Saga If introducing someone new to SW. Which trilogy would you have them watch first?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jcuk, Mar 31, 2013.

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  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

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    Those quotes are out there, but it doesn't seem very relevant to this discussion at the moment. Lucas either changed his mind and then changed it back, or he didn't let on at that time the fact that the ST was still brewing in the back of his mind. If anything though, I think it will only serve to solidify the numerical order in the end.
  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Although I'm definitely not one to let technological limitations spoil my enjoyment of a film (I would be perfectly happy if the SE's simply hadn't happened), in this case, I can actually see the point being made - even more so than the technology itself being extremely different between Eps III & IV, the execution of the films is very different - largely due to the tech - and I think that disparity jars a little bit.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 19, 2013
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  3. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Yes these are relevant because they should not be used to prove someone's point now simply because they contradict themselves. For years and years I have heard that story is 'The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' that is meant to be watched 1-6. That's irrelevant now cause Darth Vader won't be in the ST other then a force ghost, so there will be a new way we look at these movies now just like we did after they were just 4-6. My point is 'Let's leave Lucas's contradictory quotes out of all discussions.'
  4. Mystery Roach Chosen One

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    We really don't even know for sure that Anakin's story is over now just because he died though. 1-9 could end up being the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker (which 1-6 is already but there's still room for expansion of the redemption part), while still being a multi-generational family drama at the same time. I agree that we will once again have to shift our perception of the saga as a whole once these films are released, but we don't have any idea how yet. Anyway, I still think it's apples and oranges where this discussion is concerned. I foresee very little if any possibility that the ST will reinforce the notion that the films should viewed out of chronological order, and it doesn't make much sense to me to throw out the baby with the bathwater where Lucas's quotes are concerned. The ST is still his brainchild, and I seriously doubt his intentions for the viewing order of the saga have changed just because he decided to add to it.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I don't have that. But the point with that is that Lucas told his story. What Disney does is their own thing. Lucas didn't contradict himself because he sold his company and a condition of that sale was the creation of new films.

    But it isn't that big of a disparity. If you watch from ROTS to ANH, it really isn't that big a deal and with the SE's, it cushion's things a little. You have Tatooine which is consistent between the PT and ANH, including the use of practical sets for the moisture farm and Obi-wan's hovel. Mos Espa and Mos Eisley are consistent thanks to the SE. Having the story set on worlds that aren't technologically advanced like Coruscant only helps.

    The story of Anakin Skywalker is TPM to ROTJ. What happens in VII through IX is about a new generation. Lucas said that a long time ago when he was still thinking about doing nine films that the focus would be more on Luke's sibling than on what Luke and Vader went through. He even said to Hamill that in one of the films, Luke would be "handing over Excalibur" to the new crop of Jedi. And in regards to how you view the Saga, as I've repeatedly posted, Lucas said you can watch his films either way and you'd get different reactions and scenarios. But in terms of the story itself it is I through VI. That's why he put "Episode IV" on ANH in 79 and "Episode V" on TESB when it came out.
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  6. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Succinctly put.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Dec 20, 2013
  7. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    @Darth Sinister

    Are you guys going to cling to your 'Tragedy of Darth Vader' story even though the ST is being made? [face_laugh]

    First of all, if you are going to argue about this topic you need to be completely honest about Lucas's involvement with the ST. Even though he sold Lucasfilm to Disney he is STILL involved in the new trilogy, essentially writing the outline that Abrams and Kasdan will go off of. Even Lucas's son tweeted that Lucas talks to Abrams everyday about the ST, as they will start filming early next year. Lucas will be very much involved in this trilogy, but at his age he will probably enjoy being behind the scenes more now.

    The irony of your argument that the movies are still about 'Tragedy of Darth Vader' despite 3 more movies AFTER he dies, is that you are sounding EXACTLY like the same OOT fans you have probably criticized for years that they need to move on that the movies aren't just about Luke anymore. Lucas has been doing this since the beginning, as revising the overall story, and each fanbase has had to come to terms with it.

