If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Ah, a group of freedom fighters that liberate the galaxy, like say, the rebel alliance.

 

That's not what it is. Every Jedi has a say, but it is the Council that decides what actions to take. Every Jedi has compassion. But it compassion without attachment.

It is still compassion. Obi-wan chooses not to think of himself and just abandon his promise. He thinks of Qui-gon and Anakin. One has asked him to do this and one is in need of a teacher, especially if the Council still says no.

There is nothing to act on in AOTC. As Obi-wan sees them, they are dreams. Acknowledging them is compassionate.

Again, he is not thinking of himself. He is thinking about Anakin, Padme and the Council.

No, he would not. Even Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker would agree with this one.

It is not cold. It is not callous. It is the point, because Anakin does what he does because of his emotions. His emotions and his greed turn him evil. Yoda warned him and the boy paid for not listening.

Yoda senses turmoil and goes to see what's what.

It's up to Anakin to let go of his fears and his worries. Yoda cannot do it for him. That's why he says "Train yourself to let go of all that you fear to lose."

When he reassures Anakin that Padme was happy to see him. When he tells Anakin that he is far wiser than he is. That it will not be long before his is Master. When he tells Anakin to go ahead and meet his public, which he knows that the boy is anxious to do.

Not as compassionate as he should be. More and more he does selfish things which turns him to the Dark Side. What he does that's wrong far outweigh what he does that's correctly.

That's what it boils down to. If he followed the Code as he should, he would've been the greatest of all Jedi.

The Jedi know how to love. That's why they're not psychos killing people for their own selfish gain. Anakin failed to learn about the difference between compassion and passion. That is why he fails.

In AOTC, he did. In ROTS, he doesn't. Why? Anakin's anger and hate, along with his inability to be objective. Anakin has fostered this mistrust based on his actions in the Council.

First, they're not sure what it really means. Second, Anakin's actions sound like who might not be the Chosen One. He's acting more like a Sith than a Jedi.

We don't know what everyone else thinks. But they are uncertain based on his piss poor attitude. Mace is worried that Anakin won

 

darth_frared posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hm, so free thought and obedience at the same time? sounds like you can only have one of those.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's called balance. You cannot have one without the other.

it's called inconsistency. obedience is doing as you're told without applying your own views, which is what free thought is.

You do know that there are rules in all things and that if you break a rule, you're punished.

rules are there, sure. and they are there for a reason, also.
what you seem to miss on, devastatingly, is that just because it's a rule, doesn't mean it has to be this way forever.
that is the concept of change.
we follow this through until we change it. and that is beyond the PT jedi.
they have lived by their code or by *something* for ages and they have stopped questioning it. they no longer ask themselves if it is still applicable in times of crisis, if it should still be held up, if marriage truly does lead to the dark side, as you have me to believe.
wisdom is wonderful, but you have to question it. otherwise you end up being a pawn.
we have minds to use them, not to have other people make decisions for us on the grounds that these things have been this way for time immemorial.
it's not gonna cut it.

If he really didn't like the Jedi's rules, he could've walked out at any time. 19 Jedi have left on their own accord, because they no longer agreed with the Jedi life. One left to become a Sith.

thank you for confirming time and again that the only alternative to changing the rules is leave. that is not adapting. that's being restrictive and autocratic. and inflexible and arrogant. it's saying, if you aren't like we want you to be, then you 1) will be punished for it and 2) we will not love you anymore - in broadest terms.

it's the biggie: the jedi have no tolerance for difference.

 

Well, yes. Luke didn't do it alone you know.

That's what Lucas was trying to show w/ the Ewoks - even technologically disadvantaged people fighting desperately for a cause they fervently believe in can overcome greater might (see American Revolution and too many others too count.)

And the Rebels would have had a much greater chance against a government not so well entrenched.

 

thank you for confirming time and again that the only alternative to changing the rules is leave.
so what rules do you suggest they change?

 

A Jedi must obey the laws and rules of organizations. When a Jedi serves as a guardian of peace and justice, they do so without putting their views into a situation. Meaning a Jedi does not tell anyone who to run their planet or run a war. They offer support, negotation and peace. Within their own structure, the Padawan is the Learner. They must follow the lead of their Master. Every Jedi had a view of the Force and they're all very much the same. Anakin's problem is that his inability to change his ways leads to his destruction. That is the price of not adapting.

Well, marriage does lead to the Dark Side as Anakin demonstrated with flying colors. He was attached to his wife and an ideal life. He could not accept that nature says these things cannot last. So his selfishness consumed him, just as the Dark Side does. Only by letting go of attachments, can one function properly. And marriage is the ultimate form of attachment.

