If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

yes. in a way, i know that we cannot have that happening, but adhereing to what i said earlier, i believe it's more to do with the individual than with the knowledge itself. the knowledge is passive, it doesn't hurt people as such, it makes us smarter usually. it's people who put that stuff into action. in keeping with SW and choices... luke rushes off to bespin to help his friends and ends up learning the truth about his dad. some people argue that this was a bad move. i think it was soso, it helped him understand more things and grow up about his past. i cannot emphasize enough how much knowing that vader is his dad prolly helped him see the light.
i agree with you in principle...
let's say the obi wan had told luke the whole truth from the beginning...
do you still feel he would turn out to be a great jedi?

they deliberately held back info in order to help his progress.
he needs to have the right focus.

he can't go around thinking that his father turned evil and "killed" his mother from the very beginning.
his focus would completely messed up.

you don't know yourself until you have experienced yourself in situations and with people. by just hanging around and twiddling your thumbs you will learn nothing about who you are.
young jedi are given great responsibility and ability to learn from experience.
look at anakin in aotc.
he's not exactly twiddling thumbs...

being in a relationship also allows you to see aspects of yourself. just like being alone does etc etc. it's social learning. you cannot simply ask everyone for celibacy and then say, we will tell you when you're ready. there's no ready for relationship, there's no ready for love, it just happens.
and i argue that it's precisely this unpredictability which the jedi fear and want to do away with.
there really are only two alternatives.
either everyone is allowed to have relationships or noone is.
once you open the door for some people and close it for others, greed and jealousy will grow.

so what do you do?
i say ban relationships of that type, it's a lot safer in the long run as proven by the track record.
few actually fell victims to the dark side...

of course. having a family is part of being in the world. it's what we do. we pass our knowledge and love on to our children. we thrive on feelings.
responsibility that is only an abstract notion along with compassion is not enough.
but jedi are not exactly like us.
the closest thing we can compare them to in real life are buddhists imo -at least when it comes to the spiritual.

a jedi is not a "normal" person. they aim for something beyond the "normal" and passing life.
attachment is bad for one reason: it distracts you from your goal of reaching enlightenment. it feeds the ego, something the jedi try to destroy.

it makes no sense to start growing attachments in order to get rid of it later.
it might work for a very few people, but for most it would be counterproductive and make it even harder to get rid of the ego.

 

jvberggren
let's say the obi wan had told luke the whole truth from the beginning...
do you still feel he would turn out to be a great jedi?

good question. i suppose, yes. he would still be a person first and a jedi second. the way he finds out is pretty traumatic and he would rather kill himself than be with vader... he is pretty frightened of the whole notion as everyone would be.
in the end i think it's luke's integrity and his strength that inform his decision and that's not due to when he'S told what, that's just due to luke. the history of his family is pretty dysfunctional but had he been told in an appropriate manner about it earlier on, why not? it's hard to grasp but ultimately we all have to learn truths and things. we cannot be kept from knowledge forever.

he can't go around thinking that his father turned evil and "killed" his mother from the very beginning.
his focus would completely messed up.

why would it be? he would still be luke skywalker. he would then know more about his family and his past and he would still act out of love.
we aren't perfect with what we do, we try our best and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. holding back info can cause severly wrong choices. disinformation, and i won't back down on that, is the cause for many crimes and misconceptions. we need to do away with it.

young jedi are given great responsibility and ability to learn from experience.
look at anakin in aotc.
he's not exactly twiddling thumbs...

ha, no. he isn't. very true.
'do nothing without either consulting me or the council first' however, speaks differently of responsibility.
also i was talking of social learning, the kind you will only have when in close relationships. they ban the learning as well.

either everyone is allowed to have relationships or noone is.
once you open the door for some people and close it for others, greed and jealousy will grow.

so, allow it for everyone then. if your desire for protection is so great, then you will not train independent thinkers. if you miss understanding the mysterious ways of the human nature or what keeps us together, then you will miss out on a great many wonderful things there are.
protection at the cost of freedom is worth nothing.

attachment is bad for one reason: it distracts you from your goal of reaching enlightenment. it feeds the ego, something the jedi try to destroy.

i'm not sure you can destroy ego as such without perishing yourself.

it makes no sense to start growing attachments in order to get rid of it later.
it might work for a very few people, but for most it would be counterproductive and make it even harder to get rid of the ego.

we grow through letting go.
we grow through letting our hearts be torn from our chests time after time.
we grow through mourning our loved ones and we grow through missing them.
can't be said enough times.

