If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    In the end, Anakin does not care about anyone except himself

    In the End, yes. But he definitely never started out that way. he had Mentoring from the Light and Dark side of the Force. and after all is said and done, i think he was tutored well by both sides.The Jedi certainly had thier merits, and Obvious SHORTCOMUNGS. The Sith just saw the opportunity and ran with it. the Jedi were absentee Parents. they did'nt regognize Anakin's real potential , till it was stabbing them in the back.
  2. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi were naive thanks to Ani's secrets and lies.
    They knew his potential, especially Obi-Wan.
    It was his potential to do wrong, to betray that they
    underestimated IMO.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It would only work out that way if he didn't go to the Temple. It would only work out that way if he stayed until he was ready to leave on his own. He would've been more than capable of walking away from her, the same way that Luke was capable of walking away from the Lars. He only stayed because as much as he wanted to be selfish, he couldn't be that. He was raised to be selfless and stayed out of obligation. When Luke leaves Tatooine, he tells Obi-wan that there's no reason for him to stay. He wants to move on. In fact, he has moved on already. He loved Owen and Beru, but he was capable of leaving his anguish behind. Same with Obi-wan when he dies.
  4. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    jedi momma
    If you let Anakin off the hook - he didn't do it so that means he just couldn't then you have to let the Jedi and all the other characters off the hook too. They didn't so they just couldn't.

    If you hold the other characters responsible then you must hold Anakin responsible too. To do otherwise diminishes him greatly. He had great gifts, great potential. Much was asked of him but much was given to him too. He was meant to be a great man. How can you watch these movies and not see that?


    *sigh* i'm not letting him off the hook. oh, well, maybe i do. i'm trying to be neutral with it. i'm simply saying i don't see it in the character. that doesn't mean i don't wish it to be there or anything. i just see that this order didn't actually leave him much room to be open about things and he didn't try in return.
    of course you can always claim he should have fought for it. yes. but i also believe that an order that is self-proclaimed about justice and compassion and all this other stuff should maybe, just maybe, not use oppressive and subjugating methods on their members. you know, if i declare myself king of tolerance and i don't allow other opinions on what tolerance is and all that, then i've basically gained nothing much.

    this order totaly bugs me. they are righteous and autocratic to the point that they make him feel so little at home that he has to turn to an elderly politician for support. and maybe you now say, yeah, he should have asked for more support and all that. right. but then i guess love is something you get from your parents for free, nothing you'd have to ask for.

    i'm currently discussing his potential and his job with a friend and right now i'm thinking a person of his background has very little leeway in terms of choices and fighting for rights. maybe i overestimate background, that's how i see people. i see that there wasn't much space to develop, that he wasn't able to deal with so many things that would have been had to deal with to at least have him develop a stronger sense of self and a stronger sense of his own importance.
    so, i don't even see that he has a great understanding of his own responsibility. right now, at this point of discussing the character, i don't see how he could have done his job in this order.
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    It would only work out that way if he didn't go to the Temple. It would only work out that way if he stayed until he was ready to leave on his own. He would've been more than capable of walking away from her, the same way that Luke was capable of walking away from the Lars. He only stayed because as much as he wanted to be selfish, he couldn't be that. He was raised to be selfless and stayed out of obligation. When Luke leaves Tatooine, he tells Obi-wan that there's no reason for him to stay. He wants to move on. In fact, he has moved on already. He loved Owen and Beru, but he was capable of leaving his anguish behind. Same with Obi-wan when he dies.

    Fair enough. I however think that he could have lived the life of a Jedi and spent time with his mother. Ok, its a special allowance. But the Jedi chose to take him on, Anakin is the chosen one, he is a Jedi who needs help with his attachment issues. I think it makes good sense for the Jedi to do everything they can to help Anakin become a better Jedi.
  6. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "i don't see how he could have done his job in this order."

    He couldn't b/c he wanted the pleasures in life that are not
    befitting a member of the Jedi order. He knew this when he
    reached adulthood and that's when he should have stood up as a
    man and said I can't be part of this order and marry Padme so I
    have a choice to make, then made it.
    He chose to live in secrecy and as always one lie begets another
    and so on until you destroy what you were originally trying to
    protect. Living a lie is strenuous and wreaks havoc on you
    emotionally which aided Ani in his fall. His own choices did way
    more to damage him than anyone else did IMO.
  7. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    The Sith just saw the opportunity and ran with it. the Jedi were absentee Parents.
    Anakin is neither a football nor a four year old. He was a grown man with options who made really poor choices. Did others also? Yes!! I?ve outlined them several times above.