See above. There's a reason the marriage rule was enforced. Anakin proved it, wouldn't you say. Same with many of the eu Jedi who have had attachment, a number of which were due to marriages. Marriages were banned for a reason. We see why they were. Attachments. Even if Anakin was allowed to marry Padme with the support of the Council, he's still going to turn to the Dark Side, because the Jedi do not cheat death like that. They do not have that power. No one does. Anakin turns because he wants power and has attachments that he's afraid to let go of.

 

---

thank you for confirming time and again that the only alternative to changing the rules is leave.

<<<so what rules do you suggest they change?>>>


[hr]

The main thing is that no one ever changed any rule (or anything else for that matter) by sneaking around.

Rosa Parks wasn't sitting on that bus in a disguise. [face_raised_brow]

 

well said JM.

 

jvberggren asked an interesting question:
<<<so what rules do you suggest they change?>>>

i would certainly allow marriage.
i would also allow everyone, knight or master or padawan to acees the archives and study the jedi wisdom for themselves. (that's EU, i know, but i still find it interesting).
i would not take kids from birth, instead wait until they are a little older.
i would allow them to keep contact with their families as close as they wish.
i would certainly try to make sure that the kids don't just learn obedience but instead can function in a society at large. basically what luke does: he is a person first and a jedi second. that seems to work.

that's all i can think of for now, or it's the biggies anyway.

The main thing is that no one ever changed any rule (or anything else for that matter) by sneaking around.
Rosa Parks wasn't sitting on that bus in a disguise.

yes. interesting analogy.
and i believe it was the toughest thing people can do, she was a very brave woman.
but then i'm also sure what she did had a very different background.

the analogy you make would incorporate that anakin knew there were rules to change. and maybe he didn't think there was anything he *could* change in the first place. and if you start off from there, you kind of accept that this is the way things are and then you kind of go about and try to adhere without really being able to do it.

the teaching should be about empowering people to know they can change rules in the first place. and if you teach obedience, you can't have that. it's either one, not both.

now for sinister.

Within their own structure, the Padawan is the Learner. They must follow the lead of their Master.

thank you for lecturing me about teaching. believe me, i know how it works. and the way you describe it is teaching obedience. thank you for confirming it.

i'm not inclined to answer the rest of your post. it just goes in circles.

 

---

[i]The main thing is that no one ever changed any rule (or anything else for that matter) by sneaking around.
Rosa Parks wasn't sitting on that bus in a disguise. [/i]

yes. interesting analogy.
and i believe it was the toughest thing people can do, she was a very brave woman.
but then i'm also sure what she did had a very different background.
[hr]

Yes, she was essentially powerless (black and a woman to boot - no lightsaber, no Force), she had no friends in high places (Chancellor anyone?), and her "kind" were regularly beaten, hanged and framed for felonies at that time (it was possible that she was putting [i]her life [/i] on the line.)

The differance was the courage to try to change something and the [b]willingness to accept the consequences.[/b]

[hr]
the analogy you make would incorporate that anakin knew there were rules to change. and maybe he didn't think there was anything he *could* change in the first place. and if you start off from there, you kind of accept that this is the way things are and then you kind of go about and try to adhere without really being able to do it.
[hr]

What?? How could he want to (and eventually) marry and not know that he wanted to change that rule? He didn't accept the rule at all; he simply broke it behind everyone's back.

He was born and raised a slave on a planet where that was perfectly legal and yet he wanted to change that. He believed that could be changed.

He participated in border disputes and negotiations and yet he didn't know rules could change? He saw the Council change their minds about training him and he didn't know decisions could change? He willingly accepted the idea that you can cheat death but he didn't think [i]a rule [/i] could change???

I'm not buying it.

[hr]
the teaching should be about empowering people to know they can change rules in the first place. and if you teach obedience, you can't have that. it's either one, not both.
[hr]

Yes, I'm sure Rosa had a lot of empowerment seminars before she made her move.

Anakin didn't have a problem with disobedience - he willingly disobeyed the injunctions not to marry, not to talk out of turn, to stay on Naboo, etc. It was the consequences he was unwilling to accept. Any two-year old can be disobedient (I know; I've had four) but it takes real courage to employ [b]civil disobediance[/b].

And it's not like no Jedi ever did it before. That's what Obi-wan did when he looked Yoda in the eye and said, "I will train him, without the permission of the Council, if I must." He didn't know what the consequences of that statement might be but he was willing to accept them.

 

Yes, she was essentially powerless (black and a woman to boot - no lightsaber, no Force), she had no friends in high places (Chancellor anyone?), and her "kind" were regularly beaten, hanged and framed for felonies at that time (it was possible that she was putting her life on the line.)
The differance was the courage to try to change something and the willingness to accept the consequences.

yes, it's a good analogy, i said it.
and it might imply anakin had no courage whatsoever.

