PT If Dooku had killed Anakin, what was Sidious's backup plan?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by RKORadio, Dec 19, 2012.

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  1. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    Well, I'd say Anakin's defeat of Dooku in ROTS was almost entirely about power and speed, and not technique. In fact, Anakin's technique in the duel is often telegraphed, sloppy, and overextended. Several times he just rears back and swings as hard as he can, completely disregarding technique. Anakin knocks Dooku off-balance with pure power more than once. It's not "technique" when you easily block my telegraphed attack, but my attack is so powerful it batters you anyway.

    I'd say Anakin's advantage is athleticism, powered by the Force.

    I don't think it was impossible for Dooku to beat Anakin as Django Fett said, but once Anakin gets mad and draws on the dark side fully, he just takes it to Dooku and Dooku was struggling terribly just to fend him off. I don't think Anakin was leagues ahead of Dooku, but it was clear that Anakin had surpassed him in power.
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  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right. Note that in their first fight, Dooku looks a bit winded after he beats Anakin. He was much more than he had anticipated. That's why in their subsequent duels as we saw, Dooku had to rely on other factors than straight up fighting him. When they had their last bout, Palpatine finally explained what he wanted out of the boy to him. Hence it was a straight up fight.
  3. Django Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I refer to Palpatine's conversation with Grevious in ROTS which went something like this...

    "The loss of Count Dooku was unfortunate but i will soon have a new apprentice far younger.....and more powerfull!"

    If Palpatine thinks Anakin is more powerfull than Dooku then thats good enough for me.
  4. Darth_Magus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2002
    star 2
    Django,

    Notice I said show more power, not someone talking about it. Which happens far too much in the prequels.
  5. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    As a master planner, it's not far-fetched that Palpatine predicted this all very closely. Dooku could have been present any time previously, but Palpatine was close with Anakin and likely monitored his growth as a Jedi. Only when he believed Anakin was ready did things fall into place at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith. Each of the prequels are phases in Palpatine's grand scheme to rise to power. If anything, you can see the kind of patience he took in the reemergence of the Sith, and how he left little to chance.
  6. 00Beast Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2014
    I've never bothered to think about this before, but wow.....either this is one giant plot hole or a stroke of hidden genius on Palpatine's part.
    I assume that Palpatine just knew that Anakin would eliminate Count Dooku based on some "feeling" given to him via The Force. I don't see Palpatine as the kind of Sith mastermind to just leave his well-laid plans up to pure chance- he knew that Dooku was on his way out.
  7. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Well it has been established that Darth Sidious has a very keen Force Foresight and has visions that are extremely accurate.
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  8. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Palps knew Ani would defeat Dooku because of his skill & power, but most importantly he was fueled with REVENGE. It was a no-brainer for him.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Aug 13, 2014
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The whole kidnapping plot was one giant trap...for Dooku.
  10. TX-20 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 3
    Tyranus stands over the headless body of Anakin Skywalker
    Darth Tyranus: "It is done."
    Darth Sidious: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, er, I mean, Good. Gooooooooooooooooood."
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  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It's not a plot hole whatsoever. Palpatine was in a win-win situation. He knew the potential of Anakin, but if Dooku had defeated him then he would have proven himself (again?) as a worthy apprentice to Sidious.
    TX-20 likes this.
  12. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
    I think palpatine wanted Anakin to do it to make Anakin feel hopeless and give himself fully to the dark side as he lied about Anakin killing Padme and I agree with luthiers that dooku a would have been kept around till a suitable replacement was found.


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  13. Meyerm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 1
    According to the wiki, Sidious told Dooku that the plan was to kill Obi Wan and turn Anakin to the dark side as another dark acolyte who would then arrest Dooku so he could defect and emerge later at the Emperor's side. As such, Dooku wouldn't try to kill Anakin, so I think the better question would be to ask what would happen if Anakin didn't overpower Dooku as Sidious predicted. Would it be possible for Sidious to use the force to influence the fight without either noticing? Anakin turning then would severely cripple Palpatine's plans. He might have still found a way to deal with Dooku (executed by clones after order 66?) but Anakin turning to the dark side then couldn't be maneuvered around.
    zompusbite likes this.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup - that comes from both Labyrinth of Evil and the ROTS novel.
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  15. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    If Dooku had by some miracle killed Anakin, he would have proved himself to be worthy of remaining Sidious's apprentice. At that point, Palpatine would probably have Dooku kill Obi-Wan and then return the Chancellor to Coruscant and fake ignorance at the Separatist's crimes.

    As part of his defection Dooku would reveal the location of General Grievous and the Separatist leaders. With Obi-Wan dead Mace Windu goes to Utapau while Yoda goes to Kashyyyk.

