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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

If Anakin lost midichlorians when losing his limbs then...

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by DarthDischarge, Dec 2, 2005.

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  1. JediCouncilMember

    JediCouncilMember Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2003
    It is not a plot hole, it is just not relevant to go that deeply into.

    Midi's allow individuals to hear the Will of the Force.

    Great! That was stated in TPM and in the PT.

    And I guess it is no where overtly stated loss of limb = loss of power.

    But I don't think it is that hard to see the OT Vader is not the same as the PT Vader.

    As I stated before, I think you run into trouble when you try and put a "value" on the Force. I think GL just wanted to convey to the interviewer that yes, Vader isn't as powerful as Sidious. He wanted to be all powerful, saw himself as all power, but in the end he sold out only to stay an apprentice to Sidious.

    That is all you need.

    But if you start taking about so so be 2x as powerful, or 80% of that, or 4X this then you run into trouble because things now become quantifable and compable.

    Again,
    Anakin 2X of Sidious only has a 67% chance of defeating him.
    Just an open question to anyone,
    I have 3 pieces of paper, on 2 of them are written "ruler of Galaxy", and I one is "death"
    Do you take the chance? Knowing 33% chance of death. Seems a bit risky to me.

    And also Yoda, Mace, Sidious all equal in power all only have a 50% chance to defeat each other.

    And a .8 Anakin STILL has a 45% chance to defeat Sidious. Not much of a difference even if he was equal to Sidious.

    Whether Vader is 80%, 90%, or 100% of the power of the emperor is really irrelevant. All that matters is Anakin gave up everything and just became a side kick and never reached all powerful status.

    However, he did defeat the Emperor.

    He couldn't have been that weak.

    Mace didn't survive his encounter (thanks to Ani)
    Yoda drew a stalemate
    Luke gets toasted

    Injured Vader (weaken by a duel with Luke no less), single handily picks up the Emp and defeats him.

    My overall point is, I don't think you can put a Value on the Force and I think gets silly to due so (demonstrated by my ridiculus calculations). I think GL just wanted to get across the point that Anakin gave up everything he had, he loved, and charished and NEVER became all powerful. At least not until his redemtion.

    EDIT:

    Also, it didn't appear that it took much skill for Palp to kill his master while he slept. Perhaps Vader just liked being told what to do (after the Obi incident). Perhaps Plagueis made a mistake telling Palp everything he knew. It is not unreasonable to Think Sid learned his lesson and ultimately held out on Vader and strung him along. Also remember, Anakin did have a life of servitude. Him being a slave boy is important.
     
  2. Parparamia

    Parparamia Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 17, 2004
    If loosing parts of your body mean loosing Midichlorians....then what happens if a Jedi goes through massive weight gain and weighs upwards of 500 pounds? I know it sounds kind of silly but...[face_plain]
     
  3. Fox4

    Fox4 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2005
    I'm going to go out on a limb:p , and say he was weakened.
     
  4. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Darth Sinister wrote:
    ?Enough with the personal jabs. I don't give them to you, don't do that to me. I've let it slide, but you're getting too carried away.?

    They are playful if not frustrated; in the same post I said I?m sure you?re a nice guy. If you have something witty, by all means fire back. To some, verbal sparring is part of the fun of talking about something; but to others it is offensive, so point taken. But banning me would hardly be a judicious response, as coming here to respond to you the past few days is the most I have visited the forums since the release of Episode III: banning would not be the terrible thing it would to others, and it might look bad to ban someone simply because of a bruised ego. Furthermore, your words have hardly been innocent. I was completely amiable at first, and then you presumed to try and give me lessons. Being a moderator does not entitle one to talk down to others, especially when your point is by no stretch of the imagination unassailable.

    ?Why is it right??

    I don?t know what that is referring to or means, and I guess now I?ll never know. Oh alas?