 

Given the level of detail, and the back and forth on this Thread, tough to jump in the middle...*S*..so I won't really try, except to offer a few observations...

I don't think it is fair to describe Sidious as being kindly towards Anakin, or supportive, etc... or to paint the Jedi in general, or Obi-Wan in particular, as unkind, or unsupportive. Granted, we are given no more than a very small glimpse at Anakin's relationships with any of the other characters, given the limited time Lucas has to work with. Years must somehow be compressed or captured in moments. That means we must, to some extent, read into the nature of the relationships we see....

And it seems to me that far too many here are reading "seductivve' or "corrupting" as "supportive" and "kindly".

Sidious makes it EASY for Anakin. He makes no demands of him, he does not push Anakin to restrain himself, to learn discipline, to resist impulse, to mature. There is nothing kindly or supportive about telling someone they dont need to work ontheir character, they dont need to learn to control themselves, that they should indulge their temper, their violent tendencies... To ENCOURAGE someone to revel in their character flaws. He is like the toxic "friend" who tells a guy with a drinking problem that he should go ahead and drink, it is only the prudes and sticks in the mud who are making things tough for him... the "friend" who tells the guy with the violent temper that the other guy was ASKING for it (even on the hundreth bar room fight). The "friend" who tells a serial adulterer that he is only human after all... can't help himself. These people are often valued by the ones they "advise"... mainly because they validate what the person wants to hear, they justify what the person already wants to do. They make it EASY for them. "Yes, you ARE being treated unfairly!"..."Yes, they ARE all jealous of YOU!".... "You are right - their expectations are unrealistic!".... There is nothing kindly about this. Anakin doesnt need to be encouraged to lie, to have a bigger ego, to feel a greater sense of entitlement and pride... Sidious nurtures all the traits that will lead Anakin to greater pain..and his ultimate fall.

The Jedi, by contrast, are cast in the sometimes tough, sometimes thankless role of parents. Parents who are NOT "cool". They are - in PART - about teaching about limits, discipline, sacrifice, responsibility, etc. Some here want to argue that that is ALL they are about..that Anakin is shown no affection, no encouragement. I am sorry, but, repsectfully, I don't read Obi Wan that way (the other Jedi are shown interacting with Anakin only in very formal, stress filled, official settings, by and large..it is hard to judge). I think his affection...even paternal/brotherly love for Anakin comes across. That doesnt mean the Jedi are always right (just as parents arent always right, for sure!), or that we can't UNDERSTAND Anakin chafing under their restrictions. Anakin faces some very human temptations and frustrations. It is what made, for me, ROTS surprisingly compelling, and what changed how I saw Vader. Nonetheless...

It is one thing to suggest that one can see why Sidious WAS so seductive to a prideful young man...and quite another to suggest that kindness had anything to do with it...

Shadow

 

shadow jedi
i do not see it as black and white as sid is good and supportive and the jedi bad and unsupportive. i hope i have not been making that impression.

however:
I don't think it is fair to describe Sidious as being kindly towards Anakin, or supportive, etc...

i do. and he is. that he uses him to his ends is a different story. notice how anakin is around him, he never once questions his authority, whereas he constantly questions obi-wan's.

To ENCOURAGE someone to revel in their character flaws. He is like the toxic "friend" who tells a guy with a drinking problem that he should go ahead and drink

try a more relativistic view: we all need encouragement and if we don't get any, we will turn to sources that freely give it to us.

kindness has to do with it.

Some here want to argue that that is ALL they are about..that Anakin is shown no affection, no encouragement. I am sorry, but, repsectfully, I don't read Obi Wan that way

it's difficult to tell. obi-wan surely has feelings for anakin and after ten years you will have developed a relationship, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.
BUT... anakin was used to a close relationship with his mom, the jedi are distanced by nature, that's nothing i stick to obi-wan in particular, it's just how they are. anakin definitely had problems with that and prolly couldn't understand why suddenly everyone was so cold around him.

there are other things about the jedi, but these address your post best, i think.

 

Darth F:

We don't need to have our negative traits encouraged, though! You seem to overlook that. What Sidious encourages in Anakin is pride, arrogance, control, temper, etc. Encouragement, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad. Encouraged to what end? That is the key question.

