If Palpatine's plan went as designed....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DARTHCARDINUS, Dec 24, 2004.

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  1. brooklynapprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2004
    star 3
    Sinister -
    I don't necessarily mean explicitly using force powers, as in the Dooku-Yoda lightening showdown. I just meant the general use of/immersion in the force that is part of any lightsaber duel.

    However, I am again skeptical that Maul could even then take Yoda in a straight-up lightsaber fight. I guess it all comes down to how 'over-the-hill' you think Yoda is. I recognize that he's old, but to me, his 800+ years of training and experience still seem like more of an asset than a hindrance, and I think the films bear this out. Maul might pick up a lot in the approx. 10 years that separate TPM from AOTC, but I think he'd be a toy for Yoda.

    I just get the very strong impression from the movies that we're supposed to think that age and experience are more important factors in ALL ASPECTS of a Jedi's life and combat than youth and sheer physical prowess.

    Yoda didn't seem the slightest bit hindered by his age when he battled Dooku, and all the signs in AOTC, ROTS and recent EU point to the older Masters being the most formidable of the Jedi in combat by far. If this weren't the case, you'd think you'd see a sort of "golden age" for Jedi in combat -- maybe mid-30s to mid-40s, when skill and strength are best balanced. But that's not the case -- it's the council members who are the total badasses. And everyone seems to regard Yoda as the most bad.

    Anyway, once again, I just point to the reductive logic of Obi's confrontations with Maul and with Dooku. If Padawan Obi-Wan is able to really give Maul a challenge, and then kill him, why would older, better Obi-Wan have a different experience with older, better Maul? I don't think we have any reason to believe that a mature Maul would represent a proportionately larger threat than young Maul. Dooku, on the other hand, is much older and more experienced and deadly. He is Maul's better, and he showed it by cleaning Obi-Wan's clock without breaking a sweat.

    And just as Dooku, by virtue of age and experience, is Maul's superior, so Yoda vis-a-vis Dooku, Maul or just about anyone else in the PT. With one exception, of course.
  2. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I really dont think Dooku was Maul's superior at all.

    Maul was on his way to being another Darth Sidious,

    Dooku was more of the "expendable asset" if you ask me.
    Maul was raised to carry on the sith lineage, Dooku was just somebody who was just convient because "he was there".

    Dooku stopping to "show off" to Yoda in AOTC would never have happened if Darth Maul was there in his place, or Could you really picture Darth Maul stopping at any point in a fight to "take a deep breath?" I dont think so. Although I can picture him running from Yoda ONLY if Sidious gave him orders to complete another mission (there's no reason to keep fighting someone you cant beat when you have other orders). Basically what I'm saying is that the lifelong use of the darkside would have made Maul a much more powerful sith lord than Dooku could have ever been.
  3. Olonemithys Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2004
    I think everyone is forgetting Yoda's discussion re: the Sith from TPM. Sith always come in pairs..."No more, no less". Therefore I don't believe there were any rookies warming the bench @ Maul's demise.

  4. DarthRotten Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas made a comment shortly after AOTC was released that Sidious was breaking one of the Sith rules by not training another apprentice from infancy like he had Maul. Sidious has shown that he is willing to do anything and everything that he must in order to be the Sith that finally overthrows the Republic and destroys the Jedi. Also, when AOTC was in the planning stages, Lucas had the Art Dept. designing both Sith Apprentices AND "charismatic separatists". The designs for the 2nd Sith apprentice went on to become Kit Fisto and Assaj Ventress, once Lee had signed on for whatever part Lucas had to offer. I'm sure Sidious had Dooku on his radar as a possible apprentice once he left the Jedi, and he would probably have approached him, tempted him with power and then pitted him against Maul to decide whom would be his apprentice. On the other hand, had Maul won this contest, Sidious would've found another charismatic but purely political figure to galvanize his manufactured separatist movement. Maul would've continued to work behind the scenes. I do think that it is obvious that once Anakin won the day at Naboo, Palpatine was watching him closely as another potential apprentice. What good is an OLD apprentice? Assaj made some very good points to Dooku about his expendability in Dark Rendezvous.
  5. KardarlSantesce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 4
    think of Dooku as an independent contractor. Working for the Sith, but not an official member. Although he did have a Sith name. I think he was just manipulated by Sidious because of his connections, or what he could do to help them.
  6. futuresithlord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2004
    I think what a lot of people are dont realize never has dooku has never declaired himself a sith not once. I think dooku was just a toll. palpy never planned for maul to get killed and was looking for someone he could mold completely. Dooku had his own agenda, and could never be a true sith lord
  7. KardarlSantesce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 4
    I agree, but why did he have a Sith name? Darth Tyranus
  8. Unnamed_Soldier Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    unless i completely missed it in the movie, or they call him it in a book somewhere, then they never say DARTH Tyranus.

    he is called Tyranus on 2 occasions in the movie if memory serves me well

    Jango to obiwan, "I was hired by a man named Tyranus"
    and
    Sidious to Dooku, "Welcome back, LoRD Tyranus"

    i think those are the only times:p
  9. KardarlSantesce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 4
    wouldn't that imply him as a Sith? Or do you think they just led him to believe he was one in order to use him for his resources...and later "take care of him" once his purpose was served
  10. brooklynapprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2004
    star 3
    "I really dont think Dooku was Maul's superior at all."

    "Maul was on his way to being another Darth Sidious."

    It's hard to say what Maul was on his way to. But whereever he was going, he met up with a very young Obi-Wan Kenobi on his way, and that was that.