    Was Anakin?s eventual suffering in proportion to his heinous acts? He pretty much deserved what he got.

    Were Obi-wan?s and the Jedi?s eventual suffering in proportion to their mistakes? No! They suffered so much more than they deserved (especially Obi-wan ? the Job of the SW Saga). Maybe that?s why people find it hard to dwell on their mistakes. They paid for them in an exponential form.
    />/>
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    jvberggren
    do you think everyone should have access to info on how to make a bomb for instance...
    should the government launc a website where they describe in detail how you make weapons of destruction?


    yes. in a way, i know that we cannot have that happening, but adhereing to what i said earlier, i believe it's more to do with the individual than with the knowledge itself. the knowledge is passive, it doesn't hurt people as such, it makes us smarter usually. it's people who put that stuff into action. in keeping with SW and choices... luke rushes off to bespin to help his friends and ends up learning the truth about his dad. some people argue that this was a bad move. i think it was soso, it helped him understand more things and grow up about his past. i cannot emphasize enough how much knowing that vader is his dad prolly helped him see the light.

    but if you let your feelings get in the way, then perhaps you shouldn't be on the council...

    well, let's go back to they allow feeling and difference. that doesn't fit in your theory. it fits mine.

    if you're a young jedi in training, you don't really know yourself.

    you don't know yourself until you have experienced yourself in situations and with people. by just hanging around and twiddling your thumbs you will learn nothing about who you are. being in a relationship also allows you to see aspects of yourself. just like being alone does etc etc. it's social learning. you cannot simply ask everyone for celibacy and then say, we will tell you when you're ready. there's no ready for relationship, there's no ready for love, it just happens.
    and i argue that it's precisely this unpredictability which the jedi fear and want to do away with.

    i think another thing that has gotten somewhat lost is that romantic relationships are not only dangerous to the jedi, but also to their family...

    sorry, i don't think i can follow you here.
    whatever, really. it's very close to my favourite analogy here: should priests marry? look what happens to their selfless love and celibacy.

    with great power comes great responsibility.

    of course. having a family is part of being in the world. it's what we do. we pass our knowledge and love on to our children. we thrive on feelings.
    responsibility that is only an abstract notion along with compassion is not enough.
  9. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Anakin is neither a football nor a four year old. He was a grown man with options who made really poor choices. Did others also? Yes!! I?ve outlined them several times above.

    I was not neccesarily talking to YOU. and i never said he was a Football. [face_worried] . of course he was a Grown man, but as i said he never started out Evil. and although you may acknowledge that , does not mean others are as wise.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's not that Luke was never going to find out. They were going to tell him when he was ready to deal with the burden of knowing about his father. He was not ready to know when he left Tatooine. He was not even ready when he left for Bespin. But he was able to deal with it and understand, because he was trained to understand.

    In Anakin's case, there are dark secrets that few Jedi are even allowed to have access to. Dooku went looking through what the Jedi had on the Sith, which fed into his desire to become all powerful. Anakin wanted to see if there was anything that could give him what he wanted, but there was nothing. All he would find would be the knowledge the Jedi took from the Sith, which would not help Anakin at all. A Master is more than capable of dealing in such knowledge.

    Personal feelings mean that you aren't being objective. Personal feelings means that you aren't be rational or logical. Anakin was letting his personal feelings dictate his actions and as we see throughout AOTC and ROTS, they are his undoing.

    A Jedi isn't celibant as Lucas said. They just cannot be married. They can tap all kinds of ass, but not be married to one person. Anakin could sleep with Padme all he wanted, but he couldn't marry her.

    Being a Jedi means that you give up the creature comforts that others take for granted. Being a Jedi means that they cannot have a family. Being a Jedi means that they have no attachments, possessions and total control of their emotions. The bond of a Master to a Padawan is close to being like a family. That's why Anakin says that Obi-wan is like a father to him. For all intents and purposes, Obi-wan is his father. Note that Obi-wan never discourages Anakin from calling him that. Obi-wan felt the same way towards Qui-gon, who felt the same way towards Dooku. The Jedi are forbidden from having friendships or loving others. They just cannot become emotionally connected to the point of being attached.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Was Anakin?s eventual suffering in proportion to his heinous acts? He pretty much deserved what he got.

    it's that kind of thinking which really bugs me.

    like all we can think of is punishment instead of prevention.

