If Palpatine's plan went as designed....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DARTHCARDINUS, Dec 24, 2004.

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  1. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    ''Palps did not even know who Anakin was until the end of TPM. He made some comment at the end, "We'll watch your future with great interest." ''



    I am hoping he knew about Anakin before this.
  2. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    "I am hoping he knew about Anakin before this".

    I am sure that he was aware of "The chosen One". I believe that in ROTS, we will find out exactly how much he knew about "little Annie" and how much influence he had on Qui-Gon and Obi-Won picking him up from tattoine in TPM.
  3. rbarcia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 2
    I guess this is something we have to wait and see. I think he knew of the prophesy, but I do not think he knew who Anakin was before the PM.
  4. brooklynapprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2004
    star 3
    my2¢:

    None of Sids apprentices are "central" to his plan until the start of the Sepratist Movement. By virtue of the role Dooku plays in organizing the movement, it's hard to imagine that he is expendable once the ball gets rolling. However Sids could have contructed a different scenario, in which a Gunray or some other baddie plays the role that Dooku plays, with Maul and eventually Grievous as enforcer. Currently, Dooku has the added advantage of being both the front man and the scariest mofo on the block, as far as the separitists are concerned, but that's probably not essential. BTW, I totally disagree that Maul or anyone else in the Sith Circus could take Dooku. If there's one thing we're supposed to value in SW it's age and experience. Dooku is scary BECAUSE he's over the hill, not in spite of it. EU backs this up -- Dooku has no problem at all against Ventress, (Jedi Master) Quinlan Vos -- and he easily beats Obi, Anakin, holds his own against Yoda long enough to esape...

    However, there is one thing that is interesting. Dooku's hint to Obi-Wan about Sidous in AOTC might not have happened. This was, I assume, part of Sids plan, meant to sow seeds of suspicion and furthur pollute the relationship between the Jedi and the Senate. But the Jedi didn't need to believe it in order for the war to begin -- Dooku was clearly powerful enough by himself to be doing this alone, so the Jedi were able to sort-of ignore this hint. If Gunray or somebody had been running the show, with Maul as muscle... It's less credible...
    So had the same warning been delivered, the Jedi might have looked harder for Sidious. Or Sids might not have allowed them to find out at all.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."
    --George Lucas

    "And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted."
    --George Lucas


    Lucas is clear that Sidious didn't want Maul to die, as he had plans for him beyond Naboo. He had to improvise.
  6. DARTHCARDINUS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 1
    Bottom line i believe that why go to the trouble of bringing up some little hellraiser from birth just to throw all that hard work away only to take down one ageing Jedi. This was not forseen methinks...
  7. DARTH-BUTCHER Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2004
    star 1
    I think eberyone here underestimates maul's diplomatic skill's remember he was raised from birth by the galaxies smoothest and most deceptive person.

    A skill he would no doubtably have instilled in maul. just because we didnot get to see maul talk very much doesnt mean he wouldnt also dooku wasnt having the ideas he fed to the seperatists himself he was being told what to do.

    Finally maul had the fear factor going for him the seperatists would have had respect fear and a sense of power just from the way he looked.
  8. newdarthduffman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2004
    I read TPM novel and at the end it says sids senced the death of maul. it read what sids was thinkin and it was something like, maul was powerful, but not ready, to arogant (butchered) and that he needed a new aprentice.
  9. DARTHCARDINUS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 1
    so maybe the death of maul was sort of a blessing in disguise. "whew thankfully that wild gun is out of the way , he was freaky lookin"
  10. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    Some of you people think so highly of Darth Sidious you think it's impossible for him to make mistakes or have an opponent who is as powerful as he is (yoda) Some of you are just as "seduced" as Anakin is,


    *Sidious followers on TFN* [face_hypnotized] Yes master, you are all powerful and knew Maul would die because you planned it and you planned on having Dooku as your second apprentice and you also knew Anakin would kill him and you are so powerful that master yoda wont lay a glove on you [face_hypnotized]

    o_O Come on now, Maul dying was NOT part of the plan. If Sidious had it his way Maul would be here in ep.3 challenging Anakin for the role of Sith Apprentice.

