If Palpatine's plan went as designed....

"Just because hes an Emperor doesnt make him such a bad guy or a bad poltical system or even make him a bad ruler. Empires have worked in the past, and the most successful civilization ever the Roman Empire was ruled by Emperors"

one of the principals of civilization is that the leader follow the will of the people. yes in episode 3 the people willing give up their power to allow a dictatorship.

BUT...by the time of episode 4, palpatine no longer has the backing of the people. they want him, and his dictatorship gone. the fact that he will do anything to hold on to his power, resist the will of the people, and even go so far as killing them in masse, makes him evil.

 

I dont even think in Episode 4 was an all out revolution. From the movies one can assume that its a whole bunch of systems, but not the entire galaxy that was rebelling

 

most systems were to afraid of the empire to openly rebel, but many quietly supported the rebllion.

the alliance was mainly made up of people, not actual systems. this just goes to show how tyrannical the empire was. the systems were too afraid to dissent, even if they knew revolution was the only way to re-establish freedom.

"fear will keep the local systems in line"

 

Darth-Sinister, guess can't argue with that quoatation, still bugs me though, but hey, pt overall was very good.

 

I reckon that Palpatine was grooming Count Dooku during TPM. He may fo planed to replace Maul at some point with Dooku, getting Dooku to defeat Maul (notice how Maul is the only Sith apart from Vader not to have Sith Lightning) because Dooku has better training.

Then when Anakin came along, Palpatine was interested in what he could become, so after Dooku had fullfilled his use (to start the war, and help Palpatine's rise to power) He would sacrifice him to Anakin, and start his grooming.

Then with Anakin as Vader, Palpatine would wipe out the Jedi, rule the Galaxy and know that when he Passes on or is killed, an even more powerful Sith would continue his work.

 

I love these old topics...this is when we always had something good to talk about.

But anyway, while reading this one I thought about Lucas' decision to get rid of Maul.

Sinister I know you always pull up quotes, so do you have any explaining why Lucas decided to replace Maul with Dooku??

IMO ROTS should have had Darth Maul in it.

Can you imagine just how much more darker he would have made it??

 

This is one thing that I cant by, that everything that happened in the PT was planned. Im sure he didn plan half of the stuff that did happen, he was just a master addapter. The bigger scheme of it was but one message that Luacs is trying to get across in the PT is change, Palps was just really good at adapting to the situation. I dont think that he snet Maul there to die, he sent him there to kill the jedi and probably wasnt expecting him to get his but whooped by some padawan. Once Maul died, he just adapted and slightly changed his plan and then discovered Anakin. Im sure that If Maul survived and took Dookus place, that he and Anakin would eventually duel and it would be like what happened in ROTS, the best apprentice winning, ofcourse I think Palps only would have encouraged it if he knew that Anakin could do it.

 

Maul was put there to show how the legendary Obi-Wan Kenobi became a Jedi Knight/Master. Maul was the only aspect of where Palpatine failed. He was counting on Maul killing the ambassadors sent to deal with the Naboo crisis. He even told Maul that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon wouldn't be a match for him, and he was almost right, so in that I think Palpatine wanted to have Maul around for the long haul. But the thing is a Sith apprentice can be replaced and is the least of his concerns because Palpatine had important things that needed attending to.

 

I know Lucas has basically stated that Sidious didn't intend / plan for Maul to die, but to me it seems to be an inevitability.

Dooku was required for the Separatist movement - Maul would never be more than a warrior. I would consider it a requirement that he be more intimately involved with Sidious for this role as well (read: apprentice, you perverts). Also, I would think that Tyrannus commanded greater force powers than Maul ever would. It might be true that Maul's proficiency would eventually outstrip Tyrannus' (but it might not be) - but I would put my money on the inferior duellist with far greater powers every time.

So I guess that I would expect that Maul would have been replaced eventually. We know that Sidious was watching Anakin from day one - so the end was already determined for him. Lucas' quote denies this, but I think it's logical.