    ?There's the thing. Lucas is connecting it to a man who has already lost his humanity in the moral, psychological and spirital sense. The physical aspect is a consequence of his evil deeds. Of his anger and arrogance running away from him. Vader is punished for his evil, by his disfigurement and losing some of his power. Yes, if you look at it in the light that you see it as, it looks like the wrong message. But if you look at it from a different view, then you can see what he's going for.

    It goes without saying that people interpet things different. In this case, it seems to me that you only focus on your interpetation that you've cleaned from his statements about Vader being less than he was before. I don't know if you consider the other aspect or not. Maybe if you did, you could see where Lucas is coming from
    .?

    The word is gleaned, not cleaned. Now, up above you don?t get what I?m saying, because I have showed in no small amount of writing, in the very post you replied to in fact (just a few paragraphs down), that I do get what Lucas originally wanted to show and where he is coming from. Vader?s injuries symbolize his loss of humanity due to his hubris and lusts, agreed. And a loss of spiritual connection to the Force could be interpreted to symbolize his ego?s disconnect from the greater universe/web of life. It is when that is reversed from the injuries symbolizing to causing his loss of humanity that there are problems. Concept one: Vader losses his humanity, assumes the injuries as manifestation of that loss. Concept Two: his injuries cause him to be less human. You seem to vacillate from arguing one concept to the other, or confusing one for the other. While I would like to put Lucas? comments in concept one, they are fairly straightforward and ascribe the causation of Vader?s weakening in the Force explicitly to his physical lessening. A pity. But I have to admit a certain amount of satisfied vindication in seeing you arguing for multiple interpretations of Lucas? comments. This is a big jump forward when earlier in this thread you would merely quote Lucas, give you interpretation, and say ?done deal, get over it.? Perhaps the annoyance I have caused might have had a positive effect. Or that could just be me inflating myself?.

    ?There have been those that have maintained that technology in Star Wars is seen to be evil, though sometimes a necessary evil. The Death Star which destroys planets. Star Destroyers, which also bares a destructive name and enough of them could destroy a planet, if they had enough firepower to do so. The evils of cloning technology in the Clone/Stormtrooper Army. The Droid Armies of the Confederacy. Darth Vader is already an evil man to before losing his humanity physically.

    This theme is and has been consistant since almost the beginning. Especially once it was confirmed that Vader is not a robot, but a cyborg. And even before
     
  5. LaanKro

    LaanKro Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    As I said...pig wrestling.
     
  6. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2005
    ZIIING! Now I'm twice cut down by that butter knife-sharp wit
     
  7. LaanKro

    LaanKro Jedi Youngling

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    May 19, 2004
    Glad I didn't have to label it, either time.
     
  8. Obi-Twice-Kenobi

    Obi-Twice-Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2003
    If Anakin lost midichlorians when losing his limbs then...

    For a drink.


     
  9. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    that I do get what Lucas originally wanted to show and where he is coming from. Vader?s injuries symbolize his loss of humanity due to his hubris and lusts, agreed. And a loss of spiritual connection to the Force could be interpreted to symbolize his ego?s disconnect from the greater universe/web of life.


    Now I can accept this POV - that the loss of Anakin's limbs (and midichlorians) as a symbol of Anakin's weakened connection to the Force. It's a lot more easier to accept that simply stating that Anakin became weaker with the Force because he lost a few limbs.
     
  10. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Thank you.
     
  11. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000




    Yes, that makes a whole lot of sense. However though, it's not like Vader still isn't powerful in the force afterward his injuries in ROTS, since he is still able to A) sense the force in Luke during the Battle of Yavin, B) talking to Luke through the force right before the end of ESB and C) force choking the various Imperials that he did throughout the OT.
     
