Speculation If George said to you.."Plagueis is the Villian, make the Plot.."

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Voss, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. Voss Jedi Master

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    Nov 1, 2012
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    What would you do with Plagueis?

    Redundant thread
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Nov 4, 2012
  2. EviL_eLF Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    I say I'd rather not.
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  3. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

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    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2
    Typically when you write the script for a movie you get a paycheck.....
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  4. Voss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    I just kept hearing all the Plagueis love, and wondered if I could be convinced.
  5. EviL_eLF Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    I still would say I'd rather not as I don't want Plagueis as the villain. If you don't believe in what you are writing, it will turn out horribly bad.
    Last edited by EviL_eLF, Nov 3, 2012
  6. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

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  7. Tibanna Gas Mine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    The Plagueis stuff was just hashed together so quickly by Lucas with no one around him to challenge his ideas. I try not to even acknowledge it as part of the official story line. Same with the Boba Fett PT stuff. Such poor decision making and so questionable. Just because he was such a popular character in the OT let's bring him back as a kid in the PT to make our mainstream audience happy! Please. Lucas was always trying to just bring people back because it was easier for him, just a downright easier way out than being new and creative where it counts in the writing. It was such a 12 year old-ish thing to do for like a 7th grade english class. But hey, that's who he was banking on to see the PT movies to make the merchandise money, so who am I to try and articulate his incentives? (Who am I? I'm someone who made a strong connection with the OT because it felt real and genuine, and when it comes to how I felt about the PT, I was more disappointed than angry, and we know which feels worse.) Hope, Empire, and most of Jedi were actual works of art and had a storytelling sense that felt real. PT seemed more like "hmm, what can I do here? OK, I'll do this.." with just only choosing the first thing that came to his mind and without even reflecting on if it was a great idea or not.
    Ugh! I truly apologize for being that guy right now.
    Last edited by Tibanna Gas Mine, Nov 3, 2012
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  8. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I didn't have a problem with the "Tale of Darth Plagueis the Wise" to help turn Anakin. But it was just a plot device. And then his backstory was covered in a novel, but now some want to see him turn into the uber villain and it just seems like that came out of nowhere from what started as a tale that highlighted how this guy was not the smartest Sith and made the mistake of sharing his power and died an inglorious death when he made himself expendable.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 3, 2012
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  9. Darthsuggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2003
    star 4
    I loved the Plagueis the Wise tragedy but it's only interesting to me because as an audience member I am getting to see how amused with himself Palps is. It was an awesome moment in the film but it should stay a story told by Palpatine and nothing more.
  10. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Darth Plagueis was a bad*** villain, you'd have to be to have trained Darth Sidious. I have been one who threw him out there as a villain for the ST, but I don't know how it would work given that the book 'Darth Plagueis' pretty much covered his story--he's dead. All that has changed in the Star Wars galaxy between 32 BBY and sometime beyond 30 ABY, on Muunilinst especially, I don't know how he could have remained hidden. Say he did survive, and remained hidden, I can't figure out a reason for him to suddenly just randomly come out from hiding at this specific time. I do wonder about the treasure trove of Sith lore at his family estate on the island of Aborah on Muunilinst and his trusty droid assistant 11-4D both containing information which could be helpful to someone wishing to become a Sith.
  11. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Yes, but it is better to introduce at least a villain who was mentioned in the past, rather than some "secret" apprentice of Darth Vader or some other Darth/fallen Jedi we never saw or heard about before.

    Darth Plagueis as a main villain would give sort of a continuity to the Sith Lords. We had Palpatine with Maul, then with Dooku, then Vader. All of them fought, all of them died, while Plagueis was on some remote planet meditating (Korriban?) waiting for his overconfident apprentice to die so he can reclaim his "throne" as THE Sith Lord.
    By having the notion that Plagueis played dead and stayed hidden for so many years would be in contrast with Yoda's exile. It would make him a lot a lot more cunning and wise.
    What if Plagueis really was the one orchestrating everything, planning to throw the Galaxy into chaos so that he, one day, could gain more power? That he used the mi..di...chlorians to create Anakin, the "chosen one" - the perfect sleeper assassin for taking his revenge on Palpatine, who tried to kill him.
    If he was Darth Plagueis "the wise", he would certainly have a lot of patience. He would just sit around while others are unknowingly fulfilling his decades-long orchestrated plans.
    And now, with Palpatine killed by his creation (Anakin)/the son of his creation (Luke), it is time to reclaim his rightful place as one of the most powerful (and perhaps only) Sith Lords in the Galaxy. Killing Skywalker would be the next logical step.

    Now, perhaps I am digging too deep into this and I admit that chances are that what I just said is just speculation.
    But hey, it's an early Sunday morning and between a cup of tea and a sandwich I've got nothing better to do [face_coffee]
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 4, 2012
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  12. Norminator Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2009
    star 1
    I applaud you for being that guy.
    This is the problem I have with the EU as well. Nothing original or creative, just a rehash of old characters and ideas. There are so many gods in the EU machine that it isn't even funny.
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  13. EviL_eLF Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    No, it's better to introduce a completely NEW villain with no relation to any previous villain in the previous films. Fresh ideas for a fresh trilogy!
  14. moxlox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    This is exactly how I think of it through the revelations in ROTS and then now speculating how you could re-incorporate him. Would be good.

