If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    jedi momma
    acting on your conscience is doing the right thing.

    i understood this more in general terms, but yes, you could put it that way. the only drawback it has is that conscience and the right thing aren't always right for everybody, it might just apply to some people. this is where judgement comes in.

    I want him to not do the underhanded deed in the first place. Want to get married? Want to have attachments? Stand up and say it. Take the consequences.

    i'm sort of passively agreeing with you. ha, that's a way of saying it, right?
    however much we argue here, he didn't, she didn't. the reasons for me are that he probably didn't dare to talk about it. when he's denied masterhood (-ship?) he gets worked up a little and then is quickly silenced.
    what i understand is that anakin himself never had rights in the first place. so he accepts things pretty easily and doesn't really know how to stand up for himself. all his other negotiating actions are done with saber and in combat. so, my guess is that he has problems just doing all these things that you ask of him.

    What he'll do when he feels strongly about something. This is the man that raised and trained Anakin - this was his role model. A man of honor and integrity.

    yes, he feels strongly about being a jedi. of course he does.
    my reservations for this character aside i do feel that 'i didn't want you in this situation' is saying otherwise. he's very respectful towards the other masters and he doesn't dare to openly speak against them. that's what i see. the talk with yoda is not openly in the council. he never openly speaks up against the council, does he.

    You don't know that that was the only time he disagreed - it showed that he was willing to do so and he did it the right way. Privately, calmly and resolutely.

    you're right, i don't know if it's the only time he disagreed. i do know how many times he agrees, though, even though it's not conforming with what he believes. cases in point: the arrogance speech in aotc, the spying issue in rots.

    >> they don't seem to use any input from thinkers with a different background.
    They can't use it if it's not given and given it in the right manner.


    ha, yeah, we only count your opinion when it's appropriate. i agree that manner is important but then i put to mace that his manner towards anakin was gleeful and not respectful of him either.

    It's hard to imagine a culture that works 100% for such a diverse collection of individuals. It's up to the ones for whom it didn't work to lead the way - not for the ones for whom it did.

    oh, that's where the ethnocentric comes in. ah, right. i haven't been thinking in those terms, but yes.
    i believe that both sides should work on accomodating the members. it's with everyone. a school takes responsibility for the kids they take. the jedi even more so, they act as parents for the kids.
    what i learn is that when your kid lies to you it's not good enough to punish the kid. the real issue is to find out why your kid felt he/she should lie to you in the first place. because there isn't enough trust.

    There didn't seem to be any command structure in between the Council and the rank and file.

    i see strong hierarchical structures. one council of twelve deciding on everyone's fate.

    If the rules weren't working or were out-moded it was up to those who saw these problems to raise the issues.

    not if you're the only one who sees it that way and you're intimidated by the whole thing anyway.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way.

    pretty righteous, don't you think?
    i take it you think it's all anakin's problem then?

    jvberggren
    i suppose techniques on how to attain physical power is one type of info that should be under control and not open to everyone who wanted it.

    i wasn't really talking about SW here, i was talking RL as well.
    i think generally knowledge should be open to everyone. that's just my stance. it is with the individual what to do with it and how to use
  2. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    the only drawback it has is that conscience and the right thing aren't always right for everybody, it might just apply to some people. This is a little convoluted for me. If you have a well-informed conscience (which I will allow that Anakin and Padme seem to have) then following it is always the right thing to do and doing what you know is wrong is never the right thing to do.



    ...so, my guess is that he has problems just doing all these things that you ask of him. "You must do the thing you think you cannot." That's the very essence of being a Jedi. I will not accept that he feels: 1) he's ready to become a Jedi knight, 2)that he's moved past his mentor, 3)that he's being held back and yet he doesn't have the guts to stand up for what is right. If he can't stand up to the Council, then what good will he be against an enemy?



    he's very respectful towards the other masters and he doesn't dare to openly speak against them ...he never openly speaks up against the council, does he. The first two things are not linked. He is respectful (as he should be) but he's proved that he will speak his mind when appropriate. I never said he or anyone else should speak openly against the Council.
    You are a Jedi with a problem? You mediatate to try to devine the Will of the Force. You ask to see the Council. You respectfully raise your point. You back it up with what you learned from study and meditation. You accept their judgment if you can live with it - if you can't, you do "what you must" and accept the consequences openly. That is the behavior of an honorable individual.

