If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    .........Flawed, and arrogant, and rigid, and inflexible. as stated by the man himself Lucas.

    Why can hardly anybody accept it?. is it denial ?. is it really so hard to see your Hero's as Human ? , and sometimes flawed? . Good, and Bad are not always black and White. so why are people afraid to accept the truth............................................................................................THE JEDI MADE MISTAKES.
  2. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    You got my vote!

    Drawn into the mistakes of the Republic, the Jedi had been. But knowingly and sometimes with full complicity. Allowed the dark side to take root, the Jedi had. Allowed arrogance to infect the Order, the Jedi had. A priority holding on to power had become. Inflated by their own conquests, the Jedi became.
  3. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    this truth: That he the Avatar of light , Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the Fiercest , most implacable , most devastatingly powerful foe the Darkness had ever known...
    Just-
    did'nt -
    have it.
    he never had it. he had lost before he started.The Sith had changed. the Sith had grown, had adapted. had invested a thousand years intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force, but Jedi lore itself.in preparation for exactly this day.the Sith had remade themselves. they had become new.
    while the Jedi ,
    the jedi had spent the same millenium training to refight the last war.


    that sounds like a mistake to me.

    " Those who do not learn from History , are condemned to repeat it ".
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    In terms of the Jedi flaws I tend to go with the opinions of Stover and Luceno in the ROTS Novel and LOE. For me, they sum up the mistakes and flaws of the Jedi:

    ROTS NOVEL Quote #1:

    "Too old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago?but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not?because let it change, I did not."

    Quote #2:

    We should split them up," Obi-Wan said. "Even if the Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy. Master Yoda, and you take the girl. We can hide them away, keep them safe? train them as Anakin should have been trained?"

    "No." The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin on his hands that were folded over the head of his stick.

    Obi-Wan looked uncertain. "But how are they to learn the self-discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?"

    "Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn."

    LOE Quote:

    Drawn into the mistakes of the Republic, the Jedi had been. But knowingly and sometimes with full complicity. Allowed the dark side to take root, the Jedi had. Allowed arrogance to infect the Order, the Jedi had. A priority holding on to power had become. Inflated by their own conquests, the Jedi became.

    There are many more statements lik these in the novels which I agree with fully. EU isnt Star Wars canon of course, especially when it comes to events. But I would say that the opinions of the authors can be a good guide for fans as these people have spent time with GL and anlysed the Star Wars films and characters in a more professional way one might say.

    -----signature-----
  5. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    I'm trying to understand the Topic. Seems to me you're restating the whole point of the PT.
  6. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    no , just asking why so few people can still be in denial about the Jedi's role in the ascention of the Empire. some people think they are flawless, and perfect . and Lucas is showing us they are not.

    That is the point of the PT , along with Anakin's fall. right?
  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The thing is Rolando, I think this topic is relevant in terms of many of the threads on this very board. The failure to see the flaws of the jedi, however big or small you think they are, means that you may never see the bigger picture of the many things we discuss about ROTS and the entire Saga.

    I think its would be good to state what these flaws were, how they effected the jedi in ROTS, what part they played in their downfall and what changed because of them.
  8. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I think this thread is a reaction to a lot of comments in the other threads that seem to imply, or flat-out state that the Jedi are not culpable for the fall of the Republic. It's all Anakin's fault, or Sidious' fault, but the Jedi were simply good guys who didn't make any mistakes.
  9. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    I think it's just a result of having seen the trilogies in reverse order. I think if we had started with the PT then the Jedi would be viewed in a very different light. As it is, we grew up wanting to be Luke and Obi-wan (Jedi), not Anakin.

    The next generation of SW fans who see things in order will probably have a different POV IMO.
  10. Katty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2005
    star 1
    I guess you have a point. The Jedi were just human.


    Or whatever else they were lol
  11. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I think it's just a result of having seen the trilogies in reverse order. I think if we had started with the PT then the Jedi would be viewed in a very different light. As it is, we grew up wanting to be Luke and Obi-wan (Jedi), not Anakin.

    The next generation of SW fans who see things in order will probably have a different POV IMO.


    Hear! Hear!

    I already see it in my 7 year old son. He's all about the Anakin and the Jango
    whereas growing up, I was all about the Luke and the Boba.

    It's good, though, yes? To give different things to different generations.
    To share a common experience, yet walk away with different perceptions.
  12. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    i was really making a point about the posters HERE, who under no circumstance will admit fault at all. they will even often come up with Outrageous theories to try and support the opposite . that the Jedi made no errors. if GL say's that they did , and i believe he was trying to show that in the PT. then some people need to try to accept it. otherwise they are not getting the Full picture , and are really shorting themselves on the experience.
  13. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, very cool. What's great about Star Wars spanning such a time in the making is that fathers and sons, or uncles and nephews in my case, actually have something in common. And I think it will be very neat to see how their view of things translates over time... especially about Vader. To us, he's a bad ***. To them, some of this aura will kinda be shot IMO.