    He knew this when he reached adulthood and that's when he should have stood up as a man and said I can't be part of this order and marry Padme so I have a choice to make, then made it.

    i think i've written enough about this already. so i'll just repost:
    i also believe that an order that is self-proclaimed about justice and compassion and all this other stuff should maybe, just maybe, not use oppressive and subjugating methods on their members. you know, if i declare myself king of tolerance and i don't allow other opinions on what tolerance is and all that, then i've basically gained nothing much.
  12. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    It's not that Luke was never going to find out. They were going to tell him when he was ready to deal with the burden of knowing about his father. He was not ready to know when he left Tatooine. He was not even ready when he left for Bespin. But he was able to deal with it and understand, because he was trained to understand.

    whatever you say, he found out the way he found out. so you can get caught up all night about what was supposed to happen, regardless this was how it happened and it not only helped him, it enlightened him.

    i take it you deal in hierarchy and knowledge should be held back. that is what creates an elite of knowledgeable people and their subordinates. just so you can put this in perspective.

    Personal feelings mean that you aren't being objective. Personal feelings means that you aren't be rational or logical.

    which is why the jedi council, a bunch of machos who were all about masculine rationalization, couldn't allow them in their midst.

    A Jedi isn't celibant as Lucas said. They just cannot be married.

    :* i know you do your best and i appreciate your efforts, but you're not making sense.
    it might have been some help, had luke had a girlfriend in the OT. people would be less caught up discussing this nonsense.

    The Jedi are forbidden from having friendships or loving others.

    now they cannot even be friends anymore? newsflash, sinister: you cannot be detached in a relationship! one night stands aren't part of the GFFA philosophy, i take it.
  13. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    I have avioded responding to this thread for a while but feel it is time for my 2 cents.

    When ever you look back in history and look at the "loosing" sides it is hard not to say they made mistakes. I would agree that the Jedi were not perfect but have a hard time thinking what they might have done different. It has been said that the Jedi should have changed their ways to "keep up" with the Sith but just exactly how should they change and how would that have helped them "see" Palpatine and the coruption in the senate. I would be interested in hearing some suggestions along these lines. Yes people have given different options with dealing with Anakin but does this really help them recognize the real problem they had with Palpatine and the republic.

    Also there is the talk of attachments and Anakin and that the Jedi should have been less strick with dealing with Anakin and his attachments. My thoughts are this. First if you move Anakin's mom to live with him is this a good thing. For a while maybe but does not Shim have something to say about it also. It seemed she was not being treated bad by slave standards and in fact found someone to love and was freed with out Anakin's help. So may be she was where she was supposed to be. I personally feel having her around Anakin would not help him get over her one way or the other. It seemed to me by AOTC he was "over" her. It was only his dream and her death that brought back his issue with his mom. I mean when she died she was free so he should not blame himself for not "freeing" her like he promised. It all came down to Anakin liking power and being the "one" too much. He felt these is nothing he could not do and the death of his mom brought out to him that he could not control the universe and he did not want to hear that.

    Second I would like to present this comparision. Drinking is not in it's self a bad thing, it is a normal human activity and not illegal. At one time it was legal to drink in some places as young as 16 and in some countries you can drink that young still. But in America after more and more teenage kids were killed with drinking and driving it became apparent that telling and try to teach kids it is not safe to drink and drive was not good enough to stop the problem. Instead laws were passed making it illegal to drink when under 21. The law helped cut down on the number of deaths to drinking and driving. I would relate this much the same way to the Jedi's rule on marriage or any other attachment.

    edit typos
  14. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    the Jedi were absentee Parents. they did'nt regognize Anakin's real potential

    i'm thinking they recognized his potential but they feared it. i'm inclined to believe sid actually. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *pledges self to his teachings*
  15. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    we understand,you hate his guts,we get the memo now please lets move on to a more objective debate.
  16. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    quiller

    feels like i'm having the thread to myself, so i'll run with it. :D

    i'm thinking the purity some people here imply the jedi were supposed to have doesn't really match up to real life or anything. it looks good on paper, but it doesn't really fly in reality.

    so, i see nothing wrong with loving your mom and having that attachment and being married. it's just what we do. and anakin had every right to claim that.

    it's a nice issue you raise by saying that maybe shmi was better off on tatooine. we'll never know. i mean, we won't know, maybe it'd have been better for anakin to stay there with her and develop into a more rounded person like luke. it seemed to do wonders for luke to be raised there and be a person first and a jedi second.

