PT If Padme had lived........

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Frankakin skywalker, Dec 28, 2012.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I oppose the midichlorians because I oppose the idea of a Chosen One, not due to Force magic.

    It makes him stupid.
  2. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    No it doesn't, it means he lost control, that he is/has lost himself to his rage.

    There is a difference between having some mysticism in the universe and not being a fan of "she died of a broken heart". A "broke heart" is just a metaphor for feeling sad and the emotional pain caused by losing a loved one. You can't die from it. There is Stress Cardiomyopathy, which is sudden heart failure caused by emotional trauma, but Padme didn't die suddenly.
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  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    His end goal was to ensure that he kept her from dying. Based on that, killing her because he was mad was just stupid. It defeats his entire purpose and he should have known that.
  4. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    She lost the will to live != She doesn't want to live.
    It's not a choice, it's something that happens to you .... well, unwillingly. If it was a choice and she decided to die, then her death would have to be different. She would have said "Obi-Wan, I'm going to die now. I don't want to live anymore. I just wanted to tell you that there's good in Anakin. Believe me and watch over my children.(closes her eyes and dies)" instead of her "Obi-Wan ... there is good in him....I know....I know....there is....still...." which obviously showed that she fighted to stay alive as long as possible.
    Losing the will to live is more comparable to losing hope. You don't want to stop hoping, it's just something you can't change. Or hardly change.

    This is the way I see it, too.

    That there is some kind of bond between Anakin and Padmé or that as the cause of her death is the stupidest thing ever?
    Some kind of bond is not stupid:
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    Last edited by Samnz, Nov 26, 2013
  5. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Not stupid, that he lost control isn't himself. He got close to killing her as is.

    Losing the will to live is giving up on living. Its common when someone is near death they fight for survival that it was their "will to live" that carried them through. Not having the will to live is someone giving up, generally because of a loss of purpose. For some reason her children weren't reason enough for her to want to live.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I actually agree with you about the bond between Anakin and Padme. But I think that bond causing her death was stupid.

    As far as "losing the will to live..." Losing hope is also a choice. And it doesn't kill the people who make it.
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  7. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    They should've bought stocks and bonds too.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Actually, that's fairly close to the treatment in the novelization, which survived Lucas' edit:

    "All organic damage has been repaired." The droid checked another readout. "This systemic failure cannot be explained."

    Not physically, Obi-Wan thought.


    Kenneth Morgan's post could be repurposed here with a slight modification: I find it interesting that many fans believe that there must be a concrete, scientifically-provable, real world cause of Padme's death Leia remembering Padme, while another group of fans utterly oppose the concept of midichlorians, believing that they remove the "magic" of the Force. I wonder how much of a crossover there is between each group.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 26, 2013
  9. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    Mirrored shots doesn't, to me anyway, imply any kind of supernatural bond.

    I don't even see any kind of link implied between Padme falling out of the gunship and rolling down a sand bank and Anakin getting zapped by Force lightning. Anakin is killing kids to fulfill Padme's wishes as part of a bargain to save Padme's life. Padme is crying because Jedi are getting slaughtered. I don't think there's any kind of implied bond there. She's worried about Anakin, she's not sensing him killing kids. She doesn't believe Obi-Wan when he tells her that she slaughtered younglings. She merely sees a fire at the Jedi Temple from her window and is worried. I don't see how that implies any kind of supernatural bond. No more so than if there's a shooter in a mall and someone is anxiously watching the news coverage and crying because they know they have a friend inside.

    Of course they share an emotional connection, but being in vaguely similar situations doesn't imply some kind of Force bond between the two such that when Anakin "dies" Padme does too.

    I know that Lucas has commented on the mirroring of the death of Leia and the birth of the twins being meant to mirror the death of Anakin and the birth of Darth Vader.

    You can say that the death of Padme signifies the death of the Republic and the birth of the children signifies the birth of a new hope. While the death of Anakin is the death of the Jedi and the birth of Vader is the rise of the Empire, or some such like that.

    But leaping of symmetry in symbolism to the idea that there is some kind of supernatural bond between the two that kills Padme is not implied in that symbolism, and nowhere that I aware of does Lucas rationalize Padme's death in that way.

    It's evident that the death is supernatural, since people cannot just lose the will to live and die. But if I want to play connect-the-dots, this is how I see them.


    Anakin is "dying/dead." Padme is speaking to Vader. Padme can't follow Vader. Her heart is broken.


