If Palpatine's plan went as designed....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DARTHCARDINUS, Dec 24, 2004.

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  1. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    toochilled, I dont agree with you on that.

    I think he intended for Maul to survive because he truly believed that Maul could kill two jedi at once. And to be honest with you he could have killed two jedi at once, he just didnt know Maul was going to fight "the luckiest man in the galaxy" (obi-wan)

    But I seriously doubt Sidious would take a sith lord (that he probably raised from birth) and want to replace him with a former jedi who's old enough to have a padawan who has a padawan who's old enough to have a padawan o_O
  2. limsunno Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    i think the blockade of naboo was a move to Put Valorum in crisis & take his Place....
    i think the oriGinal Plan but aPart this bit that Sidius suceeded was for the crisis to Go deePer & Put the rePublic & the Jedi in further crisis, hence te Trade Federation conQuerinG Naboo & Darth Maul takinG down 2 Jedi....
    futhermore now we know thanks to the book which Just went out the followinG imPortant new stuff:
    the clone armY was ordered after TPM
    Dooku Joined Siduis after TPM
    Sifo-DYas was killed after TPM bY Dooku which where his SITH trials
    so this shows that SidsPalPatine oriGinal Plan & the time of TPM chanGed dramaticallY
  3. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Actually it's a good point did Sidious send Maul to his death, I don't think so, raised by him a "true sith" not a turned Jedi, it did not seem that Maul would want anything more than the revenge upon the Jedi, he had no grand plans to kill his master, but to help his master get revenge on the jedi, this had been programmed into him. And Sidous knew he could help, remember this, anything Maul couldn't handle Sidious could and would on the politcal side of things via hologram. He did it before and he could do it again. In AOTC Sidious could done what Dooku was able to accomplish, no problem.

    Lets's say the Maul Vs Obi fight turned out to be a draw like the AOTC fight. I do think that Palps would have eventually pitted Maul and Anakin against each other, to see who was better. Sidious goes for survival of the fittest, he wants only the best.

    What does Sidious do if Anakin is killed by Dooku in ROTS. Then he has a real problem, becasue he knows Dooku will be after him soon. And he is a prisoner on Dooku's ship even thought they are faking it all. And he has no apprentice to help him. What a huge risk.

  4. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    ''it did not seem that Maul would want anything more than the revenge upon the Jedi, he had no grand plans to kill his master, but to help his master get revenge on the jedi, ''

    and by that he is not a true sith! ;)


    I KNOW Lucas has stated that Palps didn't mean for him to die, but I disagree with Lucas on this, or rather; I think that Lucas didn't quite explain xhat he meant fully.

    Hopefully there will be more about this in epIII. I have a feeling Palpatine will explain lots to young Anakin.
  5. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    If Maul hadn't been killed he'd of gone back to the Hanger, waited for Anakin to return, kidnap him and train him in secret as a Sith for the next 10 years, then Maul and Anakin would overthrow Sidious and rule the galaxy. Search your feelings, you know it to be true! :cool:
  6. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    What a wicked combo Darth Maul and Darth Vader, what a sith pair that would have made.
  7. TH421 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2004
    star 2
    "All has proceeded as I have forseen it." - Emperor Palpatine, ROTJ

    I think Palpatine's plan has unfolded exactly as designed. Maul was expendable. He was deployed at that time to draw the attention of the Jedi away from what was actually going on - Palpatine manipulating events to become Supreme Chancellor. In fact, if Maul had lived, he might have inadvertently led the Jedi back to Palpidious. So Palps sent a minion who was blindly, violently aggressive assuring a lethal showdown with the Jedi concerned. Maul was not a threat the Jedi were going to be able to overlook.

    Notice that the Jedi were not with the Naboo contingent when Queen Amidala called for a vote of no confidence. Palpatine was.

    "Only now, at the end, do you begin to understand." - Emperor Palpatine, ROTJ
  8. DARTHCARDINUS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 1
    great discussion everyone....im glad the thread had legs....
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine has not forseen everything, otherwise he'd still be alive. He didn't forsee Maul's death. That Luke and Leia lived. That Yoda still lived and trained Luke. And that Vader would become good again, before killing him.

