If AOTC had been Episode I, would it have been received more favourably?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthHomer, Oct 24, 2002.

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  1. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    how utterly stupid that movie is

    If you intend to badmouth TPM, you could at least list your reasons.

    i mean, the good guys win the battle due to a combination of clumsiness, stupidity, and plain dumb luck

    Plain dumb luck: Han showing up in the Falcon at the exact moment Vader shot at Luke at Yavin
  2. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    of course good timing (not to mention bravery) played a role in that movie (and every action/adventure/scifi movie before or since). But the outcome of TPM relied almost exclusively on what im gonna call the OOPS FACTOR.

    and i dont really need to explain it. just watch jar jar and Ani in action during the final battle. oh and the utter stupidity of those rubber-masked power rangers rejects cant be forgotten either (belive me ive tried).
  3. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I have watched Anakin and Jar Jar during the final battle.

    Why is that any worse than C-3PO making comedic comments that broke the serious tension in the Carbon Freezing scene or when they search for Han in Cloud City?
  4. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    i dont think youll have to strain to see the difference. heres a hint: comic relief has nothing to do with it.
  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I consider Anakin and Jar Jar's antics comic relief. They broke the tension. I consider it all to be on the same level.
  6. ksid Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    To answer the question of this topic:

    Yes, in my opinion, it would've been received more favourably.




    p.s. ST frankly C-3PO making comedic comments in cloud city was in good taste. "oh they've frozen him in carbonite..." not this "I'm beside myself" cheap stuff. IMO. But, I don't want to be comparing the OT to the PT for this thread anyway.
  7. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    You're telling me him yelling: Yes, please wait, I'm not ready to die?

    &

    If only you had attached my legs I wouldn't be in this ridiculous position

    Didn't feel out of place with the seriousness of the scene?
  8. Vaders_leash Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    As much as I would like to reply, "Yes," I have to side with Lucas. The plot of episode I was necessary because he had to set everything up, including Anakin's slave life and relationship with his mother, being yanked away from her and establish the fact that he started training so late.

    How are you going to explain all of this in AOTC without slowing down AOTC's plot. It would be a lot like the cram job of ROTJ.
  9. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    why did Anakin have to be a slave? why did we have to meet his mother? why did he have to be generic little kid?

    none of these choices are inherently wrong, but they sure as hell werent absolutely necessary. Anakin's story was supposed to parallel Luke's story (GL has said this more than once, tho not lately [and from a dramatic standpoint he was absolutely right]) and we certainly didnt need to see Luke as a little boy to understand where he was coming from. good writing and acting allows us to understand a character without knowing his life story.

    also the fact that GL was smart enuf to tap into various mythic and literary archetypes in ANH allowed the audience to say "okay, yeah, we know what makes this guy tick" within a few minutes of watching him.

    the idea that we HAD to see Anakin as a bland little kid is so obviously wrong that i feel dumb even pointing it out.

    all stories (except creation myths like Genesis) NECESSARILY must begin somewhere in the middle.
  10. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    If we started off in AOTC with Anakin being an arrogant teenager, would you give a damn about the character of Anakin?
  11. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    i gave a damn about Luke. come on ST i want to give you some credit here, but you have to make some better arguments.

    The vast majority of movies (good and bad) introduce characters at some mid-point in their lives. INCLUDING STAR WARS!!

    what does seeing a character as a little boy have to do with caring about him?

    not incidentally, if Ani had been accidentally decapitated by jar-jar midway thru TPM many of us would have laughed our asses off (especially if jar jar fell off a very high cliff right after).

    but thats sort of a separate point i guess. anyway, try to work on your arguments ST.
  12. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I didn't view Luke as arrogant. I viewed him as a "whiny" type of character. It's hard to explain, but he didn't seem arrogant to me. He didn't seem really sure of himself like Anakin does.

    And I didn't refer to caring about Anakin in TPM because he was a boy. In TPM, Anakin is a sweet kid. He could have been a sweet 16 year old. It doesn't matter. I was referring to the character of Anakin in TPM, not his age. In TPM he did his best to help out Qui-Gon, Padme, Jar Jar, and R2. And in return, he did not expect a thing back. He simply wished to help. That right there makes me care for the character of Anakin. If we had started with Anakin in AOTC, his overall attitude wouldn't attract too many people to favor the character I think.

    but thats sort of a separate point i guess. anyway, try to work on your arguments ST

    I will when I begin to have trouble ;) :D

  13. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    not for u to decide ST.

    and we were discussing the need to show Ani as a little boy, not the particulars of his character.

    focus, my young Padawan.
  14. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    not for u to decide ST

    :confused:

    My argument in this case wasn't about Anakin's age. It was about his character in TPM. That's my point.
  15. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    just curious here. youre a kid right? (not attacking you or anything)

    oh, and heres your previous post:

    If we started off in AOTC with Anakin being an arrogant teenager, would you give a damn about the character of Anakin?

    now do u remember? and btw his being arrogant certainly does not preclude an audience from sympathising or relating to a character (remember Han Solo? brash, arrogant, swaggering, and probably the most beloved of all the main characters. and there are infinite examples of likeable, relateable, arrogant characters in other movies.)
  16. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
  17. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    oh ok, just didnt want to give u hard time if u were just a 10 year old kid. check out my edit above btw.
  18. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Okay :D

    EDIT: Good point about Han, but Han was more of a "fun" character. He, along with Chewbacca, seemed like the "mature" comedy relief in the movie. R2 and 3PO were more of the "silly" comedy relief.