Shadow

 

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[b]notice how anakin is around him, he never once questions his authority, whereas he constantly questions obi-wan's. [/b] [hr]
This is not true at all. Ani doesn't challenge Palps a lot because most of what he says is [b]what Ani wants to hear.[/b] When he does disagree w/ him - he's just as challenging as he is against his other authority figures.

"Leave him." [b]"NO! His fate will be the same as ours."[/b]

[b]"That's not true! The Jedi are selfless; the Sith think only of themselves."[/b]

Pretty easy to be a "loved" authority figure when you tell them what they want to hear. Hard to be the one who has to point out the faults and flaws.

 

What Sidious encourages in Anakin is pride, arrogance, control, temper, etc.

i don't ever see him encourage these things. when does he do so?

he acts like he has faith in anakin, something which obi-wan doesn't bring himself to.

i said that it's the end to which palps brings him which people confuse with the means. of course palps doesn't mean well. but he lets it look like he does.
obi means well, although he's simply not a very good teacher to a person like anakin, but he uses the wrong methods.

Ani doesn't challenge Palps a lot because most of what he says is what Ani wants to hear.

yeah, right, but this is the crux of the argument.
he appears to understand him better than the jedi (and he does) he tells him how much the jedi ought to have faith in him, how gifted he is... etc. but it's not a bad thing in itself. it's his method. encouragement.
he uses other things, too, that palps, sneaky bastard.

When he does disagree w/ him - he's just as challenging as he is against his other authority figures.

nope. not nearly as challenging as he is with obi-wan.

other post scrapped. comp broke down.

 

Darth F:

The trick isnt to find a time or two where Palpatine plays to Anakin's weaknesses; it is hard to find scenes in which he does NOT! *S* He encourages Anakin to kill Dooku out of a sense of revenge, tells him it is perfectly natural. He constantly tells Anakin that the Jedi are holding him back, are jealous of him, etc. He suggests Anakin should be the one to go face Grievous, playing to Anakin's pride. In nearly every scene, Sidious is pumping up Anakin's ego (and incidentally..that is not always a good thing, especially in someone already predisposed to pride!) and suggesting that the Jedi don't appreciate him, playing up Anakin's dissatisfactions and making Anakin chafe MORE under any attempts to instill discipline and restraint.

Shadow

 

jedi momma.
i lost the post i typed. it's a disaster, a catastrophe... *sobs quietly*

i consider it child abuse to assume that kids will not be able to learn the jedi philosophy unless they have been indoctrinated from birth.
luke proves it wrong and it's an assumption that holds no water whatsoever in real life, people will still be able to choose religions and belief systems even if they have outgrown their diapers.

i enjoyed reading your take on obi-wan's parenting. my view is different.
i tend to think that he was very strict from the beginning and not very helpful for anakin on the whole, him being obi-wan and very pragmatic. these two simply aren't meant to be teacher/student. not enough age difference to assume a natural authority, too much pride on anakin's side. it's not meant to be.
plus, anakin had way too much background to adjust to this temple life. it's in keeping with what i mentioned above: the jedi need clean slates to start with becasue otherwise their philosophy doesn't fly with people. and anakin's life has been as down to earth as it can get.

I don't see Anakin as unstable. He was a self-possessed, enormously gifted, confident young man who was deeply loved by at least two people.

i see him as unstable. he lashes out first chance he gets when he cannot bear the pain of losing a loved one. a whole village is extinct. call me squeamish, but i would not want that to happen to anyone.
he fantasizes about a woman he hasn't seen in ten years and wants to love her, he has trouble sleeping because the jedi don't see to it so he can see his mom on a regular basis.
one word: unstable.

i don't dispute that obi-wan loved or didn't love anakin, i think he does. i argue he has a funny way of showing it, at least to anakin.

i agree wooing padme was for himself. i have touched upon the tusken slaughter above.
none of it, for the record, is in keeping with the code. so, the code is about not doing what you want. again with the freedom.
'you will not do anything without consulting either the council or myself first' doesn't speak highly of individual decisions.

again, it's a problem that we only have this example. so i can only assess this one example.

I agree he was isolated but he didn't have to be - he should have trusted in Padme, he should have confided in Obi before he left.

i believe we have debated enough what he ought to have done. yes, i give you that. i, too, would have wanted him to speak up for himself. i just say he didn't and it's because he's afraid of it.
just like he's dependent on authority persons.

so, what's the argument again?
had the jedi even wanted to do away with their obsolete rule of no marriage, none of the disaster would have happened. or it might have lessened the impact.
as it is, anakin ought to have stood up for himself, he didn't, for reasons i've outlined. there is a mistrust issue which i cannot explain off-hand, and reluctance on his side, which i believe has to do with fear.

