If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. halfwits-r-us Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2005
    star 4


    I like that analysis duggy, also remember that Qui Gon was really the first and ultimate proponent of the Prophecy, I think that's why Obi Wan had so much faith in the prophecy.
  2. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    that's fine , but i really never saw anybody really stand up for the Prophecy and Anakin as the Chosen one till ObiWan's " is he not the chosen one... " speech. i never really believed that the Jedi had enough faith in the Prophecy. they seem to want to Question it and Anakin's relevance to it , too much.
    perhaps the chosen one isn't matching up to their image of what the chosen one should be like?
    anakin sure is powerful, and i believe that's why they have some faith in him.

    but he's not exactly equally wise...
    perhaps that's why they are starting to doubt that he's the chosen one?

    i dunno really. just speculating, but there seems to be two distinct qualities about anakin -each pulling in opposite directions.

    in the end, the prophecy is just another vision, and visions can be misleading...
    they can even be altered in time.

    you shouldn't build a future based entirely on visions.
    anakin taught us that.

    "careful you must be when sensing the future anakin".
    i would say yoda practices what he preaches in this case.
  3. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4


    Mace stood up for it and Anakin in AOTC. How ironic.
  4. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Seriously, Mace does a 180 on Anakin in ROTS. He can sense that something's not right. "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. I see...Mace Windu in the clouds...he's in pain"
  5. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    Mace stood up for it and Anakin in AOTC. How ironic.


    Yes, it is Ironic. but that does not mean he believes in the Prophecy though.
  6. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Classic post
  7. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    But he stood up for it nonetheless, he once had faith. That seriously contradicts this whole "Mace had it in for Anakin" theory a lot of people have - he didn't just mistrust him for the colour of his eyes, Anakin himself created that mistrust. RotS gives us more then enough examples of why someone would lose their trust in him.

    - O_F
  8. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But you must admit the impression you get about MAce is that he never really trusts Anakin and didnt ever want him in the order.

    All the descriptions I have read say that Mace didnt want hi to be a jedi in TPM and was very septical. I have read in the SW magazine description of ROTS that Mace doesnt have faith in Anakin thus doesnt have Anakin with him and the posse.

    If you look in Stover's novel you can see that he shared the same opinions. Anakin makes many comments about Mace and vise verser.

    Its certainly the impression I got from the films. Mace was sceptical and mistrusting of Anakin in TPM. In AOTC he mentions that he may be the one to bring balance but thats just stating the facts because of the growing dark side.

    In ROTS though there is clearly tension between the two. We see it in the council, we see it when Mace is talking to Yoda and Kenobi, we see it when Mace asks Anakin to monitor Palpatines response to the news that Kenobi has found Grievous (watch his glance at Anakin as he walks away) and we certainly see it when Anakin sides with Sidious.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Not in AotC, there's nothing he does there that implies such a thing - if anything, it's the opposite. Anakin and him adress each other about Padme leaving Coruscant, Mace sticks up for him against Obi-Wan, Mace cares about the disturbance that Anakin sends out when he lost his mom, Mace adresses him and Anakin listens to him when Obi-Wan gets abducted, Mace asks Obi-Wan where Anakin is at the end.

    They seem like ordinary collegues, even friendly ones - "You heard what Master Windu said, he gave me strict orders!. "...As powerful as Master Windu".

    Not at first, but he does at the end - only Yoda opposes it for the entire movie.

    "Agree with you the Council does"

    I agree about RotS, but again - Mace has reasons for the way he feels about Anakin, RotS goes out of its way to establish why.

    - O_F
  10. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    O_F, totally agree with you. I'm not sure why Mace is usually
    painted in such a fashion. IMO it's unwarranted.
    In ROTS Ani's behaviour definitely warrants a loss of trust, from
    all involved and not just Mace.
  11. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I actually agree with the opinions shown on the OS databank this time:

    Windu was well schooled in Jedi philosophy and history. He knew of the ancient prophecy of the Chosen One who would return balance to the Force. When maverick Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn approached the Council with a prospective candidate to fulfill that prophecy, Windu was hesitant. With reservations, he agreed that the child, Anakin Skywalker, could be tested for Jedi potential.

    Though Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count on record, and indeed showed great potential, the Council and Windu decided that he was not to be trained. He was too old to begin the life of a Jedi. After Qui-Gon's death, the Council rescinded their original decision, and granted Obi-Wan Kenobi permission to train Anakin Skywalker. Still, Windu fostered a mistrust of Skywalker, feeling that he was too powerful for his age and too unpredictable.

    It was Anakin Skywalker who loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, though the Jedi Master still did not fully trust the young Jedi. Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor. Though Skywalker wished to accompany Windu, the Jedi Master forbade it. He ordered Skywalker to stay in the Council chambers until the matter was resolved.