    First it was the SW'77 fans (many of my older brothers friends) who didn't like where the sequels took the Star Wars Trilogy, as it went from a simple story of good vs evil, to a story about Luke finding about that his father was Darth Vader, along with Leia being his sister. Trust me, I was the Darth Sinister of the 1980's defending Lucas to them saying that the story is much more bigger and deeper then just the original movie from 1977. Then OOT fans didn't like where the PT took the story as it was now the full character arc of Darth Vader, tracing him from a little kid to his death at ROTJ.

    Now the ST will re-define the 9 movies and we will be talking about the SW Saga in a new light in 2020. YOU and many others here need to come to terms that the 'Tragedy of Darth Vader' is so 2005, just like the 'The Adventures of Luke Skywalker' are so 1983. What will be even more funny is when some young SW fan comes on this board (who grew up with the ST 9 episode arc) and talks to you the same way you talked to OOT fans here that your story of SW is not the story the younger generation see's. [face_laugh]

    Darth Sinister, you have finally come full circle as a SW fan. Welcome to the world of Lucas contradictions and how we all get put in the rear view mirror to the younger generation of fans with each new trilogy! :p
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 20, 2013
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  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    But I through VI still is the Tragedy of Darth Vader. Likewise IV through VI is still the "Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (which will presumably continue into the ST). You're setting up a false dichotomy; it doesn't have to be one or the other. The films can overlap in terms of the stories they tell, with Luke's adventures taking place at the conclusion of his father's story. The new movies probably won't features Anakin/Vader (or, if they do, then it will be a very minor part most likely), but that doesn't change the fact that I through VI is his story. Star Wars is a saga and that doesn't necessarily mean following one individual -- it can mean following the tales of a family as well.
  9. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    @PiettsHat

    We agree :) that there isn't one name for the SW movies, as I have always said the 9 movie SW Saga will be essentially a story about good vs evil in a galaxy, far, far away told through 3 generation of Skywalkers.

    The problem is people like @Darth Sinister are still saying that the 'Tragedy of Darth Vader' is still the story, and that the ST is just add-on that shouldn't specifically associate itself with the previous movies. That would be all well and fine, but the fact that they are calling them Episode 7,8,9 means they ARE apart of the story now. ;) There are spinoff movies that Disney will be releasing in the next few years, but they will not have an episode title next to them, so THOSE are the ones that wont be apart of the essential 9 part story that we will all look at when it is all said and done.

    So you and I agree by not limiting the Saga to one person,but I'm not the one you should have a beef with, its really Darth Sinister. :) Hopefully the next time I log on I see you that called him out on his post and correct him that Lucas is involved in the new Trilogy, and that he should stop limiting his view that the SW Saga is only the 'Tragedy of Darth Vader' cause you were VERY quick to respoind to my post. ;)
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 20, 2013
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    @Carbon1985

    I hadn't read your entire discussion with Darth Sinister, so forgive me if I missed something, but he seemed to be saying something similar to what I stated:

    "The story of Anakin Skywalker is TPM to ROTJ. What happens in VII through IX is about a new generation…."

    I think he was contesting an earlier point you made:

    "For years and years I have heard that story is 'The Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker' that is meant to be watched 1-6. That's irrelevant now cause Darth Vader won't be in the ST other then a force ghost, so there will be a new way we look at these movies now just like we did after they were just 4-6"

    I can't speak for Darth Sinister, of course, but it seemed to me as though you were saying that because episodes VII through IX will be made that I to VI as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" is irrelevant. I simply disagree with that assessment. I don't think the fact that new stories are being told in any way invalidates or renders irrelevant seeing the I through VI Saga as Anakin's story -- no more than the creation of the prequels invalidated IV through VI as Luke's story.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Dec 20, 2013
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  11. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3

    Still waiting for you to call Darth Sinister out when he said that Lucas has nothing to do with this trilogy as this is Disneys trilogy and Lucas's story ended with Episode 6. You and I both know that's a lie, but again you responded to me within minutes? Makes me wonder about this site as we have talked together privately that you guys are circling the wagons for your side but are quick to go after the other side.