    He felt these is nothing he could not do and the death of his mom brought out to him that he could not control the universe and he did not want to hear that.

    he has this issue that he's not in control of anything. he might just want a little bit of control, but he cannot even have that in the order, so he will lash out once he feels utterly helpless. there's a very good saga thread that you might want to go looking into for that.

    after more and more teenage kids were killed with drinking and driving it became appart that telling and and teaching kids it is not safe to drink and drive was not good enough to stop the problem.

    the thing is, once you teach it and tell it, it should be enough. you then leave it to the individual. as tough as this sounds, but we have to hand over responsibility to the kids, too. you do it gradually, not by saying when they're 11, alright, you can do whatever you like. if course not.
    the problem is that you'd like to protect your kid from everything because you see many many dangers in this world and many many uncertainties. but if you permanently keep these things out of the range and teaching you'll do more damage once the kid hits real life. and one day your kid will have to face some type of reality.
    so, the jedi order kept too many things from the teachings in order to maintain their virtue. you can only go so far with this, one day RL will creep up and you better be able to handle it accordingly.

    It has been said that the Jedi should have changed their ways to "keep up" with the Sith but just exactly how should they change and how would that have helped them "see" Palpatine and the coruption in the senate. I would be interested in hearing some suggestions along these lines.

    have faith in their own prophecy. that's all i have to say.
  17. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    ...i'm not letting him off the hook. oh, well, maybe i do. i'm trying to be neutral with it. i'm simply saying i don't see it in the character. You do let him off the hook. I'm not asking you to see him as a monster but as a man who could have done better. Much better. And I do see it in his character. It's there - he knew he did wrong when he slaughtered the Tuskens, he was ashamed of hiding his marriage, he wanted to confide in Obi-wan, he reacted to Palps reveal w/ righteous indignation. He knows himself, he knows right from wrong, he knows how to speak up for himself, goodness knows he's willing to question authority (if not particularly savy about it.)

    this order totaly bugs me. It's plain that the Order bugs you - you want them to change but you refuse to see that Anakin had to be part of that change. I don't feel strongly about the Code one way or another except that I feel they had a right to live that way if they so chose. Parents handed their kids over to be raised in this religion/culture. That's no different then chosing what culture/religion to raise your own kids in; a right we all reserve.

    No religion/culture works for all it's members. I was raised in a very strict household in a very traditional religion. In college I felt a strong disagreement w/ some of the rules. I've chosen to stay and I've chosen to speak out. I'm currently under "sanctions" of a sort for something I refuse to do (or not do depending on how you want to look at.) I expect no less from the Chosen One. Sorry.

    he has to turn to an elderly politician for support. and maybe you now say, yeah, he should have asked for more support and all that. right. but then i guess love is something you get from your parents for free, nothing you'd have to ask for. I think Palps would have been irresistable for just about any kid. Someone who tells you you're always right and the best? Yet Anakin still sees Obi-wan as "the closest thing I have to a father." That's actually pretty impressive.
    Obi-wan did love Anakin. I don't think anyone disputes that. The "father" thing proves he knew it. As for asking for support - no parent knows instinctively everything their kid needs. Believe it or not - sometimes they have to tell us. Sometimes we get it all wrong.


    ... at least have him develop a stronger sense of self and a stronger sense of his own importance. Hmmmm, I think Anakin has a pretty strong sense of self and self-importance. o_O

    i don't even see that he has a great understanding of his own responsibility. right now, at this point of discussing the character, i don't see how he could have done his job in this order. I keep coming back to it like a broken record. Everyone get's obssessed w/ Ani's physical strength (he's a 9! stronger than Palps, better than Kenobi, etc.) while overlooking the fact that what gave him that (midis, training, Force) also gave him equal potential for mental and spiritual strength. How could it not? He just had to reach for it.