    Anakin's more of a serious character. He gets some good one-liners ("Don't worry, I've given up on trying to argue with you" :D), but throughout most of the movie his character was rather serious.

    I guess it has to deal with the different levels. Arrogance and comedy are a more happy mix than arrogance and seriousness. I personally find a wise cracking pilot to be more "fun" than a Tusken killer :D
  19. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    instead of qualifying MY responses and making declarative statements about arrogance and comedy vs seriuosness or whatever (and btw im pretty sure GL intended for us to sympathize with and like the older Anakin since hes in 2 of 3 movies. and by what ive read on these boards anyway, some people do) just address why it was VITAL that we spend an entire movie with Anakin as a generic little boy. thats all i was wondering.
  20. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    just address why it was VITAL that we spend an entire movie with Anakin as a generic little boy

    That is not my point, as I have said. Anakin could have been 16, 18, or 54 in TPM. If his "sweet" side was still evident there, that's all I'm talking about.
  21. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    well some people (geeky young girls im guessing) thought he was pretty sweet in AOTC. most people arent sitting there watching AOTC thinking "gee this guy's an arrogant jerk, i wish someone would cut his...oh, wait a minute, he was such a good little boy in that last movie, maybe hes not all bad!!" you did i guess, but thats you.

    Everyone was a cute little kid once(even Hitler, according to some biographies). The most vicious pit bulls start off as cute little puppies. Nature makes them that way so their mothers dont eat them (or shake the crap out of them).

    We didnt need an entire movie to convice us that Anakin Skywalker didnt start life as the epitome of evil in the galaxy. What TPM depicted in regards to Anakin WENT WITHOUT SAYING. (doubly so for those of us who have seen the OT and heard Obi telling Luke what great guy his dad was)

    this is not a subtle point im making here ST
  22. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The reason Anakin is a little boy in TPM is so his journey would be different from Luke's, to make his seperation from his mother more traumatic, to show what would change a selfless young samaritain into a selfish, power-hungry brat, and to show why one's inability to let go of their loved ones would be their undoing (which happens when Anakin slaughtered an entire village of Sandpeople after his mother died in AOTC).

    The plot angle wouldn't have worked if Anakin was already older because he would have the strength to move on like Luke has.

    Anakin was made a slave to explain why he didn't have the courage to make choices for himself, why he didn't have a clue what it's like to be free, why he feels like he's still being held on a leash even though he's a Jedi, and why he wouldn't turn against the Emperor until the very end of ROTJ.

    We had to meet his mother to know how much she meant to him and what effect she had in Anakin's path to the darkside.
  23. Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
  24. The Butler Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    This point's been made more eloquently before (by other posters):

    Without an episode showing the galaxy mostly at peace and the Jedi confident and relaxed instead of confused and overworked, we won't understand how far the Republic has fallen by AOTC. TPM was as close to the Golden Age as we ever got.
  25. SobiWan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 2
    A lot of very good points made... on both sides.

    It is my opinion that the division of classes (gushers, bashers) in peoples minds is uneccesarily complicating matters. Think of it as the Seperatists vs the Republic: both are pawns. Who gains from this?

    Back stories are an interesting thing because they can be portrayed 2 ways: by actually visiting them (Anakin) or talk about/be talked to about them (Luke). Some characters don't even need a backstory (ie Senator Palpatine, Qui-Gon).

    With that in mind, what are the key issues Lucas is trying to get across with Anakin? Everyone knows the story, but lets recap everything:

    • was concieved by the Force

    • was a selfless boy; did many things for others with no thought of return

    • loved his mother, whom he lived with on Tatooine, although with severe attachment

    • is accustomed to taking orders due to being a slave as a boy

    • is a good mechanic; he can "fix" things

    • is highly "charged" with midiclorains, has great Force ability

    • is an exceptional pilot due to his force ability

    • was believed to be "The Chosen One" by Obi-Wan's master, Qui-Gon

    • acted selflessly towards Qui-Gon when he offered and won a pod race on Tatooine for Qui-Gon (which got him the cash to buy parts for his broken ship to while stranded)

    • was wanted by Qui-Gon's to be his pupil, even against the will of the council

    • was given to Qui-Gon by his mother at age 9, to help Anakin realize a better life

    • was sworn to be trained by Obi-Wan from Qui-Gon's death wish


    What if all of these points were mentioned in conversation and acts in EP1 when Anakin was a teen under Obi-Wan's tutalage? If you want to imagine how it would turn out, just merge those story points into conversation with the backdrop from TPM:

    • the inefficient and corrupt Senate

    • the bogus Naboo war (both sides played by Palpatine as Sidious)

    • the Queen's receptiveness to Palpatine's suggestion to vote the Chancellor out to make room for a decisive leader

    • the introduction of the extinct Sith


    The new EP1 could focus on other points merely touched on, such as Anakin's belief of Obi-Wan's jealousy and breaking away from Obi-Wan in a painful way. It would be typical and believable teenager behavior.

    There would be no reason for puppy love "I've always loved you... even when you were 9" scenes. Anakin has enough motivation for attaching to Padme; she is physically, emotionally and socially strong. What teenage boy turning man with raging hormones wouldn't want that?

    EP2 would resume as usual, focusing on Anakin winning Padme's heart until she admits not to waste another moment because they may be dead any day in the war... even if they are the wrong reasons for loving or marrying someone.

    Just my 2 cents...
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