 

shadow.

yes, he does encourage him.

He constantly tells Anakin that the Jedi are holding him back, are jealous of him, etc.

that's rots, yes, close to the turn, he ups the ante a little.

He suggests Anakin should be the one to go face Grievous, playing to Anakin's pride.

i think i see where you're coming from.
but then: why would anakin not face grievous? why would he not be experienced enough?
you know, the trick that palps uses, rhetorically, is that he uses the existing material and spins it. so, there is an undercurrent of the jedi mistrusting him, not allowing him to be in charge. so, palps confirms stuff that is indeed happening. it's just very subtle manipulation, and he's a genius. the jedi don't manipulate, they just have no people skills.

now imagine someone who would use their good people skills and manipulate his surroundings to do good... quite the idea, isn't it. but it's still manipulation, like the jedi mind trick. it's still not a *good* method, but, if done well, it's effective.

palps was more effective, as evidenced in the movies.

 

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[b]it's his method. encouragement.[/b] [hr]
It's easy to encourage someone if you don't give a womp-rat's a$$ if they turn out well. He encourages pride and self-satisfaction - "most gifted Jedi ever" meaning - 'you have nothing left to learn,' which at that stage is patently untrue. Not pride in a job well done - which Obi has done: "Good call" , "Let's not forget you single-handedly..." but pride in self. The kind of pride that's a deadly sin.

He encourages revenge and hatred - against Dooku, also seems to have had no problem w/ the Tusken slaughter.

[hr] [b]nope. not nearly as challenging as he is with obi-wan.[/b] [hr] I'm sure he wasn't as challenging w/ Ben at first either. But Ben had to keep coming back at him - it was his job to get Ani to control himself and correct his faults. Palps backs down in both cases because he has that luxury - he has other irons in the fire (or in the lava if you will).

 

sinister
Knowledge such as that needs to be dealt out in a delicate manner.

never said otherwise.

Luke would've never been able to understand why his father was a monster. Obi-wan was showing compassion for Luke by making sure that he was ready to know the full truth. It might not be the wisest course of action, but it was one that he still agreed with.

yes, you assume automatically that the way the movie plays out is the only possible course of action. not necessarily.
so, obi-wan kept the knowledge and luke found out by himself. what was accomplished? nothing much. luke found out in a traumatic manner and rather wanted to die, but he was able to gain from it, too. i would not expect anything less from telling him straight out. what's the danger? darth vader is your dad. there's a whole story behind it, which we cannot tell you, because we feel somewhat uneasy about how it all played out, but before you die we just wanted you to know...

Anakin couldn't be rational, couldn't be calm and objective. This is why he is a monster.

yes, people who act on their feelings are our regular psychopaths. good call, sinister.
it has to do with control, not with using them as such.

Luke didn't need a girlfriend. He has his friends and his sister in particular, to become attached to.

ah, the danger of having friends and loving them.

It's not hard to love someone and be detached from them.

i tell you: it's downright impossible. you will inevitably give a toss about their well-being.

Luke didn't have a choice. The will of the Force dictated that Luke leave Tatooine.

of course he had a choice. that's the whole point of it. he said no because he felt there was still unfinished business and then found out there wasn't.
it's the point to show that he is free from worrying about loved ones, unlike his dad who had ten years of not seeing his mom and ten years to worry about her.

 

The point is that it would discourage Luke from becoming a Jedi. It would cause undue fear, anger and hate. Luke would be afraid to become a Jedi, because he would wind up like his father. There would be anger and hate at Obi-wan for letting his father fall. These negative traits are a hinderence to Luke. He will know when he's ready to fight the Sith, just not before then. Luke took off against the wishes of his Masters and found out the truth. It was only good fortune that Luke didn't turn.

Take a look at Anakin. He relied on his emotions to make decisions and turned into Vader. You tell me if it's a good thing to have feelings like that. Regular people don't have powers like that. But regular people do turn into pyschopaths or make stupid mistakes, because they act impulsively and recklessly. Those who have no mental issues can control their emotions and not be totally lead by them.

Yes, the lesson of Star Wars. Love freely and without attachment.

No says that you cannot care about their well being. What is being said is that you cannot become attached to people like Anakin became attached to Padme and Shmi. You cannot let your greed consume you. You cannot be possessive of people. You cannot obsess about them 24-7. You have to accept that they might not be there forever. You have to accept change. You have to accept nature.