What?? How could he want to (and eventually) marry and not know that he wanted to change that rule? He didn't accept the rule at all; he simply broke it behind everyone's back.
He was born and raised a slave on a planet where that was perfectly legal and yet he wanted to change that. He believed that could be changed.
He participated in border disputes and negotiations and yet he didn't know rules could change? He saw the Council change their minds about training him and he didn't know decisions could change? He willingly accepted the idea that you can cheat death but he didn't think a rule could change???
I'm not buying it.

well, whatever you buy, he doesn't do it.
so either, he just doesn't see the need because the hiding is okay for him or he felt he couldn't do it.
the former is sort of implied in his willingness to be with her at any cost (even in secrecy), the latter is refuted by him saying 'i'm tired of all this deception'.
i'm not sure what you mean by comparing the marriage issue to cheating death. it's really not the same level of urgency and need.

i'm sort of talking of an obedience pattern here. and i think i've established that. and a feeling on his side that he cannot do anything about it. i don't think it's unwillingness as such. that would mean he sits down and meditates on the issue and then decides to be sneaky about it. and that's something i don't buy about this character.
also i'm thinking padme could have had a hand in that, she is the one who wants to keep it secret in the beginning of ROTS.

also, aggressive negotiations at his master's side on an order is quite different from claiming rights.

Anakin didn't have a problem with disobedience - he willingly disobeyed the injunctions not to marry, not to talk out of turn, to stay on Naboo, etc. It was the consequences he was unwilling to accept. Any two-year old can be disobedient (I know; I've had four) but it takes real courage to employ civil disobediance.

And it's not like no Jedi ever did it before. That's what Obi-wan did when he looked Yoda in the eye and said, "I will train him, without the permission of the Council, if I must." He didn't know what the consequences of that statement might be but he was willing to accept them.

yes, it does take courage to civilly disobey. i don't think i've said anything different.
so, i salute the rosa parks' of this world and i hope each and everyone of us has this courage. because we do not have it all.

what has been said in this thread, not by you, but by other people, is that the alternative to going against the rule was leaving the order. and i think that speaks for not being able to change rules. for me it's an atmosphere thing. obi-wan doesn't dare to go against the council, neither does anakin.

coming back to rosa parks: i think she wasn't in her teens. i think she probably had a few talks with her friends and family about the injustice happening before she did what she did. she knew it was a good thing to do.
with anakin i have the feeling that there wasn't support for what he wanted. he is continually told his feelings for his mom are off-limits, that he cannot see her (even though he is covinced that this is the most natural thing in the world) and i just strongly think it's not because he doesn't see a reason to tell them about his marriage, more that he feels he cannot.
because, as you say, he cannot face the consequences.
which comes down to fear.

 

i would certainly allow marriage.
so you would willingly tempt young and immature jedi who're not necessarily ready for the responsibility?

i would also allow everyone, knight or master or padawan to acees the archives and study the jedi wisdom for themselves. (that's EU, i know, but i still find it interesting).
some information could be dangerous for someone who doesn't yet have a great understanding of the force.
temptation yet again, and completely unnecessary. i'm not sure the gains outweighs the losses here.

about these two points. why add fuel to the fire, when there's already enough temptations to deal with?

i would not take kids from birth, instead wait until they are a little older.
perhaps this is an acceptable change.
still, they have a talent and the jedi help them nurture it and develop it.
not just for the council's sake, but for the children's as well.
i didn't ever feel like the jedi were using the children.

i would allow them to keep contact with their families as close as they wish.
perhaps this is also a reasonable change.
still, it could potentially be a hinderance to their spiritual development.
it's related to marriage imo.
it's perhaps a necessary sacrifice.

i would certainly try to make sure that the kids don't just learn obedience but instead can function in a society at large. basically what luke does: he is a person first and a jedi second. that seems to work.
at some level obedience is needed.
more than often, senior jedi know best. there are exeptions of course.

in almost every instance i can think of in the films, the jedi know better than anakin...
i'm not sure the jedi are so interested in creating likeminded jedi who only follow orders.
it may seem that way because anakin is such a big problem.

look how yoda includes and stimulates the padawans in aotc... that doesn't sound like an organisation that only values obedience and submission to me.

 

okay, so we agree on leaving the kids with the parents and letting them see their parents which kind of amounts to the same thing.

let's work on the other stuff.
some information could be dangerous for someone who doesn't yet have a great understanding of the force.
no offense, mate, but your argument is pretty reactionary.
in terms of enlightenment, which the jedi are clearly about or what they supposedly want to foster, giving people access to knowledge is instrumental.
it's keeping them from it which breeds immaturity, well, and stupidity.

temptation yet again, and completely unnecessary.
can i ask you something? and i really mean no offense. are you a christian?
because that sounds like you equate knowledge with temptation. like say, eating the apple kicks us out of paradise.
is that what you mean? because if it's that, i sure don't agree with it.

i'm not sure the jedi are so interested in creating likeminded jedi who only follow orders.

