Saga If introducing someone new to SW. Which trilogy would you have them watch first?

Eh, only to a point. In my experience, those who watch the PT first always (and I mean ALWAYS) need things explained to them. Even simple things like the Force and the Sith.

 

The Force is certainly explained in TPM and the Sith are obviously the enemies of the Jedi. how many times have you done it?

 

Where is the Force explained? No, the stupid midichlorian scene doesn't count. Where is it explained as concisely as is in Star Wars (1977) by Kenobi? The Sith are enemies, but we know next to NOTHING about them. Why do they hate the Jedi? Where do they come from? Why do they want revenge? What do they believe in vs the Jedi? Granted, ROTS does a little to help these along, but that's six hours into the Saga. Way too late!

 

I watched Phantom Menace as my first Star Wars film and I never had any trouble understanding the Force. Now, granted, there's no one specific speech concerning the Force, but the film -- through the characters' words and actions -- does a very good job of describing it to us.

For example, early on, the Jedi are established as guardians of peace and justice in the crawl and their prowess as warriors is clearly demonstrated in the opening struggle with the Trade Federation.

Throughout the film, the Jedi's reputation precedes them -- Nute Gunray's lackey is clearly afraid of them and Anakin himself says (rather ironically) that no one can kill a Jedi.

The scene with Jar Jar in the bongo is an example of how the Jedi allow this mysterious Force to guide their actions. It's some form of power they have faith in to not lead them astray. Through the Force, Jedi can sense disturbances. Later on, with Watto, the notion of mind tricks is established. Qui-Gon and Shmi discuss how Anakin has such quick reflexes because he can see things before they happen -- a Jedi trait. We learn that all life is connected and can be in tune with the Force through midichlorians.

Really, the only difference with TPM's presentation of the Force and ANH is that the words "energy field" are never used. But the concept of life being united by a common thread that one can both manipulate and be manipulated by is very beautifully presented in TPM.

As for the Sith -- we know that they want revenge against the Jedi. And, honestly, that's enough for me. Watching the mystery unfold is half of the fun!

 

Eh, not really. All your descriptions from TPM tell us is that the Force is what gives the Jedi their power, which it's so much more than that in the OT. Midichlorian nonsense aside, TPM fails to convey that the Force flows through ALL living things and is literally everywhere and can influence anything even if just a little. The PT gives the impression that the Force is only something that is relevant to those with a higher power level. Congrats, GL. Star Wars now works with the same logic as DBZ!

As for the Sith, maybe them just being bad guys who hate the Jedi is good enough for YOU. I on the other hand prefer a tad more substance and elaboration so that I actually give a crap. Also, there's no mystery that's unfolding before you, just sloppy story telling.

Aren't you the guy who insists he didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious until ROTS and even then only halfway? LOL, yeah . . .

 

Midichlorians not being nonsense aside , I don't think it is necessary to be told that the Force flows thought all living things. Do we need the information to understand the plot? It's not even necessary to understand the OT because noone aside Jedi and Sith uses the Force.
A also think that TPM does a nice job of explaining the Force via "show, don't tell". I always liked that TPM and ANH used different approaches in that regard. TPM portrays execution and gives a little scientific bachground, ANH provides a bit of spiritual view on the Force.

Well, we are told that the Sith have been extinct for a millenium. Darth Maul wants revenge. So I think it's legit so assume that the Jedi wiped them out and that's a history between them. The Empire doesn't have more "elaborate" reasons to hate the Rebellion, imo.

 

It's not what is said in each movie about the force, the problem is it is explained twice and goes to my point that Lucas would have written it differently in Episode I & IV if he were writing a linear story 1-6. It would be like watching the Godfather Part 1, and Michael introduces his whole family to Kay, and then at the beginning of Godfather 2 he would introduce all of the family AGAIN to Kay! The #1 thing you don't do as a writer in TV, Movies and Books is repeat something that was already talked about before, hence why editing plays a key part in movies and TV, because you can show something happening without ACTUALLY showing it on screen. It happens all the time, as a character tells something he already told to another character, and they edit to another scene and then go back as the character is at the end of his conversation, simply because the audience has heard it before.

My whole point all along is if Lucas was writing something linear 1-6, he would have had a big talk about the force in Episode I, simply because he is explaining to the viewer the first time, and then you would never had the SAME conversation later in the movie.

 

It is explained as the power that the Jedi and the Sith use. That they can levitate objects, use it to block blaster bolts, sense things about other people and see things before others can. In ANH, it isn't explained either other than an energy field.

Yeah, it's called a mystery.

You're argument falls apart because Obi-wan explains things to Luke, someone who is the outsider in ANH. He wasn't around for what came before. Anakin is the outsider in TPM as he has very little knowledge of the Jedi Order and it is Qui-gon who has to explain things to him. It would be more along the lines of Michael introducing his family to Vincent in the third film.