    These views are reflected in most sources that dexcribe the events of the saga and Windu as well as in the novels etc.

    It was certainly the impression I got from the first time I watched TPM to the time I saw Windu lose faith in the chosen one.
  12. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Have you read Shatterpoint? I'll guarantee you that you'll understand my point far better, also i think AotC contradicts the OS in this case - it's Obi Wan who feels that way about Anakin in AotC, Mace and Yoda stick up for the boy. They're right that Mace feels that way when we come to RotS, but he had faith in him once upon a time.

    If you recount all of the Anakin/Mace moments in AotC, you cannot tell me they're the same as in RotS [face_peace]

    - O_F
  13. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "I saw Windu lose faith in the chosen one."

    Yes and by ROTS that loss of faith was deserved.
    Prior to that Mace and others had reservations about Anakin due
    to his age, what they sensed in him etc..can they be blamed for
    that? IMO no b/c in the end they were right on the money and if
    they held to those reservations maybe Vader would have never come
    to be. Despite their misgivings they gave Ani chances to prove
    himself, he failed in the end.
    Any mistrust is not malicious in nature, it's due to sensing danger
    around Ani and being leery of allowing him to have too much power
    too soon. Rightfully so!
  14. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    If you recount all of the Anakin/Mace moments in AotC, you cannot tell me they're the same as in RotS

    It neither here nor there in AOTC. Mace hasnt lost faith in the prophecy but he doesnt mean that he trusts Anakin fully. All he says is that "if the prophecy is true blah blah blah" and for the rest of the film he just makes orders. He doesnt give away what he is thinking.

    The big difference from AOTC to ROTS was Windu's trust of Palpatine. he was only to happy to have Anakin seek advice from Palpatine but then three years later that trust has all but gone.

    But as an individual, I think he was always mistrusting of Anakin.
  15. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "The big difference from AOTC to ROTS was Windu's trust of Palpatine. he was only to happy to have Anakin seek advice from Palpatine but then three years later that trust has all but gone."

    - Again, rightfully so.

    "But as an individual, I think he was always mistrusting of Anakin."

    - Your opinion. It's not mine. I think Mace and others dealt with
    Ani in the best way they could given the danger they sensed around
    him. IMO prior to ROTS their feelings were more worrisome or
    trepidatious than out and out mistrust.

  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I think Anakin was a good man. I think you could trust him. The problem was Anakin lost faith in the council. He began to mistrust them - in some cases, rightly so.

    Anakin is different from the other Jedi. Where the other Jedi would sacrifice one another for their duty, Anakin would not. He would never let Kenobi or his friends die. Thats where the jedi screw up with him.

    They get Anakin to do things that they surely know is against his character. He's bound to lose his trust in them. Kenobi knows this.

    I think had the Jedi been fairer with Anakin and trusted him then he would have returned the trust.

    With Windu's mind set on Anakin being untrustworthy its no wonder he ended up betraying him. It was inevitable.
  17. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    ROTS Novel, page 230.

    Kenobi:

    "Yes," he said slowly, "Thats why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
    He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.
    "And I'm not entirely sure he should".
  18. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "I think Anakin was a good man. I think you could trust him. The problem was Anakin lost faith in the council. He began to mistrust them - in some cases, rightly so"

    Oh the ole poor Ani he's not to blame at all theory? lol
    Obviously he could not be trusted, he rarely told the truth
    especially after EPII. He hid his marriage even from his best
    friend/father figure [Obi-Wan]. Ani lost faith in the council
    b/c Palps planted seeds of doubt and Ani was not happy they
    would not bend and cater to him as he wished. Ani's need for
    power and recognition is obvious even prior to ROTS.
    How anyone can explain his actions away by pointing fingers at
    the Jedi who Ani basically lied to over and over is beyond me.
    Oh, let's not forget he helped slaughter them in the end.
    Yeah, he was good man ;)
  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Well, im sorry but he was a good man, despite your winks making a compelling argument [face_plain] . Like anyone, he had made mistakes. But covering up his marriage etc wasnt evil, it was but dangerous.

    At the start of ROTS we see that he is still very similar to the little boy on Tatooine - eager to help a clone in trouble, risking his life and duty to save Obi Wan, suggesting patiance as a way to succeed etc.

    Anakin was a good man. He was sick of all the deception.

    Then Sidious spun his web and the jedi threw Anakin straight into it. Anakin wasnt strong enough to resist the spider.

    Another Jedi in his situation may not have lost trust in the council. But Anakin is not some other Jedi. He is more interested in people than principles. He is fiercly loyal. So when the jedi start to push him away, show their mistrust in him and ask him to do things which they should know go against his very nature he begins to turn against them.