again, riddle me why QGJ isn't on the council.
i think obi-wan says it best (not like me who has to draw from memory): if you stuck to the code you'd be on the council, master.
that doesn't speak very highly of opinions or views. for me it says, if you do not adhere to our view we will still keep you around, but we will not make you member of the council and participate in important decisions.
also listen to obi-wan when it's about the assignment with padme: we will not exceed our mandate (followed by a near heart attack). obedience is some key to this.
anakin isn't like the other jedi, he is treated like an outsider, too, he is too unpredictable... that says, we don't like unpredictability or difference.

look how yoda includes and stimulates the padawans in aotc... that doesn't sound like an organisation that only values obedience and submission to me.

that's about the only example i can think of which doesn't follow that rule. everything else does.
maybe it has to do with anakin himself, with obi-wan specially wanting to enforce the rules with even more rigidity than strictly necessary because he has this high-profile case. i don't know.

>> allow marriage.
so you would willingly tempt young and immature jedi who're not necessarily ready for the responsibility?

if you're filing it under temptation... i think this is a weird argument.
i don't think marriage is a temptation or anything. i think it is a strong bond between people (no, i'm not married) and a declaration of their love for on another. i also think being married and having a family is about the most natural thing there is. so allowing it amounts to allowing the obvious.

so, how are you learning responsibility? that's right, you learn by being given some.

 

no offense, mate, but your argument is pretty reactionary.
in terms of enlightenment, which the jedi are clearly about or what they supposedly want to foster, giving people access to knowledge is instrumental.
it's keeping them from it which breeds immaturity, well, and stupidity.
information is certainly a good thing.
for someone who's not spiritually ready, certain info could be potentially dangerous.

there are a lot of buddhist masters who're reluctant to share info on techniques to those who're not spiritually ready.
in a master/apprentice relationship, the master is in the better position when it comes to deciding when the apprentice is ready. you can' have a lot of padawans running around and exploring tricks and techniques when they don't even know the basics.
some info should be held back imo.

can i ask you something? and i really mean no offense. are you a christian?
because that sounds like you equate knowledge with temptation. like say, eating the apple kicks us out of paradise.
is that what you mean? because if it's that, i sure don't agree with it.
no. i consider myself to be an agnostic...
what i'm saying is that you don't offer more temptations and confusion to spiritually immature jedi.
they will have all the facts and info they need in time and when they are ready.
patience is the key here. in order to lear, you must have the right progression and trust that the senior jedi know what's best. afterall, they're in the business of teaching.

again, riddle me why QGJ isn't on the council.
well... riddle me this. how come q-g was allowed to be a jedi despite his revolutionary ways. because the jedi tolerate difference and individuality.

i think obi-wan says it best (not like me who has to draw from memory): if you stuck to the code you'd be on the council, master.
q-g imo is too extreme. he appears to be someone who's difficult to work with.
a council needs to be able to discuss things. i'm not sure qui-gon is too good at that...
and besides, he probably would have left the council sooner or later.

keep in mind that the council disagrees in certain matters and vote on those subjects.
they way in which you disagree is important here. qui-gon was a little like: "it's my way or...".

also listen to obi-wan when it's about the assignment with padme: we will not exceed our mandate (followed by a near heart attack). obedience is some key to this.
anakin isn't like the other jedi, he is treated like an outsider, too, he is too unpredictable... that says, we don't like unpredictability or difference.
anakin needs to learn that he isn't a world champion in every jedi activity that exists...
again, the way in which anakin disagrees shows lack of understanding and respect for how things are done.
if anakin was a little more objective and calm, then i'm sure the jedi would tkae his suggestions a lot more seriously.

if you're filing it under temptation... i think this is a weird argument.
i don't think marriage is a temptation or anything. i think it is a strong bond between people (no, i'm not married) and a declaration of their love for on another. i also think being married and having a family is about the most natural thing there is. so allowing it amounts to allowing the obvious.
for a jedi, marriage is a possible temptation. a lot of conflics can come out of it (as we see with anakin in aotc and rots).

so, how are you learning responsibility? that's right, you learn by being given some.
just being a jedi means a lot of responsibility. it's a hard and difficult life. no reason to make it harder.

if i had a teenager son who'd just learned that his close friend had commited suicide, i would certainly not teach him responsibility by going to the store and buying some bullets for the shotgun i keep in my closet and then take off.

that's the whole point! being a jedi is an emotional struggle with few rewards. it's a constant struggle and you don't need to make it worse by giving the jedi further responsibilit

 

QGJ is the only Jedi (besides Anakin) I have ever heard Lucas talk about in terms of being wrong or having made a grave mistake. Go figure.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

?- George Lucas, Cut Magazine, 1999

He says he's wrong and right at the same time.

 

---

[b]and it might imply anakin had no courage whatsoever.[/b]
[hr]

He had courage - I wanted him to show it where it counted.