    Padme said she could not follow Anakin because of the path he's chosen. Here Anakin is declaring a new Empire his. Padme fought for the preservation of the Republic and democracy. Vader has set himself up as the polar opposite of Padme and is only truly "born" when Padme dies. And in the end we see Palpatine delight in bringing Vader the news that Padme is dead.




    By this point I think that everything can be taken at face value, including what the droid says. Anakin is dead, Vader is the complete antithesis of Padme's goals, the fact that Anakin has become Vader has broken her heart. Everything that she loved and cared about -- the Republic and Anakin -- are destroyed. She dies. No psychic Force bond, no droid trying to explain some weird Force action that kills her, merely that she had nothing to live for and lost the will to live.

    I get it. I see the symbolism. Yet I feel that Padme as she was set up in TPM and AOTC... to come to this end... is just so incompatible. She was defiant of Anakin when it came to saving Obi-Wan, she was defiant of Palpatine when she returned to Naboo and decided to fight the Trade Federation. I feel like it would have been more consistent with her character to remain defiant of the Emperor and Vader. She was willing to lay her life down for the greater good and to do what is right. But she dies an ignoble death of suffering a broken heart because her husband tore down everything that she worked for.

    The strong willed character dies a weak-willed death. I get that it's a tragedy. But that doesn't inherently make it good. She just seemed zapped of the passion and drive she had in the prior two films from the very beginning of ROTS, and it didn't help the matter that they stripped the final film of her Delegation of 2000 scenes.

    I also find it humorous that they omitted this from the final film:


    That would just help solidify the awkward and bad ending when she can't summon the will to live for her children. Apparently they decided it was better to not attack this subject in dialogue.

    These are films that people of any age can enjoy, and I've heard Lucas stress that he's actpually targeting younger people. These films need to be made accessible for children to understand. Lucas might evoke mythology or historical and political commentaries, but he spins them in a way that people of all ages can understand.

    The Rebels were mixed sex, species and race, the Imperials were a bunch of white males. There was no dialogue to call attention to this, but it's something I think people notice either consciously or subconsciously. Uniformity and order = bad, diversity and freedom = good. Simple ideas.

    Padme's heart is broken and she loses the will to live. I think people can understand that. As dumb as I say the idea is it's at least easy to understand. The more convoluted an explanation needs to get by calling into question whether or not you can trust the medical droid relaying information to Obi-Wan (and the audience), the harder it is for me to buy that Lucas would ever intend that for an accessible film.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 26, 2013
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  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    His agony somehow became an invisible hand, stretching out through the Force, a hand that found her, far away, alone in her apartment in the dark, a hand that felt the silken softness of her skin and the sleek coils of her hair, a hand that dissolved into a field of pure energy, of pure feeling that reached inside her -
    And now he felt her, really felt her in the Force, as though she could have been some kind of Jedi, too, but more than that: he felt a bond, a connection, deeper and more intimate than he'd ever had before with anyone, even Obi-Wan; for a precious eternal instant he was her... he was the beat of her heart and he was the motion of her lips and he was her soft words as though she spoke a prayer to the stars -
    I love you, Anakin. I am yours, in life, and in death, wherever you go, whatever you do, we will always be one. Never doubt me, my love. I am yours.
    - ROTS novel
  11. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    That's why I said it's "more comparable" and not that it's the same.
    I wouldn't say losing hope is a strict choice, though. I'd call it a subconscious choice because it requires a certain strength to withstand that overwhelming feel of hopelessness. Given the circumstances and the past experience, one might want to hope but simply can't. I imagine that would be possible.

    Again, I'm just saying "losing one's will to live" is not a choice, at least not a conscious choice. It represents a certain condition (both physical and mental) that is a result of recent events. That's why I oppose the notion that she "gave up" and left her babies alone.

    Even if we call it a "conscious choice" (which it isn't, imo), we could debate to the end of the day whether is was the "right" or the "wrong" decision.

    Mirrored? If two characters are repeatedly intercutted and shown as sharing connatural or reciprocal emotions, it does imply and emotional connetction to me and - since we are talking about Star Wars - it could very well reach a supernatural, Force-influenced state.

    It's not about her fall and it's not about his Force lightning expercience, it's about their recovery of consciousness.
    Anakin regains consciousness at the same time that Padmé wakes up. That's the point.

    No, she's not sensing his slaughter. That's way too specific. What she feels, though, is that he is corrently at his worst. He is killing cildren in his misguided quest to save their unborn kids. Lucas talks about that in the commentary IIRC.