You learn to accept these things, then you will be fine. This is what Anakin failed to do for so long. What Luke comes to understand and what Han & Leia do.

And Anakin was wrong to continually worry about her. Luke could've easily stayed behind on Tatooine, had the Force not intervened.

Palpatine has been doing it before ROTS. He's been doing it for thirteen years. It's done in a subtle manner so that Anakin doesn't question what Palpatine says.

Because Obi-wan has more experience and is more suited to fighting Grievous and his troops.

Palpatine causes this to happen in the first place. He plants the ideas in Anakin's head, long before it happens. Palpatine already knows that the Council will not send Anak

 

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[b] i lost the post i typed. it's a disaster, a catastrophe... *sobs quietly* [/b] [hr] We?ve all been there. [face_hugs] Consider it a lesson in patience and fortitude.

[hr] [b] i consider it child abuse to assume that kids will not be able to learn the jedi philosophy unless they have been indoctrinated from birth. [/b] [hr] Well you can consider it what you want but I don?t see how. As I said, we all indoctrinate our kids ? just in different things. If someone chooses to indoctrinate their kids in something of which you disapprove *cough consumerism cough* it?s a shame but it?s not abuse.

[hr] [b] luke proves it wrong and it's an assumption that holds no water whatsoever in real life, people will still be able to choose religions and belief systems even if they have outgrown their diapers. [/b] [hr] People can be taught to read as adults ? that doesn?t mean it?s wrong to teach children. People can learn tennis and skating and golf as adults ? does that mean the parents of Jimmy Connors, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Tiger Williams are abusive??

[hr] [b] i enjoyed reading your take on obi-wan's parenting. [/b] [hr] Yeah, I thought you might like that. [face_grin] I wonder if I?m the only one who ever came up w/ that theory?

[hr] [b] my view is different. [/b] [hr] [face_shock]

[hr] [b] i tend to think that he was very strict from the beginning? him being obi-wan and very pragmatic. [/b] [hr] I know this is the popular view but it?s just not bourne out by Anakin?s reaction. I was raised by an extremely strict (but loving) father. I know all young men go through a rebellious/separation stage (oh, I can?t wait) but I tell you my brothers? would never have reacted to a correction like Anakin. Not at 20, not even at 30!
Obi-wan, in TPM, actually reacts like a guy who was raised by a strict parent. He ?rebels? only in private and when he?s smacked down (?Get on board!?) he shuts the h*** up [b] immediately! [/b] And he makes sure he apologizes.

[hr] [b] these two simply aren't meant to be teacher/student. not enough age difference to assume a natural authority, too much pride on anakin's side. it's not meant to be. [/b] [hr] I don?t disagree. It was Qui-gon?s crisis of integrity (not leaving Anakin?s fate to the will of the Force) that forced this pairing.

[hr] [b] plus, anakin had way too much background to adjust to this temple life. [/b] [hr] I still think he could have done it. He had the Force, he had the strength, he had the resources. Another point on which we?ll probably never agree.

[hr] [b] i see him as unstable. he lashes out first chance he gets when he cannot bear the pain of losing a loved one. a whole village is extinct. [/b] [hr] He wasn?t ready to be on his own ? he still needed Ben ? he couldn?t handle the power. Obi could have and would have prevented this. He was like a child w/ a machine gun. But I think in time he would have learned control ? he would have learned patience. He was getting there.

[hr] [b] he fantasizes about a woman he hasn't seen in ten years and wants to love her, he has trouble sleeping because the jedi don't see to it so he can see his mom on a regular basis. [/b] [hr] All this could have been handled by a longer apprenticeship. Time is a greater healer than you can imagine.

[hr] [b] i don't dispute that obi-wan loved or didn't love anakin, ? he has a funny way of showing it, at least to anakin. [/b] [hr] We see them during some rough patches no doubt but it?s clear he loved him and Ani knew it. I?m sure my kids think I have a funny way of showing my love at times too.

[hr] [b] 'you will not do anything without consulting either the council or myself first' doesn't speak highly of individual decisions. [/b] [hr] This is Obi knowing that Ani was not ready to be off on his own. This is an anxious parent. ?Call me as soon as you get there? write every week? don?t make a final decision until we?ve talked it over.?