    EDIT: And yeah, I was talking about the posters here with the opening statement I made. I really think it's a byproduct of that and it's going to evolve over time.
  14. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    From day 1 I've said that the Jedi were flawed.....all I've ever debated here was that people needed to stop passing ALL of the Jedi mistakes onto Mace's back alone.....and that Anakin needs to have some accountability for his own actions.
  15. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    Thats all I want too C76. See, I believe thats sidious was the only villian capable of capitalizing on the Jedis flaws. There wasn't a foe in a thousand generations that could destroy the Order.
    Still, while I think its an absolutely relevant plot point....I also don't overlook Anakin and Sidious's role in things. The Jedi weren't corrupt...they still had the best intentions of the Galaxy in mind. If the Emperors idea of peace is to make people agree and if they don't, obliterate them with superweapons...then hell...I'll take the "arrogant" Jedi order anyday.
    People always try to tell me to understand Anakins motives...O.K....I say look at the Jedis....why shouldn't they be confident?
    To ME the Jedi's mistakes are forgivable. Anakins aren't. I think I end up in arguments when people try to take it too far and say the Jedi are the "villians" of the saga.
    C76 is right....I grew up with the OT. To me being A Jedi was supposed to be a noble thing.
    No...I don't believe the Jedi DIDN'T screw up. I realize they did. They became complacent...O.K...that gets the villians off the hook?
    I said it before in another thread....does the fact the U.S. has become arrogant and complacent mean we deserved to have the trade center destroyed by terrorists? Does the fact they thought we were wrong excuse them for killing people? Is it really our fault because we were confident we would never be attacked on our turf?

    I don't know why some people are so fascinated with making sure we all know the Jedi screwed up. O.K. point taken....but what does that mean? What is the motive behind this? Am I supposed to watch the trilogy from the Jedi are stupid,arrogant, and complacent POV?
    Maybe I'll give it a try...but I guarantee I won't see them doing the evil deeds they have been accused of on these forums. As Shaitan likes to say...I guess I won't be seein the bigger picture....buts thats O.K. ALL the PT is to me is an explanation of how one man screwed the galaxy...and that makes it sooooo much sweeter when he gets his in ROTJ. Sue me.
  16. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I don't know why some people are so fascinated with making sure we all know the Jedi screwed up. O.K. point taken....but what does that mean? What is the motive behind this? Am I supposed to watch the trilogy from the Jedi are stupid,arrogant, and complacent POV?


    Guys I totally understand your points. completely. and i also respect it. and this thread is my answer to the flipside. the people who will not entertain the idea that there were errors in judgement and actions. by the Jedi. cause it's very clear what the baddies did. but some people still think it's black and white. good and bad certainly is. but this movie is full of grey. and this thread does not and was never intended to excuse anything by Palps and little Ani :) . they are the real villains. and that needs to be remembered.
    but others were culpable and played a role. that's all. as i said i think for some it s too much to see what they have believed for so many years have a different slant/angle to it. Lucas did have a puropse and a message in showing us this. and to not see it is to only get part of the picture/message. and you can and should still believe in the good guys. but even good people cause bad things to happen. it's human nature.even though all jedi are not neccessarily human . :p but you get the point.
  17. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    Amen, brother Reasen! As a fan from '77 on, I too see the Jedi as being noble. I can admit that the Order was flawed in the time before the Empire, but their flaws were internal and did not detract from their positions as guardians of peace and justice in the wider galaxy. Were they flawed, mortal beings? Sure. Were they succeptible to the same mistakes many others make? Absolutely. Nevertheless, they were HEROES. They were the paragons of courage, strength and virtue in an otherwise crumbling Republic.

    The Jedi may have lost the "true path" (if such a thing exists), but that does not grant a carte blanche pardon for the heinous acts committed by the villains of the story. Anakin, particularly, should be held accountable for significant acts of treachery and murder. The Jedi were the last bright lights in a darkening galaxy, and Sidious, along with Vader, snuffed them one by one, leaving the countless inhabitants of the Republic to face a harrowing period of strife, tyranny and unrelenting fear.

    In Obi Wan and Luke we see the Jedi at their purest, most noble form. They are selfless and completely given over to the Will of the Force. They are to be heralded as the heroes they were, and not tossed aside merely because they, as everyone else, had some failings.

  18. obi1andreasen79 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2005
    star 4
    I hear ya Duggy. The Jedi aren't perfect.
    To me...it's like Jesus joining the devil and burning down the church. I like the things they stand for man....and Palps and Anni p*ssed all over them.
    I get more hot about the betrayal than I do about the Jedis mistakes.
    Tell me you didn't feel a pang of disgust and sadness when you watched the Jedi die in order 66. They were out there fighting for freedom and peace...and they died for it. Shot in the back.......


    Like I said...I don't ignore the flaws...I just don't dwell on them. Compared to the evil palps unleashes...they are forgivable....to me anyway.



    WELL SAID JEDI PRIME!!

  19. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    And they paid for their failings. They went through a "cleansing period" to put it mildly. The Order, or I should say "code" wasn't in itself flawed IMO. Rather, it was the way some of the elders disregarded the code and let pride get the better of them. But as was said, Ani and Sids don't get a pass for that.
  20. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    just a reminder jedi_prime^^^ i never intended to pin blame soley on Jedi. just for the record. my last post verifies that. and i'd prefer not to have to keep explaining that. the first post is Quite clear. and i have been with SW since 77 too. i saw them all in the theatre.first run. :)
  21. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Geeezzz... you guys are OLD :p
  22. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    i don't look it though. i still get I.D'd at bars. [face_dancing]
  23. CloudofSulfur Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2004
    star 3
    Then a thread apeared that opened the eyes of so many wayward posters.....
    And there was much rejoicing....
    Yaaaaaaaay....
  24. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Oh god, I'm so babyfaced. It sux. Ok, i'll shut up now
  25. Drac39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    The Jedi were very flawed and were not prepared and were thus (the next best thing to) destroyed
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