    So, odds are that he didn't forsee Maul's death.
  10. ben_07 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 4
    SIDIOUS'S PLAN:

    1.) Have TF inavde Naboo
    a-They succeed, become a threat to the Republic, so the Senate dcides to get rid of Valorum and he'll be elected because of sympathy to Naboo.
    b-They fail. Palpatine becomes Chancellor because Valorum failed to prevent it and the Senate is sympathetic to him and Naboo. Now the TF can ally with other unahppy corporations and planets to create a bigger threat.

    *B turns out to be the case, but not exactly. Unexpected is Obi-wan killing Darth Maul, and the Chosen One being discovered. Or he could have sent Maul to his death after finding a more powerful apprentice who had jst been rejected by the Jedi: Anakin. But then the Jedi decide to train him anayways.

    2.) With B correct, have new apprentice create an army for the Republic, and rally its unhappy factions together and give them an army. There will be war.

    Result: No way this can't happen. War begins. But he didn't plan on Padme surviving, he wanted her dead so she couldn't convince others to not create an army. But she sruvives, and goes into hiding, which is just as good. Obi-wan begins the war even earlier than he planned by discovering Kamino, and being captured on Geonosis. The Chosen One is coming along jsut fine too.




    **********************

    3.) End war. Convert Anakin. Dooku to be killed by Anakin. Grievous to be killed by Anakin after he kills Obi-wan. Separist leaders are to be killed by Anakin. Covince Senate he needs to be Emperor and keep powers to prevent any crisis from harming the galaxy again. Announce the Jedi as Traitors and have Anakin hunt them down. Begin construction of Death Star, so after Anakin has killed all opposition no one will dare oppose with the Death Star.

    RESULTS: Most of this turns out good, some of it doesn't. GG fails to kill Obi-wan, so Obi-wan defeats Anakin and most of his power is lost, and Obi-wan saves the twins and hides them, and the twins are later responsible for finding and exploting the Death Star's weakness, and when one's life is threatened it results in Palpatine's death.


    ************************



    General Grievous is the cause of separation between Anakin and Obi-wan, which lets Sidious convert Anakin to the darkside. Obi-wan discovers Sidious=Palpatine because of spying on General Grievous. When Obi-wan tells Mace by hologram, Mace goes to confront Palaptine. This speeds up Anakin's turn to the darkside, the ris eof the Empire, and the Jedi Purge.

    Because General Grievous screws up and fails to kill Obi-wan the chain is set for a series of setbacks and Palpatine's ultimate demise.
  11. Count_D00ku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2004
    star 3
    ^ excellent explanation :)

    EDIT: fixed emoticon
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Result: No way this can't happen. War begins. But he didn't plan on Padme surviving, he wanted her dead so she couldn't convince others to not create an army. But she sruvives, and goes into hiding, which is just as good. Obi-wan begins the war even earlier than he planned by discovering Kamino, and being captured on Geonosis. The Chosen One is coming along jsut fine too.

    Uh, I don't think it mattered to Palpatine if Padme was dead or not. If it did, he would've sent someone to Naboo. It only mattered to Nute, but even then it became a moot point since he joined the Confederacy anyway. All that he needed was Padme out of the way, so that he can be given Emergency Powers. And I think the Clone Wars started on schedule.

    Sidious: "Excellent. Everything is going according to plan."

  13. Evenflow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2004
    star 1
    That's very easy to figure out, given Palpatine's history.

    He would've simply done the same thing he did either way: approach Dooku after he leaves the Jedi Order and secretly pit him against Maul. Dooku would've easily destroyed Maul IMO, and thus Dooku would become the new Sith.

    Maul was a good warrior but he was too limited in his uses. He's good at killing but not much else, so he was somewhat of a crutch to the versatile Palpatine.
  14. Pipoli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    I believe this refers specifically to the AOTC events (start a war, create an army, wipe out some jedi, etc.)

    I believe this refers to specifically to the events of ROTJ (trapping the Rebel Fleet, and Luke dueling Vader).

    As a Sith, surely Sidious will say "all" and "everything" to try to show superiority over his enemy.

    I see Sidious general plan much as Luke's plan to rescue Solo in ROTJ.