[hr] [b] had the jedi even wanted to do away with their obsolete rule of no marriage, [/b] [hr]

 

jedi momma

we all indoctrinate our kids ? just in different things. If someone chooses to indoctrinate their kids in something of which you disapprove *cough consumerism cough* it?s a shame but it?s not abuse.

yes, we all have cultural heritage. much of which we aren't aware of.
what we don't do is *force* it. we don't need clean slates, we just have kids and then bring them up according to our values. that's just normal for me. we do not ask for the little kids to be brought to us in order they believe in this one line of thinking.
they specifically ask for the kids to be so small because they believe otherwise they cannot learn their ways. nonsense. luke can and he's wayyyy older. if a philosophy is so good and mind-blowing it'll still work on people even after they are older than anakin in tpm.

People can be taught to read as adults ? that doesn?t mean it?s wrong to teach children.

indoctrination and reading are two different things. (although to some measure i should like to point out that, yes, language is a virus from outer space) molding kids to be used to a specific end (as keepers of peace and justice) is different from simply bringing them up to function in a society.
yes, you do teach your kids lying is wrong and stealing as well, but you do not keep them from the world and from other views, do you?

I know this is the popular view but it?s just not bourne out by Anakin?s reaction. I was raised by an extremely strict (but loving) father. I know all young men go through a rebellious/separation stage (oh, I can?t wait) but I tell you my brothers? would never have reacted to a correction like Anakin. Not at 20, not even at 30!

well, i cannot disprove you on your family
the truth is neither of us have a way of knowing. ten years and we have no idea what happened.
simply by what i see in aotc i can say that the way he handles the particular situation (anakin speaking out of turn *gasp*) is not going to change the situation. that's for the present. as a mentor he should either wait for anakin to change by himself (not very likely) or think of his own behaviour being part of anakin's reaction.

I still think he could have done it. He had the Force, he had the strength, he had the resources. Another point on which we?ll probably never agree.

never say never.
i don't think life in the temple is about resources and strength in itself. or adjusting to it. i feel that he wasn't welcome by the council (maybe we can discuss this a little) and that he felt that. he was different from the getgo (and that's about as neutral as i can put it) and he didn't fit in.
for me it ties in with not tolerating difference.

He wasn?t ready to be on his own ? he still needed Ben ? he couldn?t handle the power. Obi could have and would have prevented this. He was like a child w/ a machine gun. But I think in time he would have learned control ? he would have learned patience. He was getting there.

no, sorry. i cannot see how you can go from slaughtering a village and say, well, i'll be better next time. better as in quicker and faster? no way.
sorry, if he lashes out this way he's already gone. i mean, in terms of magnitude.
you could maybe say that it's myth and whole villages are nothing... but no, even then it's a crime and he understands it as such. he cannot talk about it, much less really process it.
maybe this is too RL now, but he's 20 years old. when was he gonna learn it? the chance is passed. in ten years of being with the jedi he couldn't or wouldn't control his power.

Time is a greater healer than you can imagine.

to someone as impatient as him, someone who already felt left out and like he'd miss out on adventure and actual fun, i don't think a longer apprenticeship would do anything much at all.

in real life terms he'd have needed therapy. which, yes, takes a lot of time.

We see them during some rough patches no doubt but it?s clear he loved him and Ani knew it.

yes, he loves him. on a side note: it's ju

 

sinister

Take a look at Anakin. He relied on his emotions to make decisions and turned into Vader. You tell me if it's a good thing to have feelings like that. Regular people don't have powers like that. But regular people do turn into pyschopaths or make stupid mistakes, because they act impulsively and recklessly. Those who have no mental issues can control their emotions and not be totally lead by them.

i tell you it's a good thing we have both feelings and rationale.

regular people turn into psychopaths because they act on repressed emotions. like anakin. regular people who cannot let out their emotions, like anakin cannot because the order doesn't actually encourage dealing with emotions, will have trouble. they might kill you in your sleep or do much worse things.
the problem is the knowing thyself. learn to deal with them, don't repress them.

What is being said is that you cannot become attached to people like Anakin became attached to Padme and Shmi.

yes, he loved his mom, he loved padme, he inevitably gave a **** about their well-being.
luke gave a **** about ben's well-being or his after life. he mourned him like anakin would have mourned his mom, had he been allowed to see her and actually had a chance to deal with the situation.
he cannot, they don't let him see her despite them knowing he loves her.

And Anakin was wrong to continually worry about her.

of course, sinister, tie yourself in knots over this. there was an actual death threat placed on his mom. i don't think anyone (yes, except a jedi knight learned in the high art of not giving a ****) could have just thought, ah, whatever, it's my life now. who's being unnatural now, dear?

