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PT If Qui-Gon Survived...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ObiWanKnowsMe, Jan 27, 2016.

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If Qui-Gon survived, would Anakin have been seduced by Darth Sidious?

  1. No, Qui-Gon would have stopped that from occurring.

    44.0%
  2. Yes, eventually it would've been Anakin's fate.

    56.0%
  1. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    This is hypothetical but if Qui-Gon survived I assume that Anakin would've never became Sidious' apprentice. Based on the short time that we saw them together, Qui-Gon went to bat for Anakin and was the only one who believed in him. There was an obvious connection there and Anakin would've probably began to look at Qui-Gon as a father figure(as he did Obi-Wan). Qui-Gon was more trusting in Anakin and even Anakin began to develop his own code and did things his own way like Qui-Gon did. Anyone else agree that had QGJ not been killed by Maul, Anakin would've went on to become a great Jedi Master? Heck, there was a blatant chemistry between QGJ and Shmi while they were on Tatooine. I'd be willing to bet QGJ and Anakin would've made a secret trip out to rescue his mother from slavery. Thoughts?

    [​IMG]
    (of course there was plot armor that was the inevitable fate of Anakin becoming Vader. This is just a "what if".)
     
  2. Defensor

    Defensor Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2015
    Hypotheticals like this one are difficult to measure with precision, but let's give it a shot: no, I don't think Qui-Gon being alive alters all that much the Fall of the Republic. This is due to the following possibilities:

    (a) Anakin was too old to begin training, and had already come to know attachment in his mother. Even if being raised by Qui-Gon happened to prevent Anakin from seeking comfort in Padme, I believe he would nonetheless have grown attached to someone else. Perhaps even Qui-Gon, his father figure. Palpatine would then still use his attachments to manipulate him into turning against the Jedi Council, which would have been facilitated by Qui-Gon's rift with the Council.

    (b) Even if Anakin grew up to be an exemplary Jedi Knight, and resolved his issues of attachment, the Republic probably still falls, as Palpatine doesn't need Anakin for any step of his plan. Qui-Gon and Anakin would have been executed in Order 66, and Palpatine would rule forever.

    (c) The best shot of Qui-Gon surviving altering the outcome is if Count Dooku fell to the Dark Side due to his padawan's death. If this is the case, as some have speculated in the past, then Qui-Gon surviving means that Dooku remains good. Then there's no one to spearhead the CIS or amass 10,000 systems under the Separatist cause. Nevertheless, I think Sidious would have found someone else for the job, and the plan goes all the same.

    (d) The Council retains its decision and does not allow Anakin to be trained. It is possible that in this case Qui-Gon leaves the Order and begins training Anakin outside the Order, in the Outer Rim. It is also possible that Anakin survives Order 66, but then it is unlikely that he would ever be able to get the Emperor by surprise as he did in ROTJ.

    In other words, though I love Qui-gon, I think it was the will of the Force that he died in TPM. His death leads to Anakin being trained in the Order, which leads to his fall. But it also leads him to fulfill his destiny in the end, destroying the Sith.

    Of course, this is just my opinion. I look forward to hearing other takes on it.
     
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  3. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    Defensor , A and B are some excellent points I never even considered. It was definitely the will of the force that Qui-Gon died.
     
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  4. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    I think in all likelihood, had Qui-Gonn survived the events of TPM... he was still going to end up dead sooner or later regardless. Possibly giving Anakin some time to form a bond/attachment with a father figure, maybe as soon as Qui-Gonn and his new pupil are out of reach of the Council for added shock and to emphasise Anakin's loneliness but one way or another Palpatine's going to have Qui-Gonn shuffle off the mortal coil.
     
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  5. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Yes, Anakin will feel more comfortable to see that he is not alone in 'being different' in the Jedi Order. He will learn to be patient faster than with Obi Wan and yes, he would be happier. But I don't think that in this case Anakin wouldn't fall in love with Padme, all the opposite, he will. But yes, in this case Anakin could confess his nightmares to Qui Gon and yes, Qui Gon could understand. I don't know if they could rescue Shmi. Because Qui Gon always followed the direct orders of the Council and generally this means to go to distant parts of the Galaxy where a Jedi is needed. .so I don't know if they could have the chance to go back to Tatooine in these 10 years...
     
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  6. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Things would be a lot different had Qui-Gon survived. A lot. Notice that after Shmi dies, Padme fills that mothering role for Anakin. That plays later into his affection for her. Honestly, putting aside the Freudian elements, that's not too bad because Padme is probably a good influence on Anakin. What about the fathering role though?