  12. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2005
    DarthTunick, before you invite a swarm of quotes down upon you, neither side is implying Vader is not strong in the Force. One side says that he is basically Dooku in a suit when he could have been twice as powerful as the Emperor, the other side questions both that assertion and, if that?s true let?s say, the causation of how he got knocked down from 2xPalpatine to .8 Palpatine. The big matter of contention is whether or not Lucas? comments about that (because Anakin got mutilated and burned up he lost connection to the Force) are valid and supported in the films.
     
  13. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 26, 2000
    Well then it's my fault for looking through the thread. :p
     
  14. LucasCop2

    LucasCop2 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2004
    This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for everybody's time and effort in providing intelligent information. It makes for a good read and actually got me interested in writing a response for once.

    Being a proponent of the concept of midichlorians in the Star Wars myth, here's my take on the whole subject:

    Having sustained life threatening injuries, Anakin is no longer fully focused on listening to the will of the Force. Instead, the primary focus of the midichlorians in his system is to maintain his life. Without midichlorians, life would not exist... This activity of preventing infections at his severed limbs, his scarred skin, and his burned internal organs, divert the attention of midichlorians from channelling the Force for Anakin's manipulation. Therefore, not only are there less midichlorians channelling the Force altogether, the density that actually exists in his system is less receptive to Anakin's active control of the Force because they are expending more energy into preserving his life.

    Now...about the message that being part machine means somehow that one is less human:
    I would argue that you are actually incorrectly interpreting the myth that Lucas had laid out. Lucas is actually revealing at the conclusion to ROTJ that despite the fact that Anakin was indeed "more machine than man", it was not enough to deter him from finding moral virtues in defeating the evil and bringing balance back to the Force. Simply because Anakin is less Force-sensitive after being dependent on machines for life is not indication that he is less human. Anakin is less Force-sensitive because he was on the brink of death - thanks to his overconfidence - and needed to be maintained in a life support system where his midichlorians were working in overdrive to simply keep him alive. The fact that he is even alive is testament to his strength in the Force - not necessarily that he has undergone a resultant loss in aptitude.

    Throughout the films, and Obi-Wan in particular, the assumption is that Vader is no longer human because he is part-machine. Luke, on the other hand, staunchly disagrees with this supposition, and ultimately is proven correct; Vader/Anakin always had the seed of a good person who had lost his moral compass, but in the end, was saved (morally) by his son.

    I think anyone would argue that - all things being equal - a person with two midichlorians would likely be twice as receptive to the Force than a person with just one midichlorian in his entire system. Therefore, given the fact that after his defeat on Mustafar, the quantity of midichlorians in his system had been reduced by some arbitrary amount (who really cares how much), his overall connection with the Force (whatever it was beforehand) has been non-trivially diminished making him less powerful as a Force-sensitive being. Apparently it was enough, such that he was no longer strong enough to overthrow Sidious. Perhaps with extra hard training he could use his overwhelming existing midichlorian density to overcome this deficiency, but in viewing the sequels, alas, we must conclude that he could not pass beyond the threshold - particularly because those remaining midichlorians were already pre-occupied to begin with as I had discussed earlier.

    Therefore, Lucas' quotes about him being less powerful because of lost limbs is, in fact, a sound argument, and perfectly in line with what we already know about the Force and the role of midichlorians in general.
     
  15. Darth_Punk

    Darth_Punk Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002

    "They (Midichlorians) also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force."

    --George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

    "Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he?s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

    I'm just quoting what Lucas said. His injuries have weakened him. A good part of his power is gone and as it appears, is connected to the loss of limbs. I know that some people find it hard to believe, but unlike Yoda who is small, Anakin is less than whole. It seems that one who is whole is stronger than one who is less than whole. He's still strong for a Sith Lord, but he's not on par with what he should be. The limbs and fire have diminished him.



    With all that in mind, then when Obi-Wan died he had no power with the force because he no longer has any midichlorins.
    So what he said to Vader about if you strike me down I will become more powerful, was a lie.
     
  16. LucasCop2

    LucasCop2 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2004
    Ahh...but through the guidance of Qui Gon, Obi Wan found a way to transfer consciousness into the Force.