    Obi-wan did disagree w/ the assignment but I assume he was over-ruled. He then had two choices - stick w/ the Council or resign. He obviously felt the better course was to stick w/ the Council since he believed, even though it wasn't the best situation for Anakin, it was important for the Jedi and that Anakin, "...wouldn't let him down." In AOTC again - he raised his point, he was over-ruled and he chose to accept the decision.


    ha, yeah, we only count your opinion when it's appropriate. i agree that manner is important but then i put to mace that his manner towards anakin was gleeful and not respectful of him either. You cannot count on your opionion always being heard or considered; that doesn't remove your obligation to give it. Manner is important - it's crucial. Anakin invited a strong response by how poorly he chose to state his case. Obi-wan spent 13 years showing him by example how to approach something like this. No effect. Or none when he really needed to show it.

    When Yoda snapped at Obi-wan, "Ready are you? What know you of ready?" It wasn't exactly the nicest thing to say or the nicest way to say it but Obi-wan responded like a Jedi. Proving that he was ready, he could control himself, he could take criticism.



    what i learn is that when your kid lies to you it's not good enough to punish the kid. the real issue is to find out why your kid felt he/she should lie to you in the first place. because there isn't enough trust. Not always. Sometimes kids just lie so they can avoid unpleasantness but the Jedi didn't even know (until too late) that Anakin was lying. I expect more and more from my kids as they age; what's acceptable at 10 or 11 is unacceptable at 14 or 15, etc. I expect better than what we got from Anakin when he is a nearly 20 yo, very powerful individual with what should be a very strong connection to the Force.


    i see strong hierarchical structures. one council of twelve deciding on everyone's fate. That's what I mean - one Council handling over 8K Masters, knights and padawans. They seem to hand out all assignments, hear all reports, deal personally with all mission problems. Doesn't leave a lot of time for searching out those who are hiding their problems.



    not if you're the only one who sees it that way and/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    If you have a well-informed conscience (which I will allow that Anakin and Padme seem to have) then following it is always the right thing to do and doing what you know is wrong is never the right thing to do.

    i think this somewhat contradicts what you say afterwards.

    Obi-wan did disagree w/ the assignment but I assume he was over-ruled. He then had two choices - stick w/ the Council or resign. He obviously felt the better course was to stick w/ the Council since he believed, even though it wasn't the best situation for Anakin, it was important for the Jedi and that Anakin, "...wouldn't let him down." In AOTC again - he raised his point, he was over-ruled and he chose to accept the decision.

    especially in the light of the jedi allowing other opinions.
    if the alternative was indeed to resign because he was overruled and he still felt it shouldn't have happened, then they don't allow it.

    yes, he was overruled but really, look what happened. in his own way obi-wan was right. so, these people who don't know anakin as obi-wan does simply dismiss his judgement. and i don't care how much he takes it like a true jedi. that's not what i mean.

    "You must do the thing you think you cannot." That's the very essence of being a Jedi.

    where did you get that from? and even if it's against your conscience? i think we are tying ourselves in knots.

    Sometimes kids just lie so they can avoid unpleasantness but the Jedi didn't even know (until too late) that Anakin was lying.

    i think we can safely say that it wasn't just avoiding unpleasantness in anakin's case.
    quite true btw that they didn't know he ws lying to them (never openly). i know it and i can therefore try to interpret his actions. and i say deception is done for more reasons than just not being bothered about the right thing to do.

    to me it looks like had he seen a way to do it openly, he would have. he's very enthusiastic about the idea not having to hide it anymore. it works both ways. and often anakin is about not being able to see what other options he has.

    If you're too intimidated to speak up then don't break the rules. If you're brave enough to break the rules, speak up. Anything else is cowardice and abandonment of integrity.

    i think i have taken your point. but it's not happening. so, let's look at why it doesn't happen. if you say anakin isn't a coward and i say he doesn't have any experience fighting for his rights... what is it then?