    Count Dooku also met up with Obi-Wan. An older, more experienced and presumably more powerful Obi-Wan. And Dooku wiped the floor with him in moments. And Anakin, and held his own against Yoda long enough to escape.

    So how is it you come to the conclusion that Maul is in the same league as Dooku?

    A guy puts on a little facepaint and has some flashy lightsaber moves, and suddenly people think he's in the same league as a Jedi Master out of the old school. I'm sorry, but I think that if Maul was the young Prince of the Sith, Dooku was the much older, wiser and scarier Uncle who will easily take the throne for himself once the King is out of the way. Maul is Christopher to Dooku's Tony Soprano. Christopher may be a badass, but we all know who wears the pants in that relationship.
  11. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Don't underestimate Maul, who fought 2 Jedi at once one was a Jedi Master who he killed. Obi-wan although good was inexperienced, but he sure seemed to hold his own in the last phase of the battle.

    And remember Maul did not beat him with his lightsabre technique but with a force push, showing that he had force skills beyond the lightsabre, then he got cocky, and got sliced and diced.

    But one has to wonder would a ex-jedi always factor into Sidious plans, as this person could be used to further discontent with the Jedi.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Maul in TPM was still a ways off from being Sidious. Had he lived, he would've been as good as him.

    "We do reveal that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, he's a Sith Lord, and that he's in league with Darth Sidious and Darth Sidious is pulling all the strings and everything is going just the way he wants them to go. The Emperor continues to pull the strings."
    --George Lucas
  13. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    Well the reason I said Maul was on his way to being another Sidious is because Maul and Sidious are the only two "purely evil" beings that we see in the story, Vader and Tyrannus were once jedi so they dont seem like they have the kind of "evilness" that Sidious passed on to Maul since he probably raised him.
  14. ManoWan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2002
    star 4
    It is still an open question as to what Dooku's REAL motivation and ultimate goals are.

    He seems to be honestly sad that he has to order the death of Mace and the remaining Jedi.

    "..then I'm sorry old friend".

    In my opinion, Maul was not in the same league as Dooku. Maul was just that, an attack dog, not much of a strategist. Dooku was more wise.

    Once Anakin came on the scene though, you can make the argument that Sidious was looking to toss anyone for Anakin.

    2 cents.
  15. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    People think that about Maul because he never spoke.

    The only person we hear him talk to is Sidious, but Sidious is the "only person he knows", he has no reason to discuss anything with qui-gonn or obi-wan. Too many people assume he's not intelligent because he didnt talk, but he might have been just as intelligent as Dooku, we'll never know.
  16. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    This raises an interesting question:

    Why would dooku allow Anakin to survive, knowing that palpy's ultimate plan was to turn Anakin over. I don't think that Dooku was left in the dark about Anakin. Basically, dooku had to know at some point that the Palpy would kill him in one form or another.
  17. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    I think Maul served more of a purpose than in TPM. I never thought he would make it to ROTS, but I hated having so many throw away villains.

  18. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I'm sure ALL sith lords know that either their master will kill them or they will kill their master.

    I cant imagine any of them thinking they would live together forever.
    (remember Rick Astley? :p)
  19. KiAdiMundianToBachKe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2004
    star 1
    If Maul didn't die, than Palpatine would push him off the cliff.
  20. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    Ah yes. Rick Ashtley. Now that is true evil in it's purest form. Scary, that man was.
  21. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
  22. beetzello Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    Maul was the guy Sidious used to put a face on the Sith. Sidious knew once he had outted Maul on Tattooine and Naboo, that the Jedi would be all over Maul like gundark-flies on poodoo.

    So, secretly in the background, Sidious recruited Sifo-Dyas to carry out little known missions, like a trip or two to Kamino. Because Sifo-Dyas was once a Jedi, he still had friends on the Jedi Council, namely a Count named Dooku. Dooku, a stonger Jedi than Sifo-Dyas, was able to intuit the Sith dabblings of Sifo-Dyas. So, it was only natural that Dooku one day would ambush Sifo-Dyas after his final trip to Kamino and kill him.

    For Sidious, Maul was expendable. He knew if Maul had succeeded on Tattooine and Naboo by killing QGJ and OWK, that Sifo-Dyas would eventually kill Maul, thereby keeping the Rule of Two intact.

    Regardless, Sidious also knew that Sifo-Dyas was expendable. Since Sidious' grand plan revolved around galactic trade and the flow of money, he knew Dooku would ultimately be unable to resist any temptation of more riches offered by Sidious. Dooku was greedy enough to align himself with a Sith master, knowing full well the associated risks while chasing his lust for more riches. Heck, he knew all the clan leaders would do what he would say - they were past business associates of Dooku. In Dooku's mind, a successful Separatist mission would have been a feather in his cap, not to mention very profitable as well, for himself and his old business partners.

    It all makes sense. George Lucas is a smart guy.
  23. KiAdiMundianToBachKe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2004
    star 1
    A very large cliff. And dangerous, indeed.
  24. ManoWan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Dooku spared Anakin for Sidious. I really think Dooku did not want to kill Jedi unless he had too.

    But that's just my opinion.
  25. darthangelus7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2004
    star 2
    And your opinion is a good one. That would make the most sense. I understand that he had to take a little breather at some point. but he did hold back during the duel w/Anakin & Obi-Wan. however, was the near-death strike by dooku on Obi-Wan just part of the act or was Obi-Wan about to be sliced in two (like maul).
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