    Luke hit the nail on the head in ROTJ, Sidious' weakness is his overconfidence.

    He thought too highly of his training abilities and that's why Maul is dead and he also thought too highly of his ability to seduce Anakin that's why HE HIMSELF is dead.
  11. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Those quotes from George Lucas tell us alot.

    Maul was not cannon fodder, and the driod army was suppose to win the war on Naboo not lose.

    What would have really screwed sidious plan was if Dooku died in his lightsabre battles in AOTC.

    No Sith apprentice, and no lighting rod for Anakin's anger in ROTS. And the clone wars dies in one battle as Yoda mentioned could happen if they could stop Dooku right there, but we know what happened.

    Did Sidious forsee Yoda picking up the clone army and bringing into the battle so soon?

    I doubt it. But his plans worked out anyway
  12. Darth_Pestelis Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2004
    IMO, Maul had what it took to be the diplomat that Dooku was. Had he not been killed, I'm sure that Sidious would have used both of them. That's what he does, uses people to get what he wants. This is how it would play out in my mind...

    *In TPM, Maul would have killed Qui-gon, but wouldn't have been sliced by Obi-wan. The only problem is if Obi-wan hadn't killed Maul, Maul would have killed Kenobi. Being that, that was what Maul's orders were and his character follows orders. But, buy some miricle that Maul and Obi-wan faught to a draw, Sidious would have probably began using Dooku, since he was a well know Jedi Master, to head the seperatists. But being a Sith, I have a feeling that Maul would have tried to lure Dooku away from Sidious and take him as his Sith aprentice after the two killed Palps. To tell the truth there are way to many possabilities to even come up with a definate explanation of what would have happened, personally I'm happy wit hthe way things are.
  13. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    BlueJedi33, if Dooku died in AOTC Sidious would have had to start completely over training a new sith apprentice from birth (which is what he should have done anyway after Maul) because Anakin was not secured as his future apprentice just yet.
  14. BillBrasky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2004
    star 2
    I think that Palps didn't want Maul to die becuase probably wanted two Sith working for him. That why we see Greivous, if Maul was alive, he would be the enforcer. Maul would be the one that slaughters all the Jedi Generals in the clone wars. In ATOC, Maul would get a rematch with Obi Wan, and the duel would probabL go like it does, with Yoda coming in at the end and him and Maul putting on the most amazing fight we've ever seen. Maul escapes with Dooku, and we get a real cool look at the sith lords together. In ROTS, the duel with Anakin and Dooku would also feature Maul, Anakin would kill both of them, and we would all get to see how scary powerful he really is when he is a Jedi.


    The Bottom Line is THE PREQUEL TRILOGY WOULD BE MUCH MUCH MORE COOLER WITH DARTH MAUL.
  15. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    I agree Darth Maul should have lasted until ROTS, then him and Darth Vader could have gone at it. fanboy dreams, lol
  16. Darth_Pestelis Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2004
    I think that Palps didn't want Maul to die becuase probably wanted two Sith working for him.

    That goes against the rule of two. There will always be two Sith, no more, no less. Unless one gets killed that is.

    EDIT: Spelling error.
  17. Unnamed_Soldier Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    im sry, but i ahvent read any super back in the day stuff about what happened before ep 1 and all that stuff, so could someone tell me why it always has to be 2, no more no less? why cant they just train like jedi and have a bunch of em? if this cant be explained on here, then someone plz pm me with it:p

    i still think maul wasnt intended to die, and that dooku has been workin with palpy since around the time of TPM, someone had to place the order for the clones, and i dont think maul/palpy could have done it.
    I think the kaminoans would know that maul wasnt a jedi, but a sith, an if it were palpy, thered have to have been an explanation of where he went and why he went alone to some place that no longer exists in the archives. after all, he was sentor back thn, an they dont go around without bodyguards. dooku would be free to do it all, cause 1) he was a jedi, and can still appear as one:p, 2) had access to the jedi files prolly up until around the point, so he goes and earses kamino, 3) since he just left the order shortly after erasing kamino,. then no one really knows/cares where he goes/went.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
    --George Lucas