    His abilities ultimately extended beyond the expected boundaries of the real into the surreal.

    Such abilities do not impede our understanding of the role of midichlorians in the realm of the physical.
     
  17. voodoopuuduu

    voodoopuuduu Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2004
    With all that in mind, then when Obi-Wan died he had no power with the force because he no longer has any midichlorins.
    So what he said to Vader about if you strike me down I will become more powerful, was a lie.



    Dont forget what Yoda said, "Rejoice for those who around you who transform into the force". Obi-Wan was transformed into the force. His awesome power comes not from what he can personally do, but from the force users he can haunt and influence, hence the statement.
     
  18. Darth_Punk

    Darth_Punk Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    So are you saying that he is no longer Obi-Wan, but he is now a part of the force?

    I tell you what, Star Wars was a lot more simpler before the prequels
     
  19. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2005
    ?Having sustained life threatening injuries, Anakin is no longer fully focused on listening to the will of the Force. Instead, the primary focus of the midichlorians in his system is to maintain his life. Without midichlorians, life would not exist... This activity of preventing infections at his severed limbs, his scarred skin, and his burned internal organs, divert the attention of midichlorians from channelling the Force for Anakin's manipulation. Therefore, not only are there less midichlorians channelling the Force altogether, the density that actually exists in his system is less receptive to Anakin's active control of the Force because they are expending more energy into preserving his life.?

    There are processes of the body that do that, without midichlorians. But perhaps yes that is an interesting angle to take: that his injuries were so bad that it would kill a normal person, but his command of the Force (and hate at this point) is working to keep his body unnaturally continuing?he?s being held together by his will. So using the Force it would be like trying to keep one?s balance standing on one foot while wrestling with a guy at the same time?he?s perpetually multitasking. Not bringing himself back from death, for if he was able to do that there would have been no fall to the dark side in the first place, but clinging to life due to his hate past his natural point of death. Considering that the Jedi can transcend the effects of aging (Dooku and his acrobatics), and when Luke says ?Master Yoda, you can?t die,? (which must mean decay and death may be staved off for a time by strength in the Force, and Luke sees Yoda as so powerful that he could do so forever) that has some indirect backing in the films.

    ?Simply because Anakin is less Force-sensitive after being dependent on machines for life is not indication that he is less human.? Ah, but this is what Lucas has said several times explicitly. On the ROTJ DVD he even chuckles when he says it, as if to say??duh.?

    ?Anakin is less Force-sensitive because he was on the brink of death - thanks to his overconfidence - and needed to be maintained in a life support system where his midichlorians were working in overdrive to simply keep him alive. The fact that he is even alive is testament to his strength in the Force - not necessarily that he has undergone a resultant loss in aptitude.? Lucas has also said explicitly that there is a loss of aptitude, and that the causation is his Mustafar injuries. This does seem to be his thought on the matter. Not that I agree, just saying we are making a departure from what is the official line. And that you enter the realm of speculation now, so be careful about using your theory as justification for another point. That being said the more I think about it, I do like this explanation of Vader?s strength/weakness.

    ?Throughout the films, and Obi-Wan in particular, the assumption is that Vader is no longer human because he is part-machine. Luke, on the other hand, staunchly disagrees with this supposition, and ultimately is proven correct; Vader/Anakin always had the seed of a good person who had lost his moral compass, but in the end, was saved (morally) by his son.? I don?t know if in the films themselves there is this assumption?that line of Obi-Wan?s could be speaking figuratively of Vader?s injuries?testament to his lack of humanity, not the cause of it. You are right, if Vader in his state can be redeemed and Anakin Skywalker return then being human isn?t intrinsic to the body. His injuries were always symbolic as I understood them. That when Vader consumed Skywalker, his being a shell or mockery of what he once was is made manifest in his actual physical appearance. It is interesting that when Anakin returns, the Vader armor is destroyed. Symbolically, by regaining his humanity he has to lose the symbol of its loss?the Vader shell. First the hand as a precursor, then his suit is shorted out, and finally his death?s head mask is discarded for the man inside. Unfortuna
     
  20. voodoopuuduu

    voodoopuuduu Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2004
    then what happens if a Jedi goes through massive weight gain and weighs upwards of 500 pounds?