[hr][b]the latter is refuted by him saying 'i'm tired of all this deception[/b][hr]

He should have never started the deception in the first place. By then he had already given up a large part of his honor and integrity.


[hr] [b]i'm not sure what you mean by comparing the marriage issue to cheating death. it's really not the same level of urgency and need.[/b][hr]

I was showing that he will entertain "radical" ideas. And believes he has the power to achieve them. So why not the "radical" idea that the Jedi could change.


[hr] [b]that would mean he sits down and meditates on the issue and then decides to be sneaky about it. and that's something i don't buy about this character. also i'm thinking padme could have had a hand in that, she is the one who wants to keep it secret in the beginning of ROTS.[/b][hr]

I wish he had meditated about it - I've said it before. Anakin was given all those midichlorians for a reason and it wasn't just so he could hack people up. And I don't absolve Padme of her part in the deception - she even knew it "would destroy them." Only fools or children reach for a flame hoping it won't burn them - she was neither.

[hr][b]obi-wan doesn't dare to go against the council, neither does anakin.[/b][hr]
Please see "I will train him, without the permission of the council if I must."

[hr] [b]which comes down to fear[/b].[hr]
Yes, but courage is not about having no fear - it's about doing the right thing anyway.

Look what I'm saying is - you seem to see a lot of problems w/ the Jedi. I'm not sure I agree with all of them. I think too many people see a culture that is very unlike our(judeo-christian western) culture and react in a knee-jerk ethnocentric way. It's different so it's bad. For instance, there are cultures that don't value marriage very highly (a wiccan coven a friend belongs to for example.)

Anyway that's all beside the point. The point is - if there are problems in a culture the change [b]must come [/b] from those who see the need. Who stand up and say - this doesn't work for me. Maybe that was part of his mission as "The Chosen One" - to change the Jedi. But he wasn't even willing to try. He snuck around and pretended to follow the rules while breaking them willy-nilly. No good could or did come from that.

 

for someone who's not spiritually ready, certain info could be potentially dangerous.

hm, i guess, you'd have to give me an example of when knowledge is dangerous. so far i'm not in for it.

i cannot really come up with potentially dangerous knowledge UNLESS your student is completely amoral. (which is kind of where the sith come in)
what i mean is that if you taught your student how to kill in a particular manner (and it's very easy to do etc etc) then it's only dangerous to other people, mind you, if your student misuses that power/knowledge (i think i would like to refer to foucault here ) and then the problem is most definitely the power issue and a responsibility issue. and also your student would most likely find other knowlegde/power to misuse and it really isn't down to the particular knowledge you handed out.
in all the cases known to me, knowledge prevents us from doing foolish things.

in a master/apprentice relationship, the master is in the better position when it comes to deciding when the apprentice is ready. you can' have a lot of padawans running around and exploring tricks and techniques when they don't even know the basics.

yeah, that's interesting. a teacher knows more than the student is the popular assumption, i guess. from my pov a teacher knows other things than the student. so, teaching is exchanging knowledge about each other and enhancing each other.
that's the ideal.
granted, masters are usually older and more experienced. but that doesn't mean that the students have no views of their own.

what i'm saying is that you don't offer more temptations and confusion to spiritually immature jedi.

i still don't agree with it, even with the christianity angle out of the way.
let's try it this way: if your kid wanted to know about human procreation, would you consider your kid to be too immature to know anything about that because your kid could one day aspire to *try* it? or would you rather try to explain how it works so your kid isn't completely clueless. plus, why not talk about it, it's part of who we are?
how does QGJ say it? with more training and time you will [understand].

patience is the key here. in order to lear, you must have the right progression and trust that the senior jedi know what's best. afterall, they're in the business of teaching.

oh, patience is surely a good thing. as i said, teaching is about both sides. it's also a highly individual thing.
at this point we have three examples from teaching proper from the PT (QGJ, obi-wan and yoda) and they seem very different.
maybe it comes down to the individuals. (alright then my teaching criticism really lies with obi and it's not a general jedi flaws topic)

how come q-g was allowed to be a jedi despite his revolutionary ways.
q-g imo is too extreme. he appears to be someone who's difficult to work with.

good point. but then you refuted it yourself.
so, if they have tolerance for difference, why not have someone more rebellious in their midst? hey, this is starting to get interesting. maybe it was just obi-wan wanting to be on the council? but then why does he so easily change loyalties when anakin needs training?
you'd yet have to prove how QGJ is difficult to work with.

if anakin was a little more objective and calm, then i'm sure the jedi would tkae his suggestions a lot more seriously.

that one is a tie.
if the jedi allowed anakin to have more things his way, he would be more inclined to listen to his master on the grounds that he has a say with things, too. he's 20 years old, for crying out loud, when do any of these padawans reach a level of being self-responsible?

if i had a teenager son who'd just learned that his close friend had commited suicide, i would certainly not teach him responsibility by going to the store and buying some bullets for the shotgun i keep in my closet and then take off.

oh well, equating marriage with suicide isn't going to help matters, i suppose. because it isn't.
in the case of

 

jedi momma
He had courage - I wanted him to show it where it counted.
i should like to debate that. along with
but courage is not about having no fear - it's about doing the right thing anyway.
because i disagree with it.

let's try it this way: courage isn't about doing the right thing. courage is neither about having no fear. courage is about overcoming fear and acting on your conscience.