    Back to Qui-Gon. Notice that after he dies, Palpatine fills that fathering role for Anakin. That's decidedly much worse of an influence for Anakin in the long run. Even though Palpatine is very supportive on the surface, he's actually very manipulative and just uses Anakin for his own purposes to screw everything up later. If Qui-Gon doesn't die, Anakin doesn't have that hole to fill in his life for a father. Palpatine can't really use that to his advantage. Not only that, but having that father 'hole' filled might make Anakin put less pressure on Padme too, because at least he won't have lost two (surrogate) parents at the same time. With Qui-Gon alive, Anakin has a steady hand he can reach out to. Obi-Wan takes on the role of perhaps a brother, and Anakin and Obi-Wan don't have to have the tense father-son relationship that could never work between them. They function better as brothers. Qui-Gon is someone who would understand Anakin, and I could see Qui-Gon going out of his way to take Anakin on missions to the Outer Rim to maybe visit his mother. I think a lot of things might have been different. With Qui-Gon alive, Obi-Wan as brother, Padme still there, and no ties to Palpatine, it's not a perfect situation by any means but it's much better than what actually happens. I think if Qui-Gon survives, Anakin definitely has a chance of not falling to the dark side.
     
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  7. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    This is how I viewed things. I understand the valid points made against what I think but Qui-Gon was too wise and could evaluate if Anakin was going down the wrong path. I still believe had QGJ not been killed, Anakin would've never turned to the dark side myself
     
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  8. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    I really feel you on that. I think that lends itself to the whole tragedy of the prequels. You see things happen and you realize in hindsight how important they are. I love this saga! :) Also, I think Qui-Gon knew just how important his presence was to a unique case like Anakin. He even goes to the lengths of saying he will train him, even without the Council's approval (and what a great confidence boost for a child who just left his mother! I nominate Qui-Gon for strong father of the year award, aha.). Surely Qui-Gon knows that by doing this and taking a stand for Anakin, he is risking ex-communication by the Jedi. They don't get rid of him, but they tell him to settle this later after the Naboo situation. Since Qui-Gon's not around for that, he passes this onto Obi-Wan who takes on the 'train-Anakin' mantle. This evidently led to fervent debate in the Council. Yoda seems to have disagreed with the choice to allow Anakin. I would suspect Mace agrees as well with Yoda. However the rest of the Council must have been alright with it because it's approved. Maybe they didn't want to lose Obi-Wan? Maybe they wanted to honor Qui-Gon's wishes? Whatever it was, they went along with it. And it certainly wasn't a hopeless situation with Obi-Wan as master. But it definitely was not nearly as ideal as Qui-Gon being master of Anakin. And I think Qui-Gon, and even eventually Obi-Wan, knew that.
     
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  9. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Qui Gon living would have changed a few events. Anikan would have had a lot of struggles still. That doesn't change anything. However, the way he would have dealt with things very differently. For instance, if Ani had told QGJ about his dreams in AOTC, he would have talked with with him, consult him, show him compassion and possibly find a way to see his mother again instead of being absent from her.

    I don't think that Qui-Gon would have done everything for Ani, but I get the feeling that he would help Anikan emotionally in many ways where he was struggling.
     
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  10. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    I think there was just so much going on, along with honoring Qui-Gon's wishes- that they decided to go with it and allow him to be trained.
     
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  11. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    I think we can all agree QGJ would've been a better Master for Anakin. Not that obi-wan did a terrible job because I know he genuinely cared about Anakin and tried, but Qui-Gon always understood Anakin more
     
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  12. Davak24

    Davak24 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 15, 2015
    I always thought Qui-Gon saw the future when he was meditating during the short break in his duel with Maul.
     
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  13. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016

    But, having the father figure (Palpatine) Anakin still is in love with Padme and desperately, since he was 10 ;) So, I don't think that the father figure could has some impact on his love. One user said something very appropriate in IMDB: Anakin is emotionally normal. That's why he is so different to the other Jedi. He had hard childhood as a slave but he has exceptional and beloved mother. So, despite of his hard life he is emotional, sensitive, good. And it is normal to fall in love, after all. ;)
    We don't know why Qui Gon is what he is, but we see clearly that he is still compassioned and interested to the feelings of the others. Remember his touching gesture to Shmi when Anakin has to go with him. He knows that she is suffering. Obi Wan is a great Jedi, I would say he is the ultimate Jedi and that's why he is more reserved and more rational. But this rationality makes him look colder than Qui Gon. So this sensitivity of Qui Gon makes him more normal (in the way mentioned above) and he will understand Anakin better, I would say even his feelings for Padme. Yes, maybe in this case Qui Gon could diminish the impact of Palpatine over Anakin but I don’t know if he could save him from the falling. Well, he tried, before the massacre of the Tuskens, we can hear his voice, but Anakin couldn’t hear him because of his anger and desperation.
     