    Then again, maybe I'm wrong and you will correct Darth Sinisters lie in your next post. :)
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 20, 2013
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    You mean this?

    "But the point with that is that Lucas told his story. What Disney does is their own thing. Lucas didn't contradict himself because he sold his company and a condition of that sale was the creation of new films."

    I don't disagree with that. Lucas isn't the one telling this story. He might have outlined it, but it will be up to Disney and JJ Abrams to bring it to life. Lucas no longer has creative control over Star Wars given that he sold it with Lucasfilm. I'm not exactly sure what you would like me to contest here.

    Also, I find your style of discussion rather odd. Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you just keep pointing out other users that you think I should be talking to. Umm…if I want to address something in their posts, I will. I'm perfectly capable of deciding that myself. I addressed you because I wanted to discuss a point you made.

    I've disagreed with Darth Sinister before (we had a rather long back and forth about Leia's relatability as a character), but in this case, I do agree with him.

    And just to be clear, there's no "sides" to this -- it's just someone's opinion that I happen to agree with. If you want to discuss the merits of Luke's character arc or the awesome style of the Empire, I'd be happy to discuss that with you as well. And you'll probably find that we're in agreement about a lot of things.
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  13. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
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    @PiettsHat

    You guys are using the 'Lucas sold Lucasfilm' as a crutch to keep the SW saga the way you want to see it (or atleast how Darth Sinister and others here see it). Yes, Lucas sold it Disney, but he is still involved in this movie, as I quoted his own son said that he and JJ talk everyday. Why would he talk to him everyday, if he weren't involved in the ST a lot more then you think?

    By your argument, then Kershner is the one who brought ESB to life, and Maquand was the one who brought ROTJ to life, as Lucas did not direct those movies either? If Lucas walked away and wasn't involved at all on the ST in any capacity, then I would agree with you. And in that respect, I would not be for Disney making the ST, because whatever I think of Lucas directing and writing in the PT, I still love the story he tells about a galaxy far far away and I will always want him to be atleast making the outline story as to what we see next.

    As for choosing sides, I was called out last week vehemently for questioning Lucas's decision to have Padme lose the will to live. I was told to get over it and he or she was sick of people like me continue to bring up this point on this site. It got heated when I responded that it was my opinion and I had a right to question Padme losing the will to live plot point, eventually leading me to getting banned here for a few days after I questioned why he was allowed to get away with calling out my opinions?

    It had everything to do that I wasn't on his or her 'side' and that is why he or she was so quick to call me out.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    star 4

    It's just a difference of interpretation is all. I wasn't trying to "call you out," just sharing my perspective. I didn't call you a liar or anything.

    That Lucas sold Lucasfilm is relevant because Lucas is decidedly no longer in control of the creative process. I compare it to how fans write fan fiction -- they use the world the original author has created and may even use ideas from the original author (such as from old drafts or interview materials) to incorporate in their story but, in the end, it's still a story that they are telling. It's their story. I see Lucas as filling a largely similar role with Episodes VII through IX (at least as I understand it). Yes, he discusses things with JJ Abrams, but JJ is the one who will be making the decisions at the end of the day -- NOT Lucas.

    There's a difference between Lucas being the one to tell the story and deciding what stays and goes versus being a valued resource. In my opinion, at least.

    With Kershner and Maquand, Lucas may not have directed those films, but he still had total control over them in the end. He was the major creative force behind those projects and could decide what stayed and went.

    And, again, I'm sorry if you feel persecuted on this site, but I don't really see why you brought this up with me. If you are having heated discussions and are being targeted or unfairly shut down then I suggest you talk about it with a mod or the user in question. I'm not trying to be patronizing here but I thought I should let you know that you can come across as kind of defensive.

    I don't know what the mods' policy is in particular, but I don't think there's anything wrong with challenging someone's opinion as long as it's done in a respectful manner (but I'm not aware of the specifics of your case, so I can't speak to that). It seems as though that's just a way to facilitate discussion -- and a good way, as long as no one is being put down.