    Yes, I expect people to be righteous. I expect it of myself, my kids, my employees and my heroes.

    well, it's not a strong expectation of mine.
    i expect people to try their best when it comes to matters of their heart. maybe that's the same.
    whatever, really, i think we have reached an end with this argument. i don't hold it against the character to not spell it out to the jedi. i think he spent 10 years wanting to see his mom with the knowledge of the council and they never acted on it. not even when he started dreaming of her. then some three years being married with obi-wan half knowing it. so, i guess openly approaching him might have worked wonders.
    on the other hand anakin is held back from coming out with it by padme the only time he tries. and i would maintain that before their marriage there just wasn't any need to spell out that, indeed, he has feelings. leaves three years of war and hardly seeing each other.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    People can be in control and can be rational, if they put forth the effort to do so. Anakin does not even try. Being in love is fine, but being attached emotionally to a person is bad. It leads to greed and jealousy, which in turn feeds into fear which turns into anger and hate. Anakin's attachment to his mother causes him to become obsessed with trying to gain power to prevent people from dying. This is unhealthy no matter how you slice it. This obsession is transfered to Padme and intensifies as he spirals out of control. His desire to cheat death provokes him to do whatever it takes, including selling his own soul, for power.

    This is why attachments are forbidden and marriage is banned. It's a system that's been in place for quite sometime and was quite effective.


    A change that was nearly costly. Luke was filled with all kinds of dark emotions and personal attachments. Worse, he was having trouble connecting to the Force, making it more difficult for Luke to advance. The only reason that it worked is that Luke saw himself in his father and saw what attachments would do to him.
  5. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i wasn't really talking about SW here, i was talking RL as well.
    i think generally knowledge should be open to everyone. that's just my stance. it is with the individual what to do with it and how to use but generally everyone should be able to attain it.

    there are exceptions even in real life...
    do you think everyone should have access to info on how to make a bomb for instance...
    should the government launc a website where they describe in detail how you make weapons of destruction?

    well, that doesn't really convince me. for me QGJ was someone who had strong feelings about things and people and by the nature of the council they didn't like that all that much. i liked him all the more for it.
    but if you let your feelings get in the way, then perhaps you shouldn't be on the council...

    oh, i agree you shouldn't marry if you're confused or whatever. i mean in terms of knowing thyself.
    that's it. if you're a young jedi in training, you don't really know yourself.

    wow. sorry, but no. i've really stopped caring about the bleeding attachment issues and all the other stuff. i really have.
    but no, sorry, i think it's ridiculous. what on earth is dangerous about romance?
    except, and i give that to you any day, that it answers to your feelings side and your guts. and that can be something that is not so very easily understood and controlled. but that's what we do, that's who we are. not always in control, not always rational.

    it's not necessarily what the jedi are. with great power comes great responsibility.
    i like it, and i see the value of sacrificing such relationships.
    look at all the super heroes. most have problems in the romantic department.
    but usually through their unselfish love for the woman they love, they give it up to protect the ones they love.

    i think another thing that has gotten somewhat lost is that romantic relationships are not only dangerous to the jedi, but also to their family...
  6. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    People can be in control and can be rational, if they put forth the effort to do so. Anakin does not even try. Being in love is fine, but being attached emotionally to a person is bad. It leads to greed and jealousy, which in turn feeds into fear which turns into anger and hate. Anakin's attachment to his mother causes him to become obsessed with trying to gain power to prevent people from dying. This is unhealthy no matter how you slice it. This obsession is transfered to Padme and intensifies as he spirals out of control. His desire to cheat death provokes him to do whatever it takes, including selling his own soul, for power.

    This is why attachments are forbidden and marriage is banned. It's a system that's been in place for quite sometime and was quite effective.


    So do you think it would have been a better idea if the Jedi were more flexible, allowing Anakin to see his mother? Thus he would be working through his attachment to her. Then when or if she ever died he would be able to let go and then he wouldnt have anything negative to bring into his relationship with Padme.

    Luke managed it in the end with Leia (yes it was difficult but he got there - and he had exceptional circumstances) and that was allowed in the OT. Isnt this something that the Jedi made a mistake with in the PT?
  7. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    Thus he would be working through his attachment to her. Then when or if she ever died he would be able to let go and then he wouldnt have anything negative to bring into his relationship with Padme.
    it's impossible to say what would happen.
    it all depends on how you view anakin.

    i'm not so sure he's even interested in learning how to let go.
    seeing his mother a few times, would that really make him able to let go, or would he be even more attached?
    i say the latter... but it's all speculation of course.

    btw, it's nice to be back after a long break, and it's good to see you and debate with you again MS.
  8. thechozn1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Even in the OT Obi-wan and Yoda didn't just rush off to tell Luke about his sister. As Sinister brought out, Luke was having a hard time connecting with the force. Being able to see his family, like his aunt and uncle, would have only further hampered his progress and gotten in the way. Luke was lucky, and I use that word cautiously, because he didn't have the choice. His family was offed before he even really got started.