 

I mean, you can hypothesize that it might not work, but you don't know. Considering TPM actually was the first Star Wars movie I saw, I can give first-hand evidence.

Umm…the film flat out states that midichlorians reside in all living cells and are the connection to the Force. That pretty much exactly states that the Force flows through all living things -- unless one is ignorant of the fact that all life is composed of cells.

Oh! Did you not know that? Is that why you were confused by TPM's explanation of the Force? Well, I hope matters have been clarified now at least.

Likewise, Qui-Gon rather clearly explains that the Force can influence us -- that it is with the quieting of the mind that one can become aware of the Force.

And considering midichlorians are essential for life, TPM basically confirms that if you are alive, you have a connection to the Force.

Saying that midichlorians are "power levels" is asinine -- that's like saying mitochondria are "power levels." They serve a specific function to the cell and they are essential to eukaryotic life as we know it, but there's a lot more factors that go into determining how strong you are (for example) than how many mitochondria you have.


Also, I can't imagine you enjoying ANH that much. I mean, it has villains like Tarkin. We know he wanted to rule the galaxy through fear and that he was part of the Empire and hated the Rebels (such original villain motives!). As to why -- your guess is as good as mine.

Nope -- I'm not that guy. Although I will say that I'm happy not to be the guy discussed here:

http://imgur.com/gallery/kuMDSrd



However, I can say that I only became truly suspicious of Palpatine into Episode III. When you watch the films rapidly one right after the other you don't give all the plot points the same consideration that you would if you were waiting three years between films. I, at least, was more caught up in the excitement of watching the next film. That, and when I first watched the films , I wasn't nearly as interested in his character as I am now.

 

Here we go, more OT bashing from a 'supposed saga fan on TFN....

There is a perception here by fans like me who enjoy all 6 movies, but like the OT more, so that gives me the stigma as an PT basher. Well, lets be honest and start calling a spade a spade, because you are an OT basher. You guys LOVE to spout how much you see the movies 1-6, yet every argument you make you take a shot at the OT.
So just be honest about your prejudice towards the OT, because I am sick of people here calling me out everytime I take a shot at the PT.

 

Where did I say Tarkin's characterization was a bad thing? I love Tarkin! Like him a lot more than some PT villains *cough*Grievous*cough* but I wouldn't say he's a very deep character. Nor are his motivations really explored. Does he believe in the Empire on a philosophical level? Is he hoping to overthrow Palpatine himself? Is he a loyal follower of the man? Did the Rebellion accidentally harm his family in the conflict? He's not very fleshed out, but he works for what he does. He's a classic villain so, yeah, he isn't super original, but he doesn't need to be.

I extend that same thought to the PT. Not all the villains need to have in-depth backstories. Maul is one of them. For me, it's enough that he hates the Jedi and follows Sidious. If Heero_Yuy or other people aren't satisfied with that, it's their prerogative, but I'm at a loss as to why ANH's villains would be any more enjoyable when they aren't fleshed out.

And I don't have a "prejudice" against the OT -- I've seen the films many times and formed my opinion based on experience. And I've made it no secret that I prefer the PT. That doesn't take away from the fact that I still adore the OT -- particularly Luke and the Luke-Vader father-son relationship. But I don't like all aspects and I am certainly not going to lie about it. I don't find Tarkin to be a complex villain. Same with Grievous and Maul. Neither of these facts hinders my viewing experience. I don't exactly know what it is you want me to "confess" to.

 

My point is that if I said the same thing you just said and switched PT with OT, I would be known as a PT basher here, and have been called out many times because of that. But I notice all of the PT-lovers here conviently bash the OT whenever they want, yet they continue to say they are the Saga fans here, not people like me. You need to talk to your fellow PT-lovers here to listen to your views and understand 99% of probably prefer 1 Trilogy over the other trilogy, but that doesn't mean we still don't enjoy the 6 movies and the overall story it tells.

It sounds like you and me are both saga fans, but it doesn't always get portrayed that way here.

 

If you feel there is a bias against you then I have to say that I'm sorry you feel that way, but there's not much I can do about it. For my part, I have always endeavored to take your points into consideration even if I disagree with them. Yesterday on the thread you created I commented in a manner that you felt was unproductive and dismissive -- I apologized because I had intended it to be humorous and had obviously failed to get that across. If you think I'm being unfair, then please let me know, but beyond that I don't have much power or influence over others.

If you disagree with my reasons, please feel free to say so. I'm not afraid to engage. If you think Tarkin is a well-developed character that far outstrips Maul, then lay out your reasoning why. I might disagree with parts of it, but I might also agree with you on some points.