    Either way, my original opinion is the same -- I don't think the existence of the ST renders "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" irrelevant. I think it's just adding a new story to the Saga.
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  15. Mystery Roach Chosen One

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    I think we're in a weird gray area with the ST as far as Lucas's involvement. Obviously he doesn't have the creative control that he had for the previous movies, but it's still his story and he seems to be fairly active in the process of bringing it to life. Everyone involved seems to value his input, and as long as that's the case he'll probably give it. But how much of him will be in the ST in the end though really remains to be seen, and I don't think anybody but the people involved can say for sure. By all accounts its a good amount so far, but I doubt he'll be on the set unless it's just for a visit, and if he's in the editing room at all it surely won't be full time.

    All that said, I do think the ST will ultimately be able to be viewed as a part of Lucas's Saga proper, whereas I'm sure that won't be able to be said about many of the things that will come down the line.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Dec 20, 2013
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  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I can agree with this. I guess where I can see darth-sinister's point too is that it's not really Lucas who is telling the story. He'll still have input (and, as you and other have noted, how much remains to be seen) but I feel like it's not the same thing as him actually being the one to relate the story to us. At the end of the day, JJ answers to Disney and he will do as they say rather than Lucas (and that can be a good or bad thing, I suppose, depending on one's perspective). I know Lucas provided some of the info for the earlier EU books and while I would certainly say that he was a major contributor, I don't know that I would necessarily say that he's the one telling those stories. The authors are, in my opinion.
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  17. Mystery Roach Chosen One

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    But even the higher-ups at Disney seem to respect Lucas's vision, and my feeling is that he will want the ST to remain as close to his vision as possible. He made no bones about his disregard for the EU in general, but his films are his babies, so while I think he's in a transitional period of letting go, I believe the ST will be as close to what he wants it to be as possible in order to complete his part of the story in a way that honors his vision for it as a whole. After the nine-part saga is complete, Disney/Lucasfilm will be more free to do whatever they want in that universe however they want to do it, but I think the ST will be a special case where Lucas will still get his way for the most part. He's indicated that he's developed story ideas besides the ST as well, so I suspect that he came to Disney with a plan for expanding the Star Wars universe beyond these nine films, but that they will be more his thing in the end and the rest of it will be treated more like the EU has in the past, only with a higher status in the continuity.
  18. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    That's the policy in a nutshell.

    Back on topic, please people - the upcoming Sequel Trilogy isn't a part of the SW Saga just yet, and not relevant to this discussion.
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  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    No, it's not a big disparity, and it doesn't bother me - but you can't deny it's there. It's one of the reasons that I prefer the OT then PT viewing order, and also why I consider the Saga to be currently made up of two separate trilogies, not simply six episodes.

    Incidentally, the moisture farm set at the end of ROTS was shot on a soundstage, not on location (although footage was shot for Episode III during the AOTC shoot, then abandoned).
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Lucas told the story that he wanted to tell and finished it in 2005. What we have now is a new story that features the characters from the OT carrying over into the ST. The focus is less on Luke Skywalker and more on the new characters, which was part of Lucas's ideas way back when. He's involved in this project as a courtesy to Disney and Lucasfilm. He was asked and he's offering up his ideas that he had had, but that's about the bulk of it. He won't have final say in the matter. It's Abrams' own project. At most, Lucas is giving him a crash course in "Star Wars 101".

    I didn't say that it wasn't there. But it is only an issue if you focus on the differences between when the movies were made and the methods used to make them. It's there no matter what order you see the films in and short of remaking the OT, just to assuage those who cannot focus on the story, then there's nothing left to say.
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  21. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mod edit: I've already stated that the Sequel Trilogy isn't relevant to this discussion, and you've already been warned about not attacking other users - using sarcasm and mockery doesn't make such a post any less of a personal attack.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 21, 2013
  22. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mod edit: Now you're just trolling. Out.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 23, 2013
  23. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    @darth-sinister

    It doesn't bother me, but the quote attributed to me above was actually made by Carbon 1985.
  24. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I think this thread's had its day, anyway.

    Locking
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