Obi-wan has more experience and is more suited to fighting Grievous and his troops.

where does this piece of wisdom come from? your council bias?

he has to consult with the Council and Obi-wan, because they need to be informed at all times. Especially if he chooses to take Padme offworld, for whatever purpose. They need to know, so that if something were to happen to the two of them, the Jedi would at least have their last known location.

well, obi-wan can locate him without problem, can't he?
if they need him to inform them on every step of his way, then they don't trust his judgement, my dear. it's what i said.

It's not the case of choosing to become a Jedi or not. Obi-wan was taken at a very young age, almost at birth, because they have a lot of work to do. He must be able to understand the Force, which works best if you understand it right from the beginning. Luke manages, but he has trouble believing in the Force and what it can do for a Jedi. This is evident in both ANH and TESB. Obi-wan learned from birth and thus he could be effective in the field by the time he was paired up with Qui-gon. Anakin could get it because he was still at the age where he could understand the Force and believe in it.

so, suddenly, once you'Re in puberty you lose the ability to understand something as fundamental as your own body and your abilities? is that what you say?
luke simply got lucky and the jedi (obi and yoda) had simply forgotten about it?
interesting, sinister.
luke understands it. i see no reason he doesn't. he might take longer, but so what.
so, they take kids earlier because they cannot bear to not use them at the youngest age possible? how is that not child labour then?

i do love it sometimes. allow me to sum up your argument.

marriage is a path to the dark side.
friendship as well.
sex is fine as long as it doesn't keep you from doing your job.
the jedi aren't celibate but we never see any other jedi in a relationship.
the jedi have a thing for free will but they demand the kids to be so young they will not have developed the funny thing of free will so it's easier to indoctrinate them.

 

Wow. I have heard it all now.

Teaching our children from a young age to love, honor and respect their parental figures, to be compassionate to those around them, to be patient as they learn and grow, to be obedient to their teachers, to be unselfish, to be virtuous and honest...

... it's all child abuse.

 

i knew you'd understand.

 

Anakin has feelings. He has no rationale. Most humans don't use rationale.

The point is not to repress them, the point is to let them go. To train yourself to not be afraid. To not have anger. To not have hate. Anakin doesn't want to do and pays for it.

Again, you miss it. Loving them is what is allowed. What's not allowed is becoming obsessive, possessive, jealous, fearful, angry and hateful.

Compassionate love=No attachments. There is happiness. There is love. There is encouragement. There is understanding. There is acceptence.

Possessive love=Attachments. There is selifishness. There is greed. There is uncontrolled and dangerous emotions. Like those listed above.

Anakin confuses the two and this is why he turns out the way he does. You can care about someone, you just need to show restraint. You need to exercise control. And be willing to accept nature's change.

There was no death threat. She was taken from her home, because she was too stupid for her own good. The Jedi care, but they also know that it was something that is not the end of the world. They accept death. It was her time to go. There was nothing Anakin could've done to stop it. And worrying about it all the time is counter productive. Anakin was attached to the past and couldn't accept that things have changed. His mother is dead. It's time to move on.

A Jedi accepts greif and then lets it go. They do not dwell on the negative. They look at the positive.

No, common sense and the fact that he did succeed. There's no biased. Obi-wan is a thirty eight year old Jedi Master. He has experience in both combat and negotiation. A proven leader of men. He also has control of his emotions, which Anakin has yet to master.

There's also the fact that Anakin could be blown up or his tracking device is shut off or damaged. Or removed and sent somewhere else, while he's captured. Obi-wan trusts Anakin to a degree, but he is also weary of the fact that the boy is known to do implusive and reckless things.

Look back at his training.

 

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[b]we just have kids and then bring them up according to our values. that's just normal for me... we do not ask for the little kids to be brought to us in order they believe in this one line of thinking.[/b] [hr] It's the same thing! You can't see that? One of my kids is adopted - other than the fact that she doesn't look like the rest of her siblings, you would never know it. If she had been brought into our family at 9, or 13 or 18, from a very different background, she would have had a much tougher time assimilating. Not impossible but really hard. I said it before - if you dumped a lot of kids in my household right now - they would freak out. We don't watch much TV, instead we have family reading nights, we don't consume [b]any fast food[/b], we do volunteer work, I expect clean rooms and attendance at church. And so on. Other parents consider me [i]abnormal[/i] but I just expect a lot of my kids - just like the Jedi. I believe I have the right - I believe the parents who handed their kids over to the Jedi [i]had that same right.[/i]

[hr][b]....luke can and he's wayyyy older. if a philosophy is so good and mind-blowing it'll still work on people even after they are older than anakin in tpm...[/b][hr] Yes, it can. But many discliplines are better taught young. When all the neuron pathways in the brain are still open.