    Finding out that Leia was his sister really is what made him almost turn. He could keep it in until someone threatened sissy, then it was on like donkey kong. I don't see how having a bunch of jedi running around having to worry that someone would kidnap their families back home for some inside info would really help anything or be good for the galaxy. And I don't see how having Shmi around was going to help Anakin curb his attachment to her. That doesn't equate in my mind. That's like saying you're trying to quit drinking but you're going to start bartending :confused:
  9. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "seeing his mother a few times, would that really make him able to let go, or would he be even more attached?
    i say the latter... but it's all speculation of course"

    I agree. Plus if she still died a tragic death Anakin would have still
    reacted the same way regardless if he kept up a relationship with her
    or not.
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    JV:

    it's impossible to say what would happen.
    it all depends on how you view anakin.


    Very true. Im slightly ashamed of myself for having to use these what if's from time to time. But I guess it would make sense that the chances of him working through the attachment are greater if he could see his mother than if he's seperated from her.

    i'm not so sure he's even interested in learning how to let go.
    seeing his mother a few times, would that really make him able to let go, or would he be even more attached?
    i say the latter... but it's all speculation of course.


    I have to disagree on this. GL made a very big point out of the fact that Anakinh had to be a young boy in TPM so that letting go would be very hard. As im sure many of us know, we all become 'less attached' to our mothers as we get older. Anakin didnt get the chance to do this. I think had he been given this opportunity it would have been very helpful, rather than derogitory.

    btw, it's nice to be back after a long break, and it's good to see you and debate with you again MS.

    Ditto. Its certainly been a while JV. I look forward to some more discussions wih you on this matter.

    Chozn1:

    Even in the OT Obi-wan and Yoda didn't just rush off to tell Luke about his sister. As Sinister brought out, Luke was having a hard time connecting with the force. Being able to see his family, like his aunt and uncle, would have only further hampered his progress and gotten in the way. Luke was lucky, and I use that word cautiously, because he didn't have the choice. His family was offed before he even really got started.

    Its a different issue I feel with Owen and Beru. Luke was older and different to Anakin in some ways. But the real issue is with Leia. He undoubtably has an attachment to her. She became a central figure in his life. But in the end he was able to let og of that attachment and become a better person.

    Finding out that Leia was his sister really is what made him almost turn. He could keep it in until someone threatened sissy, then it was on like donkey kong.

    Agreed. But nothing worth having comes easy chozn1. ;)

    I don't see how having a bunch of jedi running around having to worry that someone would kidnap their families back home for some inside info would really help anything or be good for the galaxy.

    But if they became treuly selfless and had a family it wouldnt matter. Im not suggesting this should be a common rule either. But in my view it was needed for Anakin as he was different to the other jedi - he had already lived a life. Just look at Luke. After moving past his attachment he could be the perfect Jedi yet still have a relationship with his sister.

    And I don't see how having Shmi around was going to help Anakin curb his attachment to her. That doesn't equate in my mind. That's like saying you're trying to quit drinking but you're going to start bartending

    Lets look at the facts though. Anakin was taken away at 9yrs old as GL believes that at this age who are still attached to your mother. yet had he been a little older and natural grown out of it the attachment wouldnt exist. So its therefore logical that had Shmi still been in his life when he became a jedi he could have grown out of the attachment and still be a good jedi.

    Jedi Queen:

    I agree. Plus if she still died a tragic death Anakin would have still
    reacted the same way regardless if he kept up a relationship with her
    or not.


    I dont agree. the only reason he reacts the way he does in AOTC is because he didnt get the chance to let go. he was seperated very quickly and was alays the 9yr old child inside in relation to his mother. Had he managed to grow out of the attachment and Shmi died tragically, he would have been upset for sue, but would have found it easier to let go. Perhpas his lust for the power to save people from death wouldnt have become such a priority?
  11. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "I dont agree. the only reason he reacts the way he does in AOTC is because he didnt get the chance to let go."

    I disagree. I think it has more to do with this obsession he has with
    being the hero in all situations, being in control and being filled
    with anger, resentment and regret.
  12. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    Very true. Im slightly ashamed of myself for having to use these what if's from time to time. But I guess it would make sense that the chances of him working through the attachment are greater if he could see his mother than if he's seperated from her.
    we all do it from time to time, lol.

    that's true, but at the same time the chances are also greater that he would become more attached.
    it's a paradox of some sort.