    Oh, and as for the punishment thing? When prevention has failed all parents' thoughts turn to punishment. It's a way of preventing the next disaster. If only by example.
    />/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  18. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    I think the Jedi did realize Anakin's true potential but like most things Anakin and others thought his potential was all about how "stong" or how "powerfull" with the light saber. IMO Instead his true potential might be being truely "one" with the force more so than anyone before him. It is this power I also think passed on to Luke that ends up serving Luke so well in the final battle and resisting the power of the dark side and laying down his saber.
  19. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    I knew you weren't speaking directly to me but when you spoke of the Sith taking him and running I pictured them tucking him under one arm like a football.[face_laugh]

    As for being wise, it's probably that I'm just astoundingly older than most of you. [face_worried] And w/ age comes, well you know.
    />/>
  20. battlewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    thats why i cant stand tpm anymore, because its clearly obvious that all the problems stem from anakin leaving his mother at an early age which really makes it less anakins fault, and more qui gons. thats crazy to think its all ankains fault. it wouldve been better if anakins fear was just solely an irrational thing not something that was forced on him, technically it wasnt but what 10 year old knows exactly what he wants to do for the rest of his life? which is why i like rots as a stand alone film better
  21. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    I'm not asking you to see him as a monster but as a man who could have done better. Much better.

    i do believe i've given you that.

    he knew he did wrong when he slaughtered the Tuskens, he was ashamed of hiding his marriage, he wanted to confide in Obi-wan, he reacted to Palps reveal w/ righteous indignation. He knows himself, he knows right from wrong, he knows how to speak up for himself, goodness knows he's willing to question authority (if not particularly savy about it.)

    well, i agree with that. if only with regard to particular situations and people. but i don't want to get bogged down in minutiae.

    I don't feel strongly about the Code one way or another except that I feel they had a right to live that way if they so chose. Parents handed their kids over to be raised in this religion/culture. That's no different then chosing what culture/religion to raise your own kids in; a right we all reserve.

    yes, i was raised a catholic and look what it did to me. :D i have strong feelings about being made to believe one religion and my parents did that to me. alas, i got to choose what i wanted to do after a couple of years but before that i was subjected to indoctrination of the original sin and catholic guilt.
    if you take a kid even with the parents' permission into that kind of environment you are bound to create a dependency to the order at that age, i mean. and i'm not sure i like this all that much. it's very different from choosing to adhere to a religion once you're old enough to choose the one you'd like. a lot of my frineds have done so and they're very happy with it.
    luke was allowed to choose. he could have stayed on tatooine but he wanted to go. for a ten-year-old i think this type of choice is something entirely different. and it shows their lack of understanding of his situation, QGJ rushing to take him to coruscant, the council taking him on after much debate. there was no way this boy would have fitted in with the rest of the padawans.

    I expect no less from the Chosen One.

    yes, under normal circumstances, i would agree. but not this time.
    i don't know you, but you don't strike me as a particularly unstable person. i think you have a lot of strength to be able to speak up.

    I think Palps would have been irresistable for just about any kid. Someone who tells you you're always right and the best?

    well, then you should ask yourself, did he never hear any praise for anything from obi-wan? i don't see any in aotc given. because the appeal of course is understood, but what makes it so appealing in the first place is that he doesn't get elsewhere.
    if their (or rather obi-wan's i should say) style of teaching consists of only pointing out weaknesses and failures then it's obvious why he would turn to someone else.

    As for asking for support - no parent knows instinctively everything their kid needs. Believe it or not - sometimes they have to tell us. Sometimes we get it all wrong.

    i believe you. i also believe myself. (and everybody at TFN!!!!! [:D] )
    whatever you do, parents know to love their kids. whatever i have done wrong, my parents will not kick me out. maybe they are too forgiving, but so what. i think parents love unconditionally. they will get things wrong, but they will also give you support because they will care.
    i don't see that done with anakin. it's like whatever he does is wrong.

    I think Anakin has a pretty strong sense of self and self-importance.

    i don't think so. he was stronlgy reliant on other people. on padme, on obi-wan, on palps. in the ruminations scene he is about to do something very radical and new to him: he will do something for himself. and he is utterly alone in that scene. he has been isolated from everybody in rots which is also why he fails.
    he has no faith in his own decisions anymore and he will rather choose the comfort of slavery again than being by himself and making his own decisions and facing consequences.

    Everyone get's obssessed w/ Ani's physical streng
  22. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2

    i do believe i've given you that. I was not clear on that - at times it seemed to me that you see Anakin only as a victim.

    yes, i was raised a catholic and look what it did to me. Well, me too. And I'm choosing to raise my kids the same. And I don't consider it child abuse. I'd rather they have a sense of sin and guilt (a lot of people could use that) rather than no moral center (not that religion is the only path to that but it's the one I chose.)


    if you take a kid even with the parents' permission into that kind of environment you are bound to create a dependency to the order at that age, i mean. and i'm not sure i like this all that much.
    Does this mean you don't allow that people have the right to raise their kids as they see fit? Or that there's only one "right" way to do it? If so I must respectfully disagree. No child was ever ruined by a strict but loving environment. A lot have been ruined by parents who tried to be their "friends" or didn't set sufficient limits.