[hr] [b]molding kids to be used to a specific end (as keepers of peace and justice) is different from simply bringing them up to function in a society[/b].[hr] No! No Different! Different only in your mind! (Sorry, I couldn't resist. [face_grin] ) They are being brought up to function in [i]their [/i] society. A society which is very strange to us but no stranger than the Amish or some Native American tribes. No different than getting a five year old up every morning before dawn to practice tennis or golf or skating and preparing them for a life as a pro athlete.

[hr] [b]yes, you do teach your kids lying is wrong and stealing as well, but you do not keep them from the world and from other views, do you?[/b] [hr] In same cases yes. I've never taken them inside a Walmart or a McDonald's. Pretty strange, huh? Yes. Abuse? No.

[hr] [b](anakin speaking out of turn *gasp*) is not going to change the situation. that's for the present. as a mentor he should either wait for anakin to change by himself (not very likely) or think of his own behaviour being part of anakin's reaction.[/b] [hr]
Anakin is pushing to take the trials - yet he shows a complete lack of understanding of the Jedi way of handling assignments and public appearances. And he will not accept a correction. Again [b]he invited the stronger response [/b]through his behavior.

If Ani truly wanted to handle this assignment differntly - why not discuss it w/ Obi beforehand? It would have been a more productive use of "elavator time" than sweating and re-arranging his cloak.

And you're right Anakin is not going to change by himself and Obi knows it. I thnk Obi does consider his past handling of Ani as a mistake and is cracking down harder here to correct that.

[hr] [b]welcome by the council (maybe we can discuss this a little) and that he felt that.[/b] [hr]
There was that awful scene before the council but I have my own feelings about why that got so out of countrol but once he was accepted into the Order I see nothing that says he wasn't welcomed. Obviously Mace and Yoda though very highly of him in AOTC. (Too highly as it turned out.)

[hr] [b]for me it ties in with not tolerating difference.[/b] [hr] They are a very structured society - I will give you that. But they tolerated many "cultural" differences (Ki-Adi was married, Ayala dressed like a.. well made interesting clothing choices) Jinn was allowed his idocyncracies. But ALL these people had to stand up for their right to be different. Otherwise it is assumed that you will fall into line. You think it was the Jedi's job to figure out that Anakin needed to be treated differenty. I've laid out why I think it was Anakin's place to spe

 

Actually, it would've been helpful. He wouldn't have gotten so out of control. The mistake the Council made was thinking that Anakin was ready to be a Knight. He wasn't. He didn't really pass his trial on Prestalyn (sp). He hadn't obtained a grasp on his emotions or learned to be detached. They took it on faith that he had succeeded. More time with Obi-wan would've been helpful.

 

^^^I doubt it has anything to do with the length of the training . the Guy should not even be trained as a Jedi to begin with. they don't trust him , never have , and they all feel uneasy with him. so why did the Jedi allow this to continue?. this is something that is confusing about the PT. the Jedi don't even really believe in the Prophecy. but they still choose to train this Clouded, angry, fearful boy?. why?.

 

Duggy,
i would say the Jedi are skeptical of the prophecy, not that they don't believe it. Obi Wan, I tend to think, believes the prophecy to the point where he says then you are lost.

 

The Jedi can be cautious about the prophecy and what it means and they can question whether Anakin really is the Chosen One and still have hope in the prophecy.

But after all is lost, I think the Jedi placed all their hope in the twins, in particular, Luke.

 

The Jedi can be cautious about the prophecy and what it means and they can question whether Anakin really is the Chosen One and still have hope in the prophecy.

that's fine , but i really never saw anybody really stand up for the Prophecy and Anakin as the Chosen one till ObiWan's " is he not the chosen one... " speech. i never really believed that the Jedi had enough faith in the Prophecy. they seem to want to Question it and Anakin's relevance to it , too much.


But after all is lost, I think the Jedi placed all their hope in the twins, in particular, Luke.

They did that because they realize they had , and lost the Chosen one. due to they're faults and due to his Faults. and they leaned what not to do while doing so.