    I have to disagree on this. GL made a very big point out of the fact that Anakinh had to be a young boy in TPM so that letting go would be very hard. As im sure many of us know, we all become 'less attached' to our mothers as we get older. Anakin didnt get the chance to do this. I think had he been given this opportunity it would have been very helpful, rather than derogitory.
    that's a good point, but he would never get that level of gradual detachment.
    we're talking about a few visits every now and again...
    it might just make things a lot worse.

    Ditto. Its certainly been a while JV. I look forward to some more discussions wih you on this matter.
    too long...
    it'll be fun and interesting as always :)
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I disagree. I think it has more to do with this obsession he has with
    being the hero in all situations, being in control and being filled
    with anger, resentment and regret.


    He was reckless and arrogant, no doubt about that. But so were many of the other jedi. Anakin as a boy gave with no thought of reward. He was selfless but had an attachment as any young child would have.

    So when he was seperated from his mother he never lost that attachment. That spiralled out of control when she died and everything that happened after that were influenced by this. Had he been given the chance to lose the attachment earlier then im pretty sure that things wouldnt have gone as bad as they did.
  14. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Had he been given the chance to lose the attachment earlier then im pretty sure that things wouldnt have gone as bad as they did"

    Highly doubt that. His original motivation was so no one was else,
    would die like his mom, then to save Padme, then that very quickly
    turned to a sole lust for greed, power and control.
    He choked his wife whom he should have loved as equally or
    greater than he did his mom which shows once he had a new agenda
    the "attachment" to Padme wasn't much of a priority anymore.
    It's not reasonable to explain away all his sickening behaviour
    on the fact he never got to fully separate from his mother.
  15. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Highly doubt that. His original motivation was so no one was else,
    would die like his mom,


    Because of his attachment to her.

    then to save Padme,

    Which came about due to the situation with his mother - again down to that first attachment.

    then that very quickly
    turned to a sole lust for greed, power and control.
    He choked his wife whom he should have loved as equally or
    greater than he did his mom which shows once he had a new agenda
    the "attachment" to Padme wasn't much of a priority anymore.
    It's not reasonable to explain away all his sickening behaviour
    on the fact he never got to fully separate from his mother.


    I think it is. Things spiralled out of control.

    In TPM he was a good, angelic, selfless little boy. He became seperated from his mother and joined the jedi order. As with most of the Jedi and due to his great abilities and Palpatine's brown nosing he became arrogant and cocky - but was still a very good Jedi who did good things.

    But then he has dreams about his mother. And that attachment resurfaces and the fear comes back (as we first heard about in TPM).

    He then see's his mother die. Due to his attachment to her he can't cope. The fear leads to anger, hate and suffering as he kills the Tuskens.

    Had things been handled differently that probably wouldnt have happened.

    Anyway, this attachment is then passed on to Padme and he is now even more possessive, fearful and power hungry. And it gets worse and worse. Up to when he dreams of Padme's death. Once again he does what he thinks he has to do to save her.

    He turns to the dark side and then his actions are worse than ever. He becomes obssessed by power and greed. He becomes evil.

    So yes, I think had that first attachment been dealt with then things wouldnt have become so grave.
  16. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "In TPM he was a good, angelic, selfless little boy."

    I would not call any child angelic and I don't think he was all
    that selfless either. He was very quick to point out that he
    was the only human to run the pod races - even then seeking
    recognition for his actions. Had dreams of becoming a Jedi and
    freeing the slaves - foreshadowing of his need to be seen as
    the hero and preoccupation with becoming someone of status which
    is what he perceived the Jedi to be at that time.
  17. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I would not call any child angelic

    I take it you are a parent. :p

    and I don't think he was all that selfless either.

    "He gives with no thought of reward" - Qui Gon.

    He was very quick to point out that he was the only human to run the pod races - even then seeking recognition for his actions.

    Which he was right about.

    Had dreams of becoming a Jedi and freeing the slaves - foreshadowing of his need to be seen as the hero and preoccupation with becoming someone of status which is what he perceived the Jedi to be at that time.