Maybe that was part of his mission as "The Chosen One" - to change the Jedi. But he wasn't even willing to try. He snuck around and pretended to follow the rules while breaking them willy-nilly. No good could or did come from that.

oh, i agree with you there. i strongly believe he was supposed to change the jedi order. keeping secrets only increased the tension.

I was showing that he will entertain "radical" ideas. And believes he has the power to achieve them. So why not the "radical" idea that the Jedi could change.

hm, again, i agree that he's willing to entertain the idea to cheat death. i'll give you that.
but i'd like to point out that he was in a very different state in ROTS than AOTC. that's just how i see it.
in AOTC we have ten years of jedi training that didn't keep him from dreaming of padme and wanting a relationship. it's only when he meets her that he can act on those feelings. then the war breaks out. he hardly sees her. he comes back to coruscant, he wants to come out with it, she doesn't. so, maybe there hasn't really been much time to do it. you'd want him to consult her about it, too, right?

Please see "I will train him, without the permission of the council if I must."

which is the only time he ever speaks against the council. just once and that's 10 years ago. since he's been following their lead.

you seem to see a lot of problems w/ the Jedi. I'm not sure I agree with all of them. I think too many people see a culture that is very unlike our(judeo-christian western) culture and react in a knee-jerk ethnocentric way.

yes, i have a lot of problems with the jedi. i'm not sure what you mean by knee-jerk ethnocentric way. i appreciate they are different.
coming back to the premise of this thread, i just don't see them live up to their own high expectations anymore. it's true they are being manipulated and all, but there were a lot of minds sitting and they don't seem to use any input from thinkers with a different background. neither can they come up with anything satisfying regarding their position in the republic, something that allows them to be neutral and yet act on behalf of the republic. they have effectively manoeuvered themselves into a corner, i feel and they pay for being both short-sighted and inflexible. and, i maintain, they have lost understanding of the human nature.

 

Newsflash : Anakin is wrong and made mistakes!. Hey Guess what?. So did the Jedi Council.

The ball was set in motion for all the events of ROTS well before Anakin came on the scene. so let's remember that. The Jedi all by themselves allowed the Sith to return unnoticed. the Jedi were the ones who were told By Dooku that the Sith control the Senate and Chancellor. and they never figure it out, not untill Anakin discovered the truth. the Jedi held meetings and have stood in the Presence of the Dark lord of the Sith for years, and never detected him. the Jedi also never have any moral Question with leading Slaves/clones in battle, or for that reason where they really came from and why. the Jedi fell for every trick and trap Palps laid out before them, including driving Anakin further from the Jedi way. In fact they lost their own Chosen one to the Darkside,i wonder if it is rlated to the Jedi allowing Anakin's friendship with the Chancellor to continue for years, although they don't trust him? , and they sense the Darkside around him?. Hmmmm. how is all this possible from such wise Masters????. could it be Arrogance?, could it be Complacence?, could it be that they have grown inflexible and rigid?, these would all be flaws, and we are talking about the Jedi here right, so how could that be?.

 

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[b]let's try it this way: courage isn't about doing the right thing. courage is about overcoming fear and acting on your conscience.[/b] [hr]
That's the same thing - acting on your conscience [i]is[/i] doing the right thing. I can't believe that Anakin and Padme thought that sneaking around and lying was the right thing. They knew it was wrong and they did it anyway. WRONG MOVE.


[hr][b]hm, again, i agree that he's willing to entertain the idea to cheat death. i'll give you that.but i'd like to point out that he was in a very different state in ROTS than AOTC. [/b] [hr]
He came up w/ this idea in AOTC. "I let you down Mom, I'll become the strongest Jedi ever." Yadda, yadda, yadda.

[hr] [b]maybe there hasn't really been much time to do it. you'd want him to consult her about it, too, right?[/b] [hr]
I want him to not do the underhanded deed in the first place. Want to get married? Want to have attachments? Stand up and say it. Take the consequences. Don't lie and sneak.


[hr][b]which is the only time he ever speaks against the council. just once and that's 10 years ago. [/b] [hr]
It demonstrates his charachter. What he'll do when he feels strongly about something. This is the man that raised and trained Anakin - this was his role model. A man of honor and integrity.