 

In AOTC DVD commentary Lucas basicaly states that due to Mual sudden death, he didn't have time to train another apprentice from his chilhood and that's why he looked for a grown one.
Furthermore the novel Labyrith of evil doesn't exactly support the "everything was planned" notion. I think it's clear that Dooku, the clone army and the separatist movement are things that were decided afterwards, once Palpatine was already the Chancellor

 

Oh I know - I just think it's one of those Lucas inconsistencies, at least he hasn't really been cornered into laying out exactly what he's conceived.

Haven't read Labyrinth of Evil - so I don't know anything about it, and I don't really go by the Expanded stuff anyway, even if Lucas has some guiding hand.

It seems to me though the Separatist Movement would have been an eventuality anyway wouldn't it? As it was, Sidious had many powerful economic factions on his side. Perhaps he didn't need a figurehead, but it seems to me that he would have eventually... and Maul was clearly not going to fit this role. And he was going to have to create the spectre of the 'Other' in order to gain his emergency powers and secure his grip on the bureaucracy.

 

Yeah I know Lucas says that Sidious adapted because of the death, but I want to know why Lucas himself decided to get rid of the Maul character.

Was it in the best interest of the story or was there some kind of contract dispute with Ray Park??

Kind of like with Terrance Stamp....I heard that he was supposed to return to start the Rebellion but him and Lucas had some kind of a disagreement.

I hate when stuff like that happens too.

It would have been cool to have "General Zod" start the Rebellion against Palpatine's order.






[image=http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10101000/10101814.jpg] VS.[image=http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/wayofstrife/SIDIOUS.jpg]

 

"Kneel before Zod"...

Oh, sorry, wrong movie.

 

Really? That is interesting... Valorum just sort of disappears, and that just sort of... sucks! We should have at least seen /heard about him being killed.

Perhaps there was a disagreement with Park too - I heard somewhere that he was charging people 10 quid for autographs or something, don't know if it's true.

I loved Maul, but Tyrannus worked too - I think you're right though that Lucas changes things for these reasons sometimes. I don't see how his plans could have succeeded without Dooku - we'd have a different story at the least.

 

Yeah, you'd have to ask somebody like Sinister for a quote or something because I dont have one, but I do know that Stamp was supposed to return and start the Rebellion, but he didnt like the story or wanted too much money or something like that.

But this is Hollywood...things dont always work out.

Especially if people think that they are so desperately needed that they can hold up the story just to squeeze out a few more bucks.

It's either that or Lucas is just extremely cheap.

Because Neeson didnt come back either. And from what I hear Chris Lee's part (as Dooku) was so short because he couldnt come to an agreement with Lucas, but who knows.


We really should start a thread called "If Lucas' plan went as designed....."

 

Terrence Stamp left because he had issues with how Lucas filmed his scenes. That doesn't mean that Valorum was supposed to be in AOTC or ROTS.

As to Ray Park, there was no contractual disputes. It was a simple matter of the fact that Lucas wanted to show how Palpatine adapted to situations as warrented. If Palpatine had this grand plan for taking over the galaxy, he would need an Apprentice. Enter Lord Maul. But a recurring theme that Lucas wanted to have was that Palpatine would always replace his Apprentices. So he worked it out that Obi-wan would kill Maul, thus putting Palpatine in a bind. He needs a new Apprentice. He sees great potential in Anakin, but cannot get his hands on him. And the plan must move ahead. So we must have Lord Tyranus now. This works because the Jedi aren't suspecting Dooku of being a traitor now. Much less a Sith Lord. Dooku also shows that a Jedi can be turned to the Dark Side, thus setting up Anakin turn.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

So we go from Dooku to Anakin, which then leads us to Luke in the OT. All these connections in the PT, help us to understand the power struggle of the OT. That way we can see the danger that Luke is in, as he has two Sith Lords trying to use him against the other. And though he doesn't want to kill his father, much less fight him, Palpatine will manipulate him into do it.

It also comes back to this.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

The Sith always want the best and brightest under their thumb. Maul was good, but it worked out that Tyranus was better than him. Vader was going to be even stronger than Tyranus, so the duel between them proved that. Now Vader is weak, but his son might become stronger and more powerful. That's why Maul was killed off and we never had a clear cut villian besides Palpatine.