    Then the Jedi go to force Palpatine to surrender his emergency power only to be faced by Count Dooku who heroically protects the Chancellor from the traitorous Jedi who allegedly try to kill the defenceless Chancellor.

    Dooku leads the 501st into the Temple, Mace and Yoda survive Order 66 and double team Palpatine while Dooku is busy killing Gunray and the others on Mustafar.

    Whether Mace and Yoda win is unknown, but I'd say their chances are pretty good. Of course Palpatine may just kill them both, so it's not a guarantee. But that's basically what would happen if Dooku killed Anakin.
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  16. Marco1907 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 2
    I think Palpatine meant Anakin's potential there, as he said to Yoda ''Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.'' Yet he failed to defeat Obi-Wan.

    I believe RotS Anakin was at the same level with Obi-Wan, Dooku could still defeat him via force powers just like he did to Obi-Wan, yet that previous talk between Palpatine & Dooku (@darth-sinister's quote in page 2) stopped him for using his force powers and using his killing intend on Anakin, then Anakin gained advantage on Dooku's old age and weakness to strong physical & kinetic attacks.

    I think Dooku was still more powerful than Anakin by RotS.

    credit to @dart-sinister ;

    Because of this part, Dooku would never kill Anakin, at worst he would cut his mechanic hand or other hand.
    Last edited by Marco1907, Aug 28, 2014
  17. Django Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    @Marco1907

    GL states in the DVD commentary that Obi-Wan and Anakin are equal but Obi-Wan has the edge because of Anakin's over confidence and his emotional hang ups. I think Anakin believes Obi-Wan taught Anakin everything Anakin knew but not all Obi-Wan knew, so there could've been doubt in Anakin's mind whether he could defeat Obi-Wan, which was present when they fought on DS1 but Anakin as he'd done earlier uses his arrogance to overcome this.
  18. zompusbite Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2014
    From the novel Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader : " As some Jedi had feared from the start, Anakin had been ripe for conversion when Qui-Gon Jinn had first brought him to the Temple, and for well over a decade all of Sidious's plans for the boy had unfolded without incident. But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. The failure to defeat his former Master had worked to prolong that vulnerability.

    Sidious recalled the desperate return trip to Coruscant; recalled using all his powers, and all the potions and devices contained in his medkit, to minister to Anakin's hopelessly blistered body and truncated limbs.

    He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?

    How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

    None would be found.

    Sidious would have had to discover a way to compel midichlorians to do his bidding, and bring into being one as powerful as Anakin. As it was, Sidious and a host of medical droids had merely restored Anakin to life, which–while no small feat–was a far cry from returning someone from death. For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been pursued by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful at discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced. Now that the galaxy was his to rule, there was nothing to prevent Sidious, too, from unlocking that mystery.

    Then he and his crippled apprentice might hold sway over the galaxy for ten thousand years, and live eternally.

    If they didn't kill each other first.

    In large part because Padme Amidala had died.

    Sidious had deliberately brought her and Anakin together three years earlier, both to rid the Senate of her vote against the Military Creation Act and to put temptation in Anakin's path. Following the murder of Anakin's mother, Anakin had secretly married Padme. When he had learned of the marriage, Sidious knew for certain that Anakin's pathological attachment to her would eventually supply the means for completing his conversion to the dark side.

    Anakin's fears for her, in actuality and in visions–and especially after Padme had become pregnant–had been heightened by keeping him far from her. Then it simply had been a matter of unmasking the Jedi for the hypocrites that they were, sacrificing Dooku to Anakin's rage, and promising Anakin that Padme could be saved from death ...

    The latter, an exaggeration necessary for Anakin's turn from what the Jedi called right thinking; for opening his eyes to his true calling. But such was the way of the Force. It provided opportunities, and one needed only to be ready to seize them.

    Not for the first time Sidious wondered what might have happened had Anakin not killed Padme on Mustafar. For all she loved him, she never would have understood or forgiven Anakin's action at the Jedi Temple. In fact, that was one of the reasons Sidious had sent him there. Clone troopers could have dealt with the instructors and younglings, but Anakin's presence was essential in order to cement his allegiance to the Sith, and, more important, to seal Padme's fate. Even if she had survived Mustafar, their love would have died–Padme might even have lost the will to live–and their child would have become Sidious's and Vader's to raise.

    Might that child have been the first member of a new Sith order of thousands or millions? Hardly. The idea of a Sith order was a corruption of the intent of the ancient Dark Lords. Fortunately, Darth Bane had understood that, and had insisted that only in rare instances should there exist more than two lords, Master and apprentice, at any given time.