    When the kids are old enough they're still free to accept or reject the religion or values they were raised in. No child is raised in a vacuum - that would be abuse. We share our values no matter what they are. It's no more wrong to teach a child the tenets of a faith, than it is that meat is murder, or sports are important, or education is crucial etc, etc. You can't turn them out at 21 w/ no pre-conceived notions - then you really did fail. You just chose which values you honestly believe are in the best interest of the child - which is what the Jedi did.

    there was no way this boy would have fitted in with the rest of the padawans. Yes, it was a probably tough at first. But he still managed to gain the skills, and hone the gifts he needed to. Anakin was ready to make the right decisions. He came too close to protray him as unable to do so.


    yes, under normal circumstances, i would agree. but not this time.
    i don't know you, but you don't strike me as a particularly unstable person. I don't see Anakin as unstable. He was a self-possessed, enormously gifted, confident young man who was deeply loved by at least two people. That's more than a lot of people get.

    did he never hear any praise for anything from obi-wan? i don't see any in aotc given.

    if ...obi-wan's... style of teaching consists of only pointing out weaknesses and failures... I always say if you want to see what kind of parent a person is - don't look at the small amount of time you observe the parent in action - look at the kid. So let's look at Ani. He's skilled, confident, comfortable complaining about Obi, comfortable joking w/ him, he doesn't fear him... This doesn't not look like an abused, harangued, neglected kid to me.

    I guess this is my chance to put forth my rather unique view of Obi's "parenting." When I saw AOTC, I saw Ani's behavior and I thought - wow, "spoiled brat." Well, no one acts like that unless they've been well, spoiled. Umm, it wasn't Shmi and he doesn't spend enough time w/ Palps for that to be the whole answer so that leaves... Obi. I think he had been spoiling him then got scared when Ani got to be so strong and so cocky so fast. Yes, we saw him cracking down pretty hard on Ani but I figure it was too little, too late. The signs are all there - yes, Obi corrects but Ani is not the least bit intimidated. In fact he's pretty cheeky w/ him even when he isn't pissed.

    It makes sense - being a single parent is overwhelming and exhausting and it's tempting to try "the sof/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He would've been told once he completed his training and was ready to leave Dagobah to confront the Sith. His impatience nearly cost him.

    Knowledge such as that needs to be dealt out in a delicate manner. Luke would've never gone with Obi-wan had he known that his father was a monster. Luke would've never been able to understand why his father was a monster. Obi-wan was showing compassion for Luke by making sure that he was ready to know the full truth. It might not be the wisest course of action, but it was one that he still agreed with. Even after telling Luke what happened. Luke lets go of his anger and moves on.

    And with good reason. Anakin couldn't be rational, couldn't be calm and objective. This is why he is a monster. You can spin it any way you want, but we see that Anakin cannot deal with these things. The shadow of greed and obsession easily clouds his judgement. As it does for any Jedi who is in this situation.

    Luke didn't need a girlfriend. He has his friends and his sister in particular, to become attached to. Lucas has always maintained since 1974 that the Jedi cannot have attachments or be married. In the first draft of ANH, General Luke Skywalker tells Annikin Starkiller that his father did not adhere to the Jedi way and got married and fathered two children.

    It's not hard to love someone and be detached from them. Look at Han & Leia. Love without attachments. Han is willing to let Leia go, because he thinks that she is in love with Luke. That is compassionate and unconditional love.

    I miswrote what I said. They can have friendships. They can have initmate relations. They cannot get married and they cannot get married.

    That's why Lucas says that Qui-gon was wrong and made a dangerous decision. Ultimately, this decision was correct as Anakin was the Chosen One and fulfilled his destiny. Just not the way it could've happened. That's why Yoda and Obi-wan have that conversation at the end and we hear the Imperial March play briefly.

    Luke didn't have a choice. The will of the Force dictated that Luke le
  24. battlewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    so we can officially say that qui gon caused all this mess. thanks darth sinister you cleared it up
  25. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But Qui Gon was ultimately right. You are making out that Anakin turning to the dark side was set in stone - it wasnt. It could have been avoided. then Qui Gon would be right ALL ALONG.

    Qui Gon is made wrong for part of the saga by the Sith, the jedi and by Anakin. Had things been different then he would be right thoroughout.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.