Besides if people can make so much "hay" out of "Dreams pass in time" then a lot can and should be made of this. You don't know that that was the only time he disagreed - it showed that he was willing to do so and he did it the right way. Privately, calmly and resolutely.

[hr][b]they don't seem to use any input from thinkers with a different background.[/b] [hr]
They can't use it if it's not given and given it in the right manner.

[hr] [b]they have lost understanding of the human nature.[/b] [hr] Well - a lot of them weren't [i]human.[/i] (ahem - ethnocentric.) It's hard to imagine a culture that works 100% for such a diverse collection of individuals. It's up to the ones for whom it didn't work to lead the way - not for the ones for whom it did.

This was an extremely large, extremely diverse(species-wise), [b]very flat[/b] organization. (12 leaders and ~9K knights, plus padawans and inititates?) There didn't seem to be any command structure in between the Council and the rank and file. For an organization like that to work, the Council [b]has to [/b] focus on urgent tasks and rely on a fairly strict rule structure to keep order. No good comes from chaos or anarchy. If the rules weren't working or were out-moded it was up to those who saw these problems to raise the issues.

[b]Lead, follow or get out of the way.[/b]

 

hm, i guess, you'd have to give me an example of when knowledge is dangerous. so far i'm not in for it.
well i'm not into EU, so it's difficult for me to provide any examples not knowing exactly what sort of info is in the archives.

i suppose techniques on how to attain physical power is one type of info that should be under control and not open to everyone who wanted it.

yeah, that's interesting. a teacher knows more than the student is the popular assumption, i guess. from my pov a teacher knows other things than the student. so, teaching is exchanging knowledge about each other and enhancing each other.
that's the ideal.
granted, masters are usually older and more experienced. but that doesn't mean that the students have no views of their own.
i do agree it's a two-way street.
as long as a jedi is in training he's vulnurable.
the masters should of course value the padawans input if it's presented in a respectful manner.
but the master should always have the final word when it comes to teaching methods -simply because the master has experience in both learning and teaching.

i still don't agree with it, even with the christianity angle out of the way.
let's try it this way: if your kid wanted to know about human procreation, would you consider your kid to be too immature to know anything about that because your kid could one day aspire to *try* it? or would you rather try to explain how it works so your kid isn't completely clueless. plus, why not talk about it, it's part of who we are?
how does QGJ say it? with more training and time you will [understand].
i agree with qui-gon on this. there's a time and place for everything.
using your exaple... you tell what the kid need to know. the basics! that doesn't mean you take your kid to the local porn shop to show how it really goes down. in short; you don't need to make every info available. you judge these things according to maturity...

good point. but then you refuted it yourself.
so, if they have tolerance for difference, why not have someone more rebellious in their midst? hey, this is starting to get interesting. maybe it was just obi-wan wanting to be on the council? but then why does he so easily change loyalties when anakin needs training?
you'd yet have to prove how QGJ is difficult to work with.
i can't know obviously... but the way he talks to the council and reacts to their decisions doesn't really reflect that he's someone who's easy to work with.

oh well, equating marriage with suicide isn't going to help matters, i suppose.
lol, i was't doing that...
i was trying to describe some of the emotional trouble the jedi face all the time when training to be jedi.
and entering a marriage when you are emotionally confused, is sort of like handing a gun to a suicidal teenager.
it will complicate things and make the decision harder for most i imagine.

well, what's weird to me is that despite some people insisting that the jedi can have relationships if they manage to not care too much (hehe) you seem to be saying no relationships at all. now let's discuss this in the light of what i said about being natural and all.. and my answer is still: noooooooooooooooooooo. i'm not advocating no relationships at all. just marriage. i have no problem with friendships... it's romantic relationships that are the most dangerous imo.

 

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[b]Newsflash : [u]Anakin is wrong and made mistakes!.[/u] [face_shock] Hey Guess what?. So did the Jedi Council. [/b] [hr]
Agreement all around

[hr][b]The Jedi... allowed the Sith to return unnoticed, ...stood in the Presence of the Dark lord of the Sith for years, and never detected him. [/b] [hr]
I'm willing to let this go under "dark side clouds everything."


[hr][b]the Jedi also never have any moral Question with leading Slaves/clones in battle, or for that reason where they really came from and why. [/b] [hr]
Ahhh. We start to get to the crux of the matter here. You don't need the Force - dark side or light side to see that this was a big mistake. The Jedi were dedicated to peace but they let themselves be drawn into basically leading a war. (What's that saying? Fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity?)

Now I'm not saying that all wars are wrong or that you should never fight but you should be d*** careful before you jump in. Questions they should have asked?

#1)If this war is so important to the people of the Republic - why aren't they fighting too?? When you're fighting for people who aren't fighting along side you - [b]big red flag![/b] You're basically really poorly paid mercenaries at that point.