I'm not exactly sure why you thought my comment on Tarkin was bashing. It wasn't intended to be. I was merely using it to illustrate the point that even in the OT, villains weren't always very detailed. Here, I'm using the fact that I like the OT to demonstrate that I like similar elements in the PT. That Tarkin's lack of complexity no more bothers me than Maul's lack of complexity.

Where have I ever said that you can't be a Saga fan if you prefer one trilogy over the other? That'd be hypocritical in the extreme.

Note (for clarity) that I'm not trying to talk down to you or anything, but I feel like you're singling me out and I'm at a loss to explain why. Do you feel I've treated you unfairly? Or are you more frustrated with the general "feel" of the boards rather than me in particular?

 

Now that I have a daughter (she's only three months) I've been thinking about this questions. I think I'm going to show her The Holiday Special, ESB, I'll let her listen to the book on tape of The Truce at Bakura, AOTC, season 3 of the Clone Wars, and then The Ewok Adventure- in that order. She can pick up the rest as she chooses.



99% of the time I'm a fan of watching films, TV shows, or reading books in the order that they were released and I tend to think that's usually the best way to introduce someone to something that requires a bit of commitment, so I'd go with 4, 5, 6 before 1, 2, and 3. I have a few reasons for this but my biggest reason is that I think it's a pretty logical flow of the story as some of the most climactic moments would be revealed earlier and lose their impact. I think the biggest issue to me is that the ESB climax of Vader revealing himself to Luke (hardy har har) is diminished some if the audience already knows that as well. Granted, I imagine most normal people know that already, so maybe I can find a way to shield little Adora from that until she's old enough to understand the films.

There's also a lot of cool nods in the prequel trilogy that are more referential to the OT. Even something simple as someone warning a young Greedo in TPM has more meaning when we already know Greedo's fate.

 

The Midichlorians were important for two reasons. Reason one, to explain the Force in relation to Force users and non users.

"We also get into this thing of what are Midichlorians, how they work which advances a little bit of the story of the Force, and how does the Force work, how we come to know the Force which is part of Anakin’s training in learning to become a Jedi. And take the idea of the Force one step further. The Midchlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."

--George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.

"It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

--George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

Reason two, Anakin's origin and more importantly, why Anakin would start swallowing Palpatine's BS.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

It's not "Dragon Ball Z" or anything. Lucas said long ago that there were those who were dedicated enough to train in the ways of the Force and become masters of it and those who could, but don't for different reasons. All Midichlorians did in that regard was give it a more concrete reason why Han would have trouble believing in it and yet, Luke didn't. It went further to show that Anakin was a unique individual and that he was far more important than those who came up with the OT had realized.

Well, that is your right to do it that way. But just remember what Lucas said on the subject, as I posted a while ago.

 

And yet all the people I showed the Saga to in the I-VI order never (and I mean NEVER) needed anything explained to them. Simply because it was laid out PERFECTLY!

 

The fact is that those who say it should be OT to PT only say this because that's how they viewed it the first time and feel that it is the more satisfactory way to go. I believe some people that are new might be confused, but then they probably aren't that invested to begin with.

 

Another thing I liked about the 4-6, 1-3 version is how the Vader story progresses.
ANH-We learn he killed Luke's father, was Obi-Wan's apprentice, had the suit, killed Obi-Wan.
ESB-hunted Luke, was he Luke's father and if so why did Obi-Wan lie?
ROTJ-the truth, and that Luke was right.
TPM-What Anakin was like as a kid and who his love interest would be
AOTC-What Anakin was like as a Jedi and who his wife would be.
And finally ROTS-How Anakin fell to the Dark Side, how the Jedi Order fell, the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Anakin getting the suit, the birth of his kids and the death of his wife.
I just like the fact that at first we get an exciting villain that killed the main characters father, then we get a mystery of if he was the heroes father, then we get a good resolution to their arc, then we get the back story and ultimately end with his fall. One of the last mysteries of the 4-6, 1-3 saga and waiting for ROTS to come out in theaters itself made this reveal amazing.

 

That's what I mean by how you first saw it. I'm not saying it is the wrong way to go, but it becomes personal preference.

 

And seeing it 1-6 isn't?

 

If by personal preference, you mean the preference of the person who made the movies.

 

I'm cool if he wants us to see it that way but the people who use that as a legitimate reason to see the movies that way? Give me a break.
If they like the story 1-6 because of their own experiences thats fine.
We like the story 4-6, 1-3.
No one path is better than the other.

 

I like the story 1-6 because it's, you know, a story.

Also I think the intention of a story's creator is a pretty legitimate reason to experience it a certain way. I guess I'm just weird that way.

 

If liking Star Wars 1-6 makes me weird than I AM WEIRD

 

"Creator's intent" should really stop being used as an argument for numerical order. Action(release order) speaks louder than words(numerical order).

Order preference is all opinion. Trying to justify ones opinion by using "creator's intention" is folly.