    Whats wrong with wanting to free slaves? I think thats more to do with his eagerness to help people. But this isnt anything unsual or 'bad'. He is a a very good young boy. Normal.
  18. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    especially in the light of the jedi allowing other opinions. if the alternative was indeed to resign because he was overruled and he still felt it shouldn't have happened, then they don't allow it. Resigning is always an option. How could they stop him? That Temple didn't look like a prison to me. But Obi-wan didn't feel strongly enough about being over-ruled to do so. Yes, the Council does not always take others opinions but as I said, it doesn't remove the obligation to give them. In a situation like this - at least you can say you tried. And your opinion might be more highly valued in the future.


    "You must do the thing you think you cannot." That's the very essence of being a Jedi. where did you get that from? and even if it's against your conscience? i think we are tying ourselves in knots. No - I say NEVER go against your conscience. I pointed out all the things Anakin should have done instead of sneaking and lying and you said maybe he just couldn't. Of course he could; that's what the Jedi training and that high midichlorian count was equipping him to do. The right thing in the face of adversity. And I believe Qui-gon said this to Anakin in TPM. (Or was it only in the novel? Either way it's a Jinn-ism.)



    and i say deception is done for more reasons than just not being bothered about the right thing to do... and often anakin is about not being able to see what other options he has. You mean he was forbidden to do what he wanted/needed so his only option was to resort to deceit. I disagree. His first option was to make his problems/objections known and then if that didn't work, do what he needed openly and accept the consequences. Anakin doesn't see the options because he doesn't look for them. ("Use the Force - think!") Lucas went back and re-shot that scene to put that line in for a reason. It would have saved Anakin, in spite of everything else, in spite of others' failures, if he had learned to do that.


    see his Mom... not even when he started dreaming of her. Even he said, "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her." If he doesn't know, why would someone else? He's not insistant about seeing her, he's the one that turns the conversation to Padme.


    then some three years being married with obi-wan half knowing it. This was a failure of Obi-wan's integrity. Bad move.

    on the other hand anakin is held back from coming out with it by padme the only time he tries. Padme's failure of integrity. Need I say it again? Bad, bad thing.


    well, it's not a strong expectation of mine. i expect people to try their best when it comes to matters of their heart. maybe that's the same. Yes, we have different world views. That's what makes these boards interesting.

    I look at all the mistakes made in the PT and in every case I see the crucial ones were ones of integrity. Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Padme. All of them.
    Love and compassion are vital to life but you can't let them be the sole guide to your actions. To paraphrase my favorite quote, if you sacrifice honor for love you'll lose both and deserve neither.
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  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    This is something I posted in the saga forums regarding attachment:

    One of the most difficult aspects of human nature is the gravity of possession. If one loves it is natural to want to possess because thats the symbotic relationship between everything. Just like the sun loves to possess the planets with gravity we love to possess those objects in our environment. And to a point, humans, like the planets, love to be possessed by the sun or a central loving secure being. Written into both the laws of man and the laws of nature is a possessiveness and attachment to what is loved.

    But can we ever possess another being? Can we ever possess another soul like we would possess a car or house?

    We all like to be relatively near those we love. But when that nearness turns to obsession, control, and manipulation we slip onto the dark side of the force. Jealousy is not natural. The planets do not waist their time being jealous of each other. There is nothing natural about wanting to be the only planet in the solar system. And we cannot possess or buy a sun. Marriage is forbidden by the Jedi Order as it deals with the tremendous problem of attachment and possessiveness by avoiding the ego's drive toward exclusivity. Instead of being the only planet in the solar system each Jedi is joined by other beings. They have to share the light and the love. They can still bask in the field of belonging, they can all belong to each other, but no one can get too possessive of another. Whereas the Sith attempt to be possessive everything and keep the dark to themsleves.

    There are two entirely different views of the universe and everything in it. There is the minds view, set up form the separate observer type consciousness and there is the hearts point of reference which is completely different. Whenever we look at anything; from the psychology of relationships to pain and suffering to spirituality and enlightenment, the hearts perceptual perspective will always be radically different than the separative ego mind. The heart sees things pretty much upside down from the head which is cut off from the heart. When the heart is under the dominion of the separate self we are bound to suffer until the heart breaks free.

    The Jedi/Anakin must learn to see when their love is blind. When they risk relating to others from the heart they must also see that all the levels of consciousness are in proper alignment. They must face the differences eventually, those differences that usually spell the death of romance. Romance is that blindness to the differences that never lasts. They need courage to look at the differences before they break into those types of conflicts that destroy relationships. So the most basic investigation in any love relationship is the willingness to communicate and work out all the differences and conflicts when they arise.