    It's not explicitly said, but is arguably implied that Palpatine was Plagueis' apprentice, and Plagueis cold have had some influence in Anakin's creation. That theatre scene is one of my favourite bits of ROTS
  15. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I'd say, "HA! You really don't care about the books, do you? How much you gonna give me a week, boss?"
  16. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    The Star Wars saga has always been about legacies. Episodes were not just Movie #1, Movie #2 and so on, but they linked together and formed a credible story, with character growths and decays, story arcs. That is one of the reasons why Star Wars spawned such a large universe - each episode didn't introduce the "villain of the week", but rather expanded on the relationships previously established.
    While it is almost certain that we're going to see a Skywalker (or more) in the new trilogy, why can't the villains have their own legacy?
    What if Darth Vader was not Luke's father? Would the emotional impact have been the same? Would have people been so hyped about the PT, before it came out? I doubt it.

    Allow me to babble a bit more on the subject:
    If Anakin was indeed created by Plagueis, then that would make him something of a grandfather to Luke; part of the same legacy. Not directly, but such a thing would have a stronger emotional impact than a nameless villain who wants to do bad things for reasons.
    The story would continue to be about the Skywalker legacy, but with a twist. It would give a larger than life character even more complexity.
    Also, in order for the audience to get involved (aka care about the plot), you must present the main character as being emotionally involved himself. If you just introduce <Evil Guy>, then nothing other than the sense of duty would involve the characters we know into the plot. And that alone is not sufficient to be interesting and the new trilogy will be there just to satisfy people's addiction to lightsabers, the Force and Wookies.
    The Anakin story arc can be presented as part of a larger plot, behind which is the mysterious, presumably dead, Darth Plagueis, the one who actually cheated death.
    Continuity between the trilogies can be maintained.

    If the producers decide to throw all that potential down the drain, then we could as well have Star Wars: <Insert random title here> and not even call it Episode 7 if it is going to be so distant from the previous movies.
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  17. EviL_eLF Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    Star Wars has been about legacies because that is how Lucas wrote Anakin's fall/redemption.

    That doesn't mean Lukes kids have to deal with Sidious' father so to speak. It's backwards thinking IMO.

    Nobody is asking for a villain of the week, we're asking for the villain of the next generation!
    Last edited by EviL_eLF, Nov 4, 2012
  18. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    True, but a random villain who had little to no involvement (emotional or otherwise) in the previous 6 movies (that's around 40 years of in-universe time) wouldn't carry the same weight in the overall plot, like I described in my previous post.
    It would be just as bad as having Ep7 take place 1000 years after - the more departed from the first 6 movies, the less reasons to call it Episode 7.

    Why can't Plagueis be a villain of "the next generation"? Since we've never seen him or heard anything about him other than the face that he presumably created Anakin, that Sidious was presumably his apprentice and that he was presumably killed by him. Oh, and that he could do things with the Force that no one else could.
    Plagueis hasn't been explored too much and there are almost no hints at his appearance or personality. There is room for in-depth characterization in the next trilogy. Therefore, the writers will be free to write him in any way they want.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 4, 2012
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  19. Healer_Leona Manager Emeritus

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    Jul 7, 2000
    star 9
    I would have to say "Who?"
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  20. EviL_eLF Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    Random villain created the greatness of Vader and the Emperor over time... the same can happen with new villain. Especially if new villain is responsible for the demise of Luke Skywalker!
    Last edited by EviL_eLF, Nov 4, 2012
  21. Norminator Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2009
    star 1
    Bingo. They have a chance to make the Darth Vader of this/the next generation here. He or she may be on covers, lunch boxes, key rings, toasters, t-shirts and all over pop culture for the next 40 years. Better make him iconic, a real badass that doesn't need to lean on anyone. Vader didn't have a legacy to lean on in episode IV, he was this huge mysterious, larger than life ultimate villain. But he didn't need an introduction ala "you thought the last guy was evil? Look at THIS ONE! He's somebody's father! And he breathes funny!"
    He steps through the smoke, and thanks to camera angles and music you know that this is a serious threat.
    That's the level they should shoot for.
    We need to see what a new villain is willing to do to get what he wants, not how "he is related to someone else, so I guess he's a bad guy?"

    Anyway, enough of my ramblings. This is what happens when you bring the phone to the bathroom.
  22. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    That's because they were the first. It all had to start from somewhere. It would have been impossible to release the first Star Wars movie with the audience already knowing everything about Vader and Palpatine.
    But now we're after two trilogies of backstory, character interaction and plot development. The only logical course of action is to build on what has already been established.
    Because again, if they don't, then why add "Episode 7" to the title?

    And there's another...theme (shall I call it?) in the movies.
    So Plagueis trains Palpatine and presumably creates Anakin out of thin air. Dooku was Yoda's apprentice. Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice. Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan. Palpatine trained Darth Maul. Then Dooku became Palpatine's apprentice. Dooku trained Greivous. Then Anakin became Palpatine's new apprentice. And finally Luke becomes Obi-Wan's apprentice.
    It all seems like legacy here. Not a family, but a legacy of Jedi and Sith, all related to each other. It would be kind of strange (to say the least) if the next trilogy would ignore the themes set in the previous two trilogies.
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  23. Deejo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 1
    While I don't agree with it, its entirely possible Sideous didn't die. He might have found a way to cheat death somehow, a feat he mocks Plagueis for not having in Ep 3 ("could save others from dying but not himself"). Sideous could have used those 20 odd years after Ep.3 pillaging the galaxies knowledge searching and learning the answer to cheating death.

    Again, I don't want this to happen but it would be pretty easily explained if it did.

    Not sure if they would go for the explanation in the Zahn Trilogy (from memory doesn't his consciousness transfer to a clone in a big facility somewhere?) or have some other way to sell it.

    It would be a way to get Ian McDiarmid back, who was the best thing about all the other movies IMO.

    I watched Ep 3 again today and I think its pretty clear that Plagueis is considered dead, at least by Sideous.
    Last edited by Deejo, Nov 4, 2012
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