    Again, that takes it too far. I've never said it was the sole reason for her death. No. But it contributed to her critical conditions.

    The Ruminations Scene at least is more than just a "hint".

    That symbolism is in no way correlated to their bond, indeed.

    I don't know, for me it's more connecting the dots.
    Last edited by Samnz, Nov 27, 2013
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7

    That does not seem like the Matt Stover novelization. Are you talking about the junior one, by Patricia C. Wrede? It does have a few scenes that the Stover one does not, though I've only read it once.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 27, 2013
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Padme in TPM had that strength. I'd say that having the planet that she ruled invaded and her citizens taken into camps was far worse than having her husband turn evil.

    I used to defend Padme by saying it wasn't just that, it's that she felt responsible for the creation of the Empire, but even so, Padme in TPM would have fought back.
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  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    star 7
    It is, though.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Ah- are we talking about a scene much earlier, and not the "Anakin on operating table" scene? That was what I was thinking of when I couldn't remember those words.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I think that inner monologue was during the ruminations scene. Not totally sure but it seems like Anakin sensed it just before he decided to disobey Mace.
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    It is, now that I look it up.

    Hadn't thought of applying the logic behind the inner monologue, to the later scene though.
  18. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    You have to remember that's from when she was fourteen. At that age, you naturally feel you're invincible and can take on the world and won't ever give up. Now add nearly fourteen years, including serving in a moral sinkhole called the Senate and being involved in a bitter, terrible war for around three years. That'd do some heavy damage to one's inner strength of purpose. Now have everything you value destroyed or corrupted almost simultaneously.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    She was only 27 or 28. Way too young to give up on life, especially for the reason or reasons that she did.

    Hell, Obi-Wan was ten years older than she was (and still young), had just seen his worst nightmare come to pass brought about by the person he had raised as a son, had also been involved in the war and on the front lines, and he didn't "lose the will to live."

    Padme was idealistic but the loss of idealism in a strong person translates into cynicism, not death. And she was strong in TPM and AOTC. I cannot sympathize with her weakness in ROTS, it is nothing to me but the destruction of a great character in the worst way possible.
  20. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Again there is a different between accepting some mysticism in Star Wars in the way of the force, and accepting/believing that Leia remember Padme was very kind (a personality trait no less, which would she had to have SOME interaction with her mother), beautiful but sad even though she was only a few minutes old when she died AND that Luke didn't remember her at all.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Interestingly in the RotJ novelization, while Luke can't remember what she was like, he can remember back to just before he was separated from her:

    "For that reason, your sister has remained safely anonymous."
    Luke resisted this knowledge at first. He neither needed nor wanted a twin. He was unique! He had no missing parts - save the hand whose mechanical replacement he now flexed tightly. Pawns in a castle conspiracy? Cribs mixed, siblings switched and parted and whisked away to different secret lives? Impossible! He was Luke Skywalker, born to a Jedi-turned-Sithlord, raised on a Tatooine sandfarm by Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, raised in a life without frills, a hardworking honest pauper - because his mother ... his mother ... What was it about his mother? What had she said? Who was she? What had she told him? He turned his eyes inward, to a place and time far away from the damp soil of Dagobah, to his mother's chamber, his mother and his ... sister. His sister ...
    "Leia! Leia is my sister! he exclaimed, nearly falling over the stump.
    "Your insight serves you well," Ben nodded.
  22. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

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    May 27, 1999
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    As I noted in another thread, I just figure Leia was having Force visions of the past and, not understanding what they were, believed them to be actual memories. Luke may have also had them, but he may have just believed them to be dreams or something and forgotten them.
  23. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Sure you can try to make up any explination you want, but bottom line is that line doesn't really jive with what happens int he movies. If it did, you wouldn't have to come up with that kind of reasoning.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I wondered if Luke's immediate "There is still good in him" comment about Vader, was a bit of Padme's last feelings, that stuck in Luke's mind, even if nothing else did.
  25. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

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    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Padme is far more sensitive than Obi-Wan, and has far more that can be used against her. Plus, Obi-Wan was trained since infancy to be detached and take the long view of things. Yes, it hit him hard, but it crushed her.

    And, once again, it's that she basically got hit with everything that would hurt her all at once. If even one thing had been different, she might have been able to stand it. For example, if Anakin had still been weeping over his actions when she met him on Mustafar, rather than looking like he'd won the Super Bowl, the World Series and the Powerball lottery, she'd have had a different reaction.
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