 

I don't think that Maul's death put a cramp in Sidious' plans, it just delayed them for awhile. I believe that Maul wasn't long for this world irregardless of his victory/defeat on Naboo. If the Separatist Army was the next step in his plan to undermine the Republic, then Maul would have been a poor choice for it's charismatic leader. The impression I get is that, much like Anakin, Sids was grooming his next apprentice long before he lost his current one. It's just his style.

 

You know you and Sinister are confusing me, right, Roland?

 

[obi-wan]That's... why we're here.[/obi-wan]

 

Terrence Stamp left because he had issues with how Lucas filmed his scenes. That doesn't mean that Valorum was supposed to be in AOTC or ROTS.

Yeah but dont you remember hearing something about Vallorum starting the rebellion in an earlier draft of one of the movies??

 

Yes I do.....

On topic though.....I see no reason why Lord Maul could not have carried out his duties in AOTC and ROTS....

People are saying that Maul would never have been able to rally systems like Dooku......IMO people are forgetting that if Maul was successful in TPM that victory alone for the Seperatists would have been a far greater recruitment tool than Dooku.

Obi-Wan could have simply escaped or fell down that shaft and survived like Luke did in TESB....making Lord Maul temporarily think he was dead. This alternate move would have instantly built the tension for the next two films.....because IMO Maul looked pretty unbeatable in TPM in lightsaber combat. The fans would have had dream-matches buzzing for years....

Obi-Wan V Maul 2
Mace V Maul(personal fave)
Yoda V Maul
Anakin V Maul

All of that without even bringing Lord Sidious into the mix.
Sidious could have still recruited Dooku as back-up.....having him work "seemingly" along-side Lord Maul as a Clone Wars Commander.....thus eliminating Grevious.

This would still set the stage for Yoda V Dooku at the end of AOTC.....and its results would further drive the fans into a frenzy for ROTS Maul match-ups.

In ROTS

Anakin would take out Dooku the same as we see.....with Obi Wan face down
Sidious would send the Seperatists leaders to mustafar earlier in the film....with Maul "protecting" them
Obi-Wan would be sent by Palpatine via Anakin to check out a hunch on Maul's location that proved false
Yoda still leaves for Wookieworld
Sidious still comes out of the closet to Anakin
Mace still confronts Sidious
Anakin heads to mustafar to eliminate all evidence of the clone wars including Darth Maul
Kenobi catches on after talking to Yoda and heads for mustafar.....winning over a somewhat noticably tired Anakin from the massive Maul showdown.
Yoda still loses the close one to Sidious

no lose ends and IMO a lot exciting

 

Darth Maul was designed to be the one who was powerful enought o face off against the Jedi. If anyone has read Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter it tells the reader of Maul's desire to face off against and destroy the jedi, when the time comes. Mauls death was the first setback to Palpatines plans. Luckily for him, he encountered a young, naive Jedi, considered to be the msot pwoerful ever, that he could construct his plans around.

 

Man that would be cool.

Especially the part about the Maul/Vader showdown.

But I think that people seem to think that Maul was stupid because he didnt talk that much...I dont think this is true.

To be honest with you, I dont think any force user can be "stupid"....that's an oxymoron.

 

It's supposed that Palpatine didn't plan the creation of the clone army. He knew about it when it was already in procces, and decided to take it for his advantage. The same way it was Dooku who seeked Sidious, and knowing this he allowed Dooku to find him and seduced him to the dark side.
For all these reasons I believe that the separatist movement was not already planned, but Palpatine saw the chance due to Dooku's political abilities and mainly due to the clone army that could be used to kill the Jedi

 

Palpatine's plan was to gain his power in the senate as usual and have Maul rally the seperatist cause. He would find a way to create a clone army to start the war as usual.

It was down to Sidious that Dooku created the army - he didnt just take over it. Apparantly Sifo Dyas had inquired but he hadnt made any formal arrangements. Sidious had Dooku kill Sifo Dyas and then he told Dooku about the idea of a clone army, got Dooku to erase the kamino files in the archives and then Dooku ordered the clones. Under the name of Tyrannus he recruited Jango Fett.

Sidious would have found a way to meet his goals. In the end things actually worked out better. Dooku was a better apprentice than Maul in the sense he lead the Seperatists far better, was a suitable match for any Jedi and could create confusion about what was going on in the Jedi's eyes. And in the end he would be taking on Anakin so it was all relative.