    He would get fat, lazy midiclorians. :D In theory, he could still use the force, but the midis wouldnt want to expend the energy to do anything. :p
     
  21. LucasCop2

    LucasCop2 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2004
    If quantity were true as you say, Anakin after Mustafar has a comparable number of cells as his 9 year old self?and then his count per cell was higher than Yoda?s.


    No. His Force sensitivity at 21 years is much more in tune with the midichlorians' communication with the energy field than it was at 9 years. So the effect of just one midichlorian at age 21 is greater than what it was at age 9.

    Such a description explains why tiny Yoda, despite a lower midi density and lower total midi mass than Anakin/Vader could still be more proficient in the Force. Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?

    Midichlorian count is not a true indicator of Force ability. It is only an indicator of Force potential. And a general qualitative one at that - not necessarily a relativistic quantitative comparator. This bastardization of the midi count to drive Padawan initiation was probably a leading candidate for the arrogance in the Jedi Order as spoke of by Yoda in the PT. (But that's a topic for another day...)


    Ah, here is where we disagree. I do not believe that the quantity matters, that it is a sum total game.

    Here?s the thing, 2 vs. 1 midichlorians on a system-wide level is irrelevant (I think).


    ....and then you say....


    a cell that has more of the energy field flowing through it in turn creates more midichlorians to ?hear? more Force.


    And ?hearing more Force? does what exactly to your Force sensitivity?

    Be careful here, because you are contradicting yourself now. You make the claim that density per cell makes a difference, yet total count does not. I simply dispersed the proposed density argument from within one cell to be within one body. The argument does not change. One system has less midis than another system.

    Your Prana description is very intriguing by the way.....
     
  22. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    JediCouncilMember:

    Also, it didn't appear that it took much skill for Palp to kill his master while he slept. Perhaps Vader just liked being told what to do (after the Obi incident). Perhaps Plagueis made a mistake telling Palp everything he knew. It is not unreasonable to Think Sid learned his lesson and ultimately held out on Vader and strung him along. Also remember, Anakin did have a life of servitude. Him being a slave boy is important.



    Very good points, JCM.

    Another thing to consider, is the fact that Sid was ready to kill 'primo' Luke at the end of ROTJ, once he wouldn't turn, and apparently go without or stick with the so-called 'piece of crap' Vader for another 23 or so years. This last point, like the ones that JCM and others brought up, renders the whole 'power equation' that's being discussed here a moot point....



     
  23. Cantina

    Cantina Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Well said.

    I'm adding you to my watched users. Thanks for the read.

    - Cantina
     
  24. Parparamia

    Parparamia Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Not to pry here but if loosing body mass means the loss of midichlorians, then shouldn't gaining body mass mean gaining midichlorians. It really is a hole in the theory because, well I'm sure Sidious knows of this...he would stuff himself silly and gain a whole bunch of weight...more weight....more body mass...more blood = more midichlorians===more power. He seemed to be pretty thin for an old timer. I know that GL said that a loss of body mass = less midi's....great...how does he explain the other side of it. It may seem like I am joking, well sort of am, but I also am curious...it makes logical sense to me and the fact that you don't have a bunch of sumo size Jedi running around is beyond me. I find no plausable verbal workaround (even for AGFFA) for this theory if it does not include gaining midichlorians by gaining body mass/blood.

    :confused:
     
  25. Master_EdgeCrusher

    Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2005
    No I do not think so. Anikan could not have killed the Emp then......
     
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