#2)If we support democracy - does this Republic still qualify as one? Yeah, Padme asked this question - 3 years too late! When you start giving all those powers to the Supreme Chancellor to "support the war" then you're basically destroying the village in order to save it.

#3)Who's gaining and who's losing from this war? Does it feel right? You have to ask that and keep asking it - and pull out as soon as the answer is evident that you're fighting the wrong battle - no matter what the cost to your "image."

Palp jangled that war like a shiny set of keys in front of: The Jedi, The Senate, and The People of the Republic. And they all went for it - like a bunch of 6 month old babies. And it didn't take any special powers to see that it was [i]all wrong.[/i]

 

I'm willing to let this go under "dark side clouds everything."

But of course, most people do. but How is the Darkside able to Cloud everytrhing. there's the Question. and i'm sure the Jedi and their flaws, were not at all the reason, o.k. then

this is the Point the Darkside needed to be fed. and it was , by ignorance, arrogance and complacency. it's true . the Jedi helped make it possible.

Palp jangled that war like a shiny set of keys in front of: The Jedi, The Senate, and The People of the Republic. And they all went for it - like a bunch of 6 month old babies. And it didn't take any special powers to see that it was all wrong.

no powers needed?. but who , of all people should have been wiser to it?. and why did they wait so long to even start to suspect it was Palps?. even after Dooku tells ObiWan in AOTC the truth, the Jedi are still not sure?. they were blind , and they made it possible through their own lack of ability to let the Sith gain this power. the Sith did not get there by sheer luck. the Jedi allowed it to happen .

 

The reasons why the potentials are taken at a young age, is to train them in the ways of the Force. They must learn to be detached. They must understand the Force and develop the skills early. It's not much different from the Shaolin Monks who start training at an early age. This form of training results in better trained Jedi. Jedi who are capable of letting go of emotional connections, otherwise known as attachments. So long as a Jedi does not have an attachment, they will not run the risk of turning to the Dark Side. It's proven in both the films and the eu, that every Jedi who had an attachment, became lost to the Dark Side. Either as a Sith Lord or as a Dark Jedi. They either fully turned or managed to come back from it. The following is a small sampling of this.

-Xanatos couldn't let go of his father and became so attached, arrogant and greedy that he turned.
-Asajj Ventress couldn't accept that her Master was killed, which resulted in her attachment corrupting her into becoming a Dark Jedi.
-Qui-gon developed an attachment to Tahl and nearly turned when she was killed.
-Ulic Qel-Droma had an attachment to Master Arca and when he failed to save him, he became obsessed with power which lead to his becoming a Sith.
-Dooku couldn't accept Qui-gon's death due to his emotional attachment to him, as well as his own fears and desire to become powerful, resulted in his becoming a Sith.
-Kyp Durron had an attachment to his family, which fed into his desire to become stronger in the Force, due to his fears of being weak and losing his family. Combined with his anger and hate for the Empire.
-Zekk had an attachment to his friends and the man who was like a father to him. He was also afraid that his friend would not care for him, because they were Jedi in training and he was just a commoner. When tempted with power, he chose it to prove that he was worthy of his friends. Then became convinced that they were trying to hold him back.
-Gav Daragon had an attachment to his sister and wanted to do right by her, which resulted in his greed overcoming his rational thinking.
-Depa Bilba had an attachment to Mace and to the Republic. Her fear of losing them to the Clone Wars, lead her to the Dark Side.
-Vima Da Boda had a family and attachments. Her daughter turned evil and killed her father, which resulted in Vima killing her in anger and hate. Aghast at what she had done, she fled into the spice mines of Kessel and eventually to the bowels of Nar Shadda.
-Sylvar had a mate named Crado. When he was killed by Ulic, she vowed to destroy him in vengence.
-Gantros (sp) had an attachment to his people which lead to his being seduced with the allure of power by Exar Kun.
-Nomi Sunrider had a husband who was killed in front of her and she killed in vengence.

That is why attachments are forbidden. Especially marriage. In the novelization, Anakin tells Padme that he's thinking about walking away from the Jedi when the fighting is over. But his vision changes his mind, resulting in his choosing to stay and try to figure out what to do. And when he's denied the rank of Master, Anakin's anger also stems from his wanting to unlock the secrets in the Archives that only the Council or certain Masters are allowed to view.

Anakin didn't care to change the Code, he was just interested in his own selfishness. Now if he had done that, it would show that he has the potential to be mature and wasn't just thinking of himself, but of the Order as a whole. Instead, he was being selfish by breaking the rules and not making an effort to try and effect change.

 

If anyone had read Star Wars Episode III Revenge of the Sith novel, this would be a good example. When Obi-Wan and Anakin get inside where Palpatine is being held, Anakin feels Darth Teranus and senses it's a trap. They both come to terms that it is a trap, but they continue with their mission as planned. So, yes, the Jedi did make mistakes.

Does anyone else have any examples of Jedi making mistakes?