    "When are we going to learn to be honest with each other" - Padme, ROTS.

    If this willingness is there it does not matter what the differences are. With this willingness to communicate and change the Jedi can work it all out if they truly hold love in our hearts. But love never makes demands on the universe or the Force. Love, the true love of the heart is never trying to cut off our loved ones from their own freedom and individuality. The true love of the heart is beyond the ego controlled heart which is into insecurity, jealousy, possession and control.

    Each jedi should be trained how to deal with their emotions and have healthy relationships that do not lead to possession or attachment.

    When Anakin Skywalker was faced with the threat of losing his possession he handled it alone. He did not talk to Padme about it. He did not and could not talk to the Jedi. Instead he took the option given to him by the evil Palpatine. His possession and need for control increased and in the end his blind choices lead to the death of his loved one.

    Luke Skywalker had attachments of his own. But these were not prohibited relationships. Instead, he was taught how to deal with his emotions and enlightne
  20. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "He gives with no thought of reward" - Qui Gon.
    - QGJ's optomism speaking. It's apparent now he should have left
    Ani where he found him.

    He was very quick to point out that he was the only human to run the pod races - even then seeking recognition for his actions.

    Which he was right about.

    - Still bragging to seek recognition.

    There's nothing wrong with freeing slaves or doing anything
    altruistic if it's with a pure motive. Ani does things for
    the recognition, so he'll be seen as the big hero.
    His statements as a child are still foreshadowing IMO.
  21. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    I think I see something between your two views JQ and MS. I think Anakin was generally a good kid in TPM. (As good as any 9 yo can be - I've had two and two more heading there next year [face_praying] )

    But I think his problems are highlighted by a quote from Abe Lincoln:
    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    Anakin was unable to handle the power he was given by his training. His character did not stand up to that test.
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    jedi momma

    I pointed out all the things Anakin should have done instead of sneaking and lying and you said maybe he just couldn't. Of course he could; that's what the Jedi training and that high midichlorian count was equipping him to do.

    well, let's agree to disagree.
    i say if he felt himself equipped to do so (and that's not saying he wasn't just how he himself feels about it) he would have done it. as with kids who lie to their parents the underlying issue is trust. or mistrust, for that matter.
    and i feel he thinks he cannot bring himself to do it. and the jedi training of strict adherence to the code isn't helping matters.

    i agree with you on what he should have done. i agree with all of that facing the consequences stuff. totally. believe me, it grieves me he doesn't come out and just shows them the middle finger.
    i have not been a slave, i have not been subjugated from birth and i have not been forced to live in celibacy and whatever else really... but even i sometimes do not find the strength to face the consequences of my decisions, my actions and differing views.
    and, that's about it really, anakin doesn't do it. so i think the movie nowhere suggests that he didn't want to do it because he couldn't be bothered. to use a mace-ism: it's not in his character.
    for me the movie suggests that he felt he couldn't do it. for some reason that is never actually spelt out. and i'm not sure if thinking had anything to do with it. it think it's more atmospheric to the council.
  23. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    DF:
    If you let Anakin off the hook - he didn't do it so that means he just couldn't then you have to let the Jedi and all the other characters off the hook too. They didn't so they just couldn't.

    If you hold the other characters responsible then you must hold Anakin responsible too. To do otherwise diminishes him greatly. He had great gifts, great potential. Much was asked of him but much was given to him too. He was meant to be a great man. How can you watch these movies and not see that?

    He's not just a victim. No one is. (Well, maybe those younglings he slaughtered but that's beside the point.)
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke was able to get past his attachment issues, because he was older and wiser. When he left Tatooine, he was wanting to leave to do good. But he stayed out of obligation to the Lars. Anakin was at an age where he could not leave so easily. At an older age, he could've easily learned to let go. It wouldn't have been as hard. This is why Lucas choose to have Anakin be nine instead of tweleve or eighteen. A nine year old has harder time letting go, than one who is older.

    In the end, Anakin does not care about anyone except himself. Even when he loves someone like Padme, it's a selfish love. He's only interested in himself rather than the greater good. This is why he says nothing to the Council. He knows that the Code is there for a reason and respects it enough that others can adhere to it if they want to. He's just not going to do that and that is where he makes his mistake.
  25. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    So Sinister, if the jedi allowed Shmi to stay in Anakins life do you think he could have worked through his attachment and avoid any of the problems or mistakes he made later on?
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