    Luke probably had a "feeling" that he had to go to Jabba's palace and made sure he had all tools and backup tools to end up rescuing Solo (surely he didn't know they would end up in the Sarlacc Pit).

    The same applies to Sidious: foreseeing the future (always in motion), he knew he could dominate the galaxy. It was possible. Then, he started to prepare ground and be ready for whatever unexpected events could happen (Maul's death, for instance) and we know how it turned out.

    He doesn't previously know every single detail in the PT...but that is just my opinion. ;)
  15. Civil_Servant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 1
    Yeah Palps looked pretty dissapointed at Qui-Gon's funeral and I don't think it was about Qui-Gon.
  16. Unnamed_Soldier Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    "Palpatine has not forseen everything, otherwise he'd still be alive. He didn't forsee Maul's death. That Luke and Leia lived. That Yoda still lived and trained Luke. And that Vader would become good again, before killing him.
    So, odds are that he didn't forsee Maul's death." -Darth-Sinister

    ok, first, that is circular l;ogic. you cant have a part of your reasoning for why he didnt forsee mauls death as being that he didnt forsee it:p

    ok, i dont think he intended maul to die.
    to see the master plan in action, you have to go further back than anyone on this thread has thus mentioned.

    around the time of TPM, dooku(who is already working for palpy) goes to the cloners, and requests a army for the republic while using the name of "Master Cypher Dias(or however you spell it:p). he gives them jango to clone and leaves him there.

    now, while that is ahppenin, maul goes off to fight the jedi. lets say he still kills quigon, but obi and him draw and neither dies. unless he is sent again to attack someone, then the rest of the movie plays out the same except that they dont know who he is or where he went.

    now, in AOTC, the clones are rdy for war, maul and dooku are both still alive, each doing their own part(maul prolly only training to kill more jedi:p). maul goes off to geonosis with dooku. he gets in the fight with obi and ani first, and could prolly take em both but obi fights dooku, and loses like he does in the movie, and ani somehow manages to kill maul cause hes pissed off, and brings him a lil closer to the dark side:p

    yoda shows up, saves em(maybe he kills maul instead of ani killen him), and they now know nothing really new, they just now know that the guy who was behind the assassination attempts from TPM is in league with dooku, no leads to palpy either. now, we are basically where we are anyway.

    he could havfe used maul later on cause if maul had the chance to train for those extra 10 yrs, hed have wasted dooku in combat, so maul for "aggressive negotiations", as ani and padme put it, and dooku for political negotiations.

    he needs dooku, and has had him for awhile now, to set up the clone opperation, cause palpy obviously cant do it himself.

    he also needs him to start the organization of the separatists, beginning with the trade federation. why? in order to make him and naboo seem like they need pity, and therefore, giving him the no confidence vote in valorum, and him bein placed as chancellor.

    dooku has been behind alot more of this then they are making obvious at first glance, and it would have to be him, cause maul would just kill the ppl involved:p, and palpy cant do it all by himself.

    he gets ani later cause, even if maul had lived through AOTC, then i imagine there would be a situation for ani to kill him in ROTS, but since i havent seen it yet(dur), then i cant be too sure about that.

    the unnamed soldier
  17. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    This is THE most interesting question of the PT. Maul was capable of everything Dooku is IMO. Sids did not want Maul to die and if if precedent rules (ROTJ) than we know Sids would not just kill Maul.

    Vader or Dooku would have to face him.

    To be the man ... etc.

    And just because we "respect" Dooku more as an "ex-jedi" or whatever or that he was played by a venerable actor --

    DON'T SHORTSHRIFT MAUL!

    If Tom Cruise, Tony Danza or Robert Deniro played Maul most of you would be second guessing your idea that Maul was not up to snuff.