    But two were necessary for the perpetuation of the Sith order.

    And so it fell to Sidious to complete Vader's convalescence.

    As Emperor Palpatine, he had no need to reveal his Sith training and mastery to anyone, and for the moment Vader was his crimson blade. Let the galaxy think what it would of Vader: fallen Jedi, surfaced Sith, political enforcer ... It scarcely mattered, since fear would ultimately bring and keep everyone in line.

    Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side. Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

    Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

    In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

    Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

    Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

    Even at Sidious's own peril ...

    Thank you for reading me
    mes520 likes this.
  19. The Philosophical Owl Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2014
    star 1
    If Dooku had defeated Anakin he would have proven himself superior and would have remained Palpatines apprentice
  20. Meyerm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 1
    The plan Dooku was told was to kill Obi wan and turn Anakin to the dark side so he could take Dooku into custody, who would then emerge, along with Anakin, alongside Palpatine during Order 66 in defense of Palpatine. Dooku would then become the executioner and right hand man of Palpatine as the emperor, while Anakin would serve as puppet ruler of a dark jedi alternative to the jedi order. This might have worked out, but I think Sidious's ultimate plan involved Vader being his apprentice and possible successor. He probably had a backup plan to remove Dooku and take Anakin as his apprentice after the Empire's formation.
  21. zompusbite Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2014
    No more assuming, more proof. And this is the role of the EU : to provide explanations to questions and mysteries not revealed in the movies. After all, it is easier to describe things in a novel than a movie. This is why GL, with the PT, is devoted exclusively to carry out the main plot (the controversial discovery of Anakin, his difficult training, and his fall to the dark side), leaving secondary frames to the expert hands of Del Rey novelists and Dark Horse comic book artists.
  22. The Son of Dathomir Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2014
    I think immediately after Anakin and Obi-Wan died Palpatine would execute order 66 and most of the jedi would be killed. I'd assume that a few jedi would survive like Yoda, Mace Windu, Shak Ti, and maybe Kit Fisto. (or substitute Ti and Fisto for other jedi maybe Plo Koon, Ki Adi Mundi, or Luminara)

    Then there would be an awesome fight between Sidious and Dooku and Yoda, Windu, Shak Ti, and Fisto. I think they could make it so Yoda and Mace fought Sidious while Ti and Fisto would fight Dooku. I think Dooku would kill Ti and Fisto, but Yoda and Mace would have Sidious at a vulnerable position. And just as they are about to kill them a group of clone troopers come and shoot at the Jedi and they are forced to retreat. But Yoda after receiving an injury in his fight against Sidious is slow to walk so Mace sacrifices himself to save Yoda but dies in the process of being shot down by clones. However Dooku has suffered serious injuries from the Jedi and instead of Palpatine risking his identity he executes Dooku. Then he pretends that he was attacked by the Jedi and Dooku, gaining support of the senate.

    After most of the Jedi have been killed, Sidious orders the bounty hunter Boba Fett and the cyborg Grievous to find and kidnap Padme so he can have control of the force sensitive children. Meanwhile Yoda takes Padme and Organa to Tatooine so the children can have birth away from the emperor. After Padme delivers the babies Organa takes Leia and Luke is given to C3PO and R2 to give to Owen and Beru Lars. However shortly after giving birth Padme and Yoda encounter Grievous and Boba Fett. Yoda still injured, fights bravely and destroys Grievous, but Boba Fett gets a fatal shot on Padme. Boba Fett is then hit from behind by the Wookie Chewbaca. Boba Fett flees to hyperdrive leaving Yoda and Chewbaca with a dying Padme. As Padme takes her last breath she tells Yoda that she sees her children one day restoring balance to the force and the republic.

    Afterwards Yoda goes into exile in Dagobah and Chewy stays around Mos Eisley.

    However when Leia becomes older she is trained to be a rebel by her father. When Luke becomes older he is met by a force ghost. His Father, who tells him about the ways of the Jedi and how he must restore balance to the force by defeating the emperor...
    Last edited by The Son of Dathomir, Sep 5, 2014
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  23. The Philosophical Owl Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2014
    star 1

    That sounds like an epic fan-fiction...
  24. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Simple as that. The truth is (and what makes this thread irrelevant) that Palpatine had been watching Anakin, AND training Dooku for a decade at this point. No other person knew both of them so intmately. If anyone truly knew what the outcome of the duel was going to be, it was him. He no longer needed Dooku, who was just as old as he was and was declining rather than becoming stronger, and he knew Anakin had ripened and would be the victor.
  25. Meyerm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 1
    Who would be Palpatine's new apprentice then?
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