    "At this point, Vader?s plan really, now that he knows he?s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they?re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn?t been debilitated and now he?s half machine and half man, so he?s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he?s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn?t. Luke is Vader?s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."
    --George Lucas

    "The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is nat half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. Thier are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."
    --George Lucas


    That's why there could only be two at a time.

    Maul would've done what Dooku did, while someone else might've handled the diplomatic stuff. Sidious via hologram or another.

    I doubt Maul would've fought Obi-wan to a stand still. He doesn't strike me as the type to do so. It would've been all or nothing.
  19. brooklynapprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2004
    star 3
    I find it almost impossible to imagine that Maul would be a challenge to Yoda, had the fight in AOTC been between them. Yoda is 900 years old. He must have fought people at least as deadly as Maul in that time. Plus, if you believe that a lightsaber battle is a contest of the force as much as a swordfight, whatever Mauls saber skills, he's can't even be in the same arena as Yoda in force knowledge.

  20. DARTHCARDINUS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 1
    i wish he had picked one and gone with it.
    Pick Maul and use him through the PT up until anakin has to dispose of him,

    or Dooku, if find either character could be intersting if given more room in the story
  21. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I agree.


    Maul would have been very powerful by the time of ROTS and it would have made for a much better showdown (IMO).

    Plus I think it would have made the story better if Anakin was the first "fallen jedi" on film, not Dooku.
  22. DarthDynomyte Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    I think everything has gone as planned for Palps. He continuously states "all is going as planned". Just as someone else stated he uses people to fullfil his design. He may not have known Anakin was the chosen one but he probably knew of the prophecy. He was likely biding his time with these other aprenticies until Ani showed up and was turned.
  23. All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    This was (slightly) explained during Dooku's scene with Obi-Wan in AOTC.

    After the Trade Federation lost in TPM, Sidious "betrayed" Nute and he then sought out Count Dooku for help. Dooku left the Jedi after he was dismayed by Qui-Gon's death. So, everything was born out of Darth Maul dying and the Trade Federation losing instead of being all a part of one pre-concieved plan by Palpatine.

    We see in TPM that it is Sidious and Maul controlling the Trade Federation, and they probably would have been controlling the war if Maul survived. Instead, Sidious pretended to back out and Dooku took over. Nute, at this point in the story, has no idea that Sidious is still controlling him.

    Certainly, Palpatine always had an end goal, but the events shaped his decisions as they unfolded. As the war ensues, Palpatine is putting the final pieces in place so that he can make his big move.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well, Maul would've gained in power over the next ten years, had he lived. That way, if he fought Yoda, he would've been a match for him with Lightsabers. As to Force powers, Maul probably wouldn't have wasted time trying show off his abilities with the Force. He would've just fought him outright.
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    After reading all of these posts I am reminded of the scene from TPM with Sidious and Maul on the balcony.
    Sids: "You have been well trained my apprentice. The jedi will be no match for you."

    The OS states that Maul was forged as a weapon by Sids, and that he devoted himself to combat and lightsaber training. (on his own built the double blade)

    With 10 more years under his belt he would have been the ultimate weapon.

    (if only he had been smart enough to kick Qui-Gon's lightsaber into the shaft as well...) Apparently he shared his Master's same flaw of overconfidence.

    Anakin vs. Maul would have been the ultimate duel based on light saber skills alone. (two level 9's goin at it!)

    Obi should have played the intergalactic lottery because he was (by far) the luckiest dunderhead I ever seen.

    but at least we can all blame Obi for ruining our "dream-duel"

    Isn't it Ironic that Vader slashed at him the same way he did Maul?

    edit: sp
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