    Bottom line - Maul's death was not envisioned and Dooku did a fine job pinch-hitting.
  18. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Maul may not of had the charisma, charm etc of Dooku, but if he hadn't died I think Sidious would have used someone like Tarkin in the role of leader of the Seperatists because I think he could pull it off (that would mean Anakin would kill him in Episode 3 though [face_thinking] ), and Maul could have been a sort of bodyguard for Tarkin. Maul dying wasn't good for Sidious because he invested a lot of time into him, but Sidious got lucky that such a powerful Jedi like Dooku left the Order.
  19. patico74 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    i dont think sid had a big plan to have maul die get a guy like dooku then seduce annikan i think he failed and reinvented new ways to get his revenge. the ultimate plans work but i dont think he actually plans for his apprentices to die.
  20. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    ''"All has proceeded as I have forseen it." - Emperor Palpatine, ROTJ

    I think Palpatine's plan has unfolded exactly as designed. Maul was expendable. He was deployed at that time to draw the attention of the Jedi away from what was actually going on - Palpatine manipulating events to become Supreme Chancellor. In fact, if Maul had lived, he might have inadvertently led the Jedi back to Palpidious. So Palps sent a minion who was blindly, violently aggressive assuring a lethal showdown with the Jedi concerned. Maul was not a threat the Jedi were going to be able to overlook.

    Notice that the Jedi were not with the Naboo contingent when Queen Amidala called for a vote of no confidence. Palpatine was.

    "Only now, at the end, do you begin to understand." - Emperor Palpatine, ROTJ ''

    I agree.
    Also remember the story arc of the Jedi's overconfidence. The death of Maul does nothing to dent the Jedi's confidence, as his survival would. Also maul + dooku = 2. The Jedi are, therefore, not looking for another Sith, giving more protection to Palps.
  21. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    The most interesting question is why did Dooku allow Anakin to live knowing that ultimately, Sidious would order Anakin to kill Dooku?
    As for everything else, everything we have heard so far from EP I,II,V & VI is that the dark side clouds the Jedi's future sight and the Emperor can see all. If it is that powerful, then Sidious must know that Maul, going into the battle, would die and that even Anakin would lose to Obi-Wan and become the enrgaed part-man part-machine Vader.
    My point is that I believe Sidious can forsee all events (even jar-jar voting for his emergency powers). Maul's death, Dooku's inevitable death and Anakin's horrible transformation have already been seen by the ultimate seer.
  22. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    kinda true, except Anakin isn't quite what Palps had wanted/forseen.
  23. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    (not meant to be sarcastic): Did Palpy want the young-impressionable, could be swayed back to the light Anakin or did he want the completely destroyed, lost all humanity half-machine, peed off at the world vader, by his side ?
  24. rbarcia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 2
    Palps did not even know who Anakin was until the end of TPM. He made some comment at the end, "We'll watch your future with great interest."

    However, Dooku does play an important role as the lead of the Separtist. Because he was a former "Well Known" Jedi, Palps will use that as a plot to get the Senate against the Jedi. I do not think he could have done this with Maul.

    If Maul had lived, Dooku would have probably still played his role and perhaps there would have been a Sith face off at sometime down the line. But Dooku had to be in that position in order to position the Jedi as traitors. I think Anakin really takes the place of Maul (A young apprentice) and he always planned to use and trash Dooku with his young apprentice. He has to kill Dooku because he is going to use his position to make the Jedi look bad. How can Dooku then come back and help rule.

    Maul was raised from youth. In a similar manner, Palps has had an influence on Anakin since he was young (this is obvious from the interactions). Palps did not have an influence on Dooku's early life.

    It makes me wonder how Palps ever thought that Luke would side with him. He spent much time preping and tricking (or raising) other apprentices and he tried to turn Luke the first time he met him. He must of been really cocky or just rusty on making good Jedi turn bad.
  25. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    Palpy thought that Luke, like his father, could be turned on the simple fact that Luke was 17yrs when he began training. He Knew that Luke saw the Empire(dark-side) versus the beaten down, hiding, old jedi (Yoda/Obi-Wan). Basically, The "devil" tried to trick Luke with power and prestigue. Not to mention Luke's impatience and longing for power (like his father). he also played on Luke's weakness for his father's redemption. Paply figured that either Luke would turn to the dark-side or be destroyed. When vader discovered Luke In Ep IV, Palpy became increasing disturbed at Vader's spark of humanity towards his son. he knew that somehow that would be his downfall. My question is why did palpy allow Luke to enter his chambers if he had forseen luke destroying him? You are right. he was very cocky
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