  14. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Having a father figure doesn't impact falling in love. I wasn't saying that the lack of any father figure factored into Anakin's love of Padme -- the transference to her was already beginning when Anakin was on the same ship as Qui-Gon. I just mean he probably would have been a lot less emotionally bottled up inside [which put a lot of pressure on Padme to be his only confidant] if he had had a Jedi like Qui-Gon who could really help him. Plus, as I said, the factors with Obi-Wan in a different relationship dynamic with Anakin would fit much nicer. It would all be improved. Certainly Palpatine was not a good influence on Anakin in the end. He was constantly sewing Anakin's distrust of the Jedi, constantly fueling Anakin's ego. Qui-Gon would have been a more balanced support. I don't think Anakin was fated to fall to the dark side -- in fact I would argue the whole thrust of the series is against that reading. 'Star Wars' is about the importance of moral choices, especially during difficult situations, and also how our environment can affect us. To say he was going to fall no matter what happened would undermine all of that resonance. So, I think he fell for very specific reasons, and if some of those reasons changed, like Qui-Gon being alive, he might not have fallen. I think the chances are better. Like I said, in regards to Anakin and Padme's relationship, well, the situation with Qui-Gon alive may not have been perfect but it would have been improved. And maybe improved enough to help Anakin with his emotional issues to the point where he didn't go to the dark side in the end. I really think it would have made a difference, especially considering the reasons why he came back to the light in ROTJ.
     
  15. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    That was always such an amazing touch they put into AOTC where you can hear Qui-Gon's voice for just a second. I remember sitting in theaters and wondering if I really just heard Qui-Gon's voice, lol. I believe Qui-Gon could help Anakin with his love for Padme and maybe even allow him to break the rules and be with her secretly
     
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  16. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    he probably was. he knew that Darth Maul was just the beginning more than likely
     
  17. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 1, 2014
    Anakin may have better training with Qui-Gon, but he still will fall in love with Padme, and fear the death of others. If Yoda could not calm him about this, Qui-Gon wouldn't have either. He and Padme very well could've had a secret marriage again under the nose of Qui-Gon. Exposing that would've only expelled him. There are other ways to get at Anakin besides Padme.

    Even if not Sidious would've always have found another apprentice to take on the dark side with. Anakin and General Qui-Gon would've been out on the field of battle like any other Jedi and apprentice during the Clone Wars, and eventually gunned down during Order 66 or died in the attempt to avoid detection from the Empire. They do not have a happy ending either way.
     
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  18. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    That's true, it'd be hard to find a happy ending no matter what but all though Yoda is wiser than Qui-Gon, QG was more understanding of Anakin
     
  19. Thomo93

    Thomo93 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2015
    You know, Qui Gon technically isn't actually dead. He still lives on in as a force spirit & he was actually the first known being to be able to learn & achieve this immortality ability. He then passed the ability teachings onto Yoda & then Yoda begins to pass it onto Obi Wan (Mentioned in ROTS). Thus, Making them all live forever bassically, in the cosmic force. Only reason why Qui Gon can't be seen (Physically) as a force ghost, is because he was unable to complete his training in this ability, prior to his (Physical Living Force) death by Darth Maul. However, he was able to appear & be seen on Mortis in Season 3 of TCW to Obi Wan. But he then stated that he was only able to do so, because the force was so abnormally strong on Mortis.
    But I do see what you mean & I do believe maybe a few events would have changed if Qui Gon did (Physically) live on. But the Jedi Council hardly ever listened to Qui Gon's opinions on things so I'm not sure what if would have been like. Know one will ever know unfortunately lol
     
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  20. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    I remember that episode where he appeared on Mortis and I always found it interesting how he called out to Anakin in Episode 2 when he was killing Tusken Raiders. He still wanted to help but just couldnt without actually being in physical form as a Master
     
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  21. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    Interesting approach. Generally I think the existence of Qui Gon was very necessary exactly because Lucas shows us the Jedi as they should be and as they think they should be (Obi Wan, Yoda, Mace). If there were more Jedi like Qui Gon, the falling of the Jedi Order wouldn't happen and they could prevent the rising of the Empire, maybe. But all this is hypothetical, of course.
     
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  22. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    I believe that if more Jedi were like Qui-Gon and didnt have such a strict code in many areas, the Jedi Order and the Republic wouldve never fallen. Some of the rules of the Jedi were just extremely stupid and illogical.
     
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  23. Madara Uchiha

    Madara Uchiha Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2016
    He would be Anakin's Jedi master. He would later fight Darth Vade ron Mustafar and go into hiding. He wouldn't be able to teach Yoda on how to become one with the Force. And Yoda would be dead without a Force Ghost. We wouldn't see him at the end of Return of The Jedi. That's what would happen if Qui-Gon survived.
     
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  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, Qui-Gon wouldn't feed Anakin's attachment.
     
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  25. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    I'm saying it is possible. I interpreted that there was a slight attraction between Qui-Gon and Shmi on Tatooine.