or was he...
Both Yoda and Mace I would put on equal footing and you can argue those battles were draws.

So even if Vader was equal or even "slightly better" (maybe Yoda or Mace were better thatn Sidious) than the Emperor that would not guarantee victory in a battle 1-1, as seen by the Yoda and Mace duals.

Vader could have just been biding his time for 20 years. Heck teh Emperor plotting against the Jedi for about that long. Get elected Sen Naboo, get Elected Chance, start, war, stay in power, etc.
Maybe Vader was just waiting for the right time, hey and low and behold Luke pops up.

And now to submit a more Nerdly explantions
and why you shouldn't take the percentages too seriously or the so called "diminished" skills of Vader:

Nerdly Math:

Jedi vs. Jedi (equal skill)
1 vs. 1 =
1/2 = 50% meaning 50% chance for either to win.

Twice as powerful Anakin vs. Sidious
2 vs. 1 =
2/3 = 67% meaning even when Sidious says Anakin will be twice as powerful as he or Yoda, he'd only have a 67% chance of winning a one on one fight.

Now 80% Anakin vs. Sidious
.8 vs. 1 =
.8/1.8 = 44.4% meaning even a weakened Vader (OT) has about a 45% chance to defeat Sidious as is. that is practically the 50% he would have if they were even in power.

Either way no matter how powerful Vader is/was at the time of the OT, the safe bet is to wait for a possible apprentice and defeat your master 2 on 1. Unless of course you kill him while he sleeps.

Note:
I instituted to Math to show just how ridiculous it can get when you start putting a "value" on the force powers. And there really isn't that much of a difference from a 2X Anakin and a .8 Anakin vs. Sidious. Obviously 2X has better odds, but Sidious still defeats him 33% of the time. Would you take that chance against Sidious? Or would you still wait for a possible apprentice to help?
In order for it to be 90% favor, Anakin would have to be 9 times better than Sid.

Numbers shmumbers.

 

I find the Anakin losing midichlorians when losing his limbs and beeing less powerful pretty stupid. I can see him being weaker because maybe he needs to rely onnhis siut for keeping him alive. But the midichlorian thing is just rediculas. So what were saying is that Anakin and Luke lost a little power after they got there hands and arms cutoff.




Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith

 

But as I've pointed out, there is a good reason it seems for Lucas to say that it's more to do with what a Sith and a Jedi view, versus internal struggles.

It has implications in regard to his becoming evil. If this were a tale of a good man who struggles with his physical limitations, the story would reflect that. But this is a story of a good man gone bad, who has a limitation that serves a purpose later on. And how we see him in a physical sense. The limitation is mostly for a plot point and deals on in how evil sees limitations, whereas good does not see limits as a bad thing.

But maybe he did mean to imply them. We have to remember who we are talking about here and how old this story of Vader's journey is. Maybe the implication is as clear as that. Vader is so dead inside that he is less than he was before. It goes a long way of separating Anakin from Vader.

I must admit, this is a rather nice irony. Quotemaster putting words in Lucas? mouth, making speculative supposition. Didn?t think ?maybe? was in your vocabulary. First off, you obviously didn?t get what I meant when I said Lucas was accidentally implying something bad, but I will elucidate below. As for what you said above, Lucas isn?t implying that Vader is dead inside, so he is less than he was before: he?s saying that outright! ?Maybe the implication is as clear as that,? you say? There is no implication, that?s the statement, and he made it.

In the quotes from Lucas regarding Vader going from twice the price to a 20% off sale, he mentions the Sith attitude toward limitations but that has nothing to do with what I?m talking about. You are confused and made quite a few comments about something ancillary at best to what I was saying. Yes the Sith only care for physical power; by the way it is more than physical power?let?s call it the powers of domination and coercion. So anything that lessens one?s personal abilities is yes, a bad thing in their eyes. And of course the Jedi are not consumed with power?they address it in their way, but limitations of body or command of the Force wouldn?t matter to them. The juxtaposition of the Jedi and Sith view is a no brainier, I don?t think you?ll find someone to argue with you on this?least of all me. But if Yoda got all his limbs lopped off, he?d allegedly lose a lot of power, regardless of the Jedi or Sith viewpoints; Lucas sees this fact as self-evident, a ?duh? statement, that it?s perfectly correct to assume robot parts = Force loss. And the implications of this assumption, this statement, is what is wrong.

Now, to get things clear like crystal:
?Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left.? --George Lucas. Read the statement carefully. Lucas equates being a human being with being PHYSICALLY whole, and when Anakin loses his parts he becomes half a robot (ergo half a human). He then says he?s not much of a living form in that state. Now let?s do some rudimentary deduction:

Clause One: Anakin was a full human when he was whole, but lost his humanity in part when he became physically less/replaced by bionics.
Clause Two: Some people are not whole due to either injury or birth.
Thus: Because some people lack their limbs and/or functioning major organs (not whole, less of a living form), they are NOT FULLY HUMAN.

Clause One: We accord certain rights and dignities to human beings alone because they are special, set above all other living things.
Clause Two: Some ?people? have been determined to have less than a complete humanity?they are more machine than men or women.
Thus: Because some people aren?t fully human, they don?t deserve human rights.

This is what I mean by Lucas saying something with implications that I?m sure he doesn?t mean. This statement implies that if he didn?t walk away from tha

 

Enough with the personal jabs. I don't give them to you, don't do that to me. I've let it slide, but you're getting too carried away.

Why is it right?

There's the thing. Lucas is connecting it to a man who has already lost his humanity in the moral, psychological and spirital sense. The physical aspect is a consequence of his evil deeds. Of his anger and arrogance running away from him. Vader is punished for his evil, by his disfigurement and losing some of his power. Yes, if you look at it in the light that you see it as, it l

 

Is it at all possible to get your point across in fewer paragraphs, isntead of writing large essays.


Is it at all possible to get YOUR point across without continously pasting contradictions that Lucas has said over the years. It's clear that this whole Midichlorian concentration is a small plot hole of some type. Yet you insist on cutting and pasting the same thing over and over again. I know you are a moderator, and I will get blasted for "Insulting a moderator" and possibly even banned, but you are really blinded by the Lucas Commentary, which indeed should not be considered canon. Seeing as how this is a "Revenge of the Sith" message board, where books, comics, comentaries, and Clone Wars Cartoons cannot be brought into the debate without a "no-no" from the moderators, why don't you try defending the point with the information given in CANON, which apparently included A. The Movies. B. The Movies and C. The Movies. Because you can't.

I've specifically stated that I am NOT PT, I am not pro OT, I am not anti OT or PT, I love the saga as a whole. There are plot holes that I can overlook, but this one is much too large of a mistake. Tell me from what you saw in the movies that proves that Anakin will lose his powers by losing limbs. Don't cut and p