    And I dont think the jedi were to blame for everything. Thats ridiculous. Sidious was the #1 to blame. Anakin made terrible choices and was very weak. But the Jedi shoulder some of the blame too - in this instance especially.
  20. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but your theory of "anakin was a selfish SOB who only cared about himself and he didnt love padme or obi wan and was 100% responsible for everything that happened" is worst than shaitan's.

    and yes,he was a good man before he turned to vader,obi wan says so,GL says so,its not debateable anymore.
  21. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Beheading a defenseless former Jedi?

    Anakin not being the same as a Jedi isn't a good thing, he's supposed to put duty above Obi-Wan - that's exactly why the Council doesn't coddle him. Because he needs to learn to seperate that, he needs to understand the difference.

    He IS a good man, but he's not selfless - he's quick to anger, he's deceptive and he's arrogant. Mace doesn't trust him for a reason. And to say "It's no wonder he ended up betraying him" doesn't make sense if you also want to claim Anakin's a good person.

    He and Mace butted heads in RotS, moreso than any other Jedi - but the betrayal was a horrible thing and not something Mace deserved or Anakin wanted to do. That's sort of what i'm talking about, i understand why people see this rift between them - but i think it's taking it way too far to say "it's no wonder he betrayed him".

    - O_F
  22. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "He is more interested in people than principles"

    No, he is more interested in his own agenda.
    All the 'good' he does is not b/c he's such a pure hearted
    good man, it's b/c he loves the recognition of being the hero.
    He loves to be held in high esteem and seen as the savior.
    It's all part of his lust for power, it makes him feel powerful
    to be depicted as the great Jedi warrior/hero.
    He's not some altruistic sensitive soul.
    There are times when he tries to behave a certain why, good way,
    b/c he knows he should, but again it's not done for purely
    good selfless reasons. He does show loyalty to Obi-Wan, but
    how quickly that fades and we see way more evidence of his
    resentment of Obi than his reverence of him.
    No matter how Ani was let down, played, manipulated etc.. he was
    still a grown man in ROTS who was more than capable of seeing
    right from wrong and making proper decisions based on that.


    "and yes,he was a good man before he turned to vader,obi wan says so,GL says so,its not debateable anymore"

    He had some good qualities, but it's evident he had his agendas and
    he was never purely selfless in nature. He tried, but in the end he
    gave into what he really wanted - power. Palps just opened the door
    for him, Ani practically dove through it IMO.
  23. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Beheading a defenseless former Jedi?

    Anakin not being the same as a Jedi isn't a good thing, he's supposed to put duty above Obi-Wan - that's exactly why the Council doesn't coddle him. Because he needs to learn to seperate that, he needs to understand the difference.


    What Anakin did to Dooku was wrong. But he's had these tendancies for a while. they are his dark side. But at this point Anakin is a good man and could avoid the turn, but Sidious keeps making sure he continues to walk down the dark path. As I said, Anakin was weak, but he was not evil at this point.

    He's supposed to put duty above all else, yes, but he cant. Thats not his character. Its down to his life experiences. It doesnt make him evil. But the jedi should know this. They know what he's like. So when they ask him to do things that go against this nature of course its going to cause problems.

    He IS a good man, but he's not selfless - he's quick to anger, he's deceptive and he's arrogant. Mace doesn't trust him for a reason. And to say "It's no wonder he ended up betraying him" doesn't make sense if you also want to claim Anakin's a good person.

    Im not suggesting Anakin is an angel. But no Jedi really does anything in ROTS to prevent his turn to the dark side. They merely add to it. They should know by now what Anakin is like. It would be unfair to ask a man with no legs to run a marathon so he can raise enough money for a memorial site, like its unfair to ask Anakin to do something thats impossible for him to comprehend. By the time Anakin feels betrayed by the jedi, its inevtiable that he will betray them.

    He and Mace butted heads in RotS, moreso than any other Jedi - but the betrayal was a horrible thing and not something Mace deserved or Anakin wanted to do. That's sort of what i'm talking about, i understand why people see this rift between them - but you're taking it too far with "it's no wonder he betrayed him".

    Absolutely. It was a big mistake and Anakin knew it. But by this time the damage was done. Had he still trusted the Jedi and had they trusted him when he went into the office would he have betrayed Mace? Impossible to say.

    My point was, themeatically,when someone is so clearly mistrusted as Anakin was, you know that there is nothing holding them to these people thus he will probably betray them himself.
  24. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    he constantly save obi wan's rear only to get the recognition.[face_plain]
    he rescued the chancellor just to get recognition.[face_plain]
    he became the hero of the wars only for recognition,not because he wanted to serve the jedi,the republic and because he wanted a safe galaxy for his family[face_plain]

    the only time he actually wants something is when he wants to be a master.

    so this "he loves to be seen as the savior,he loves to be held in high esteem,he only cares about himself,he is a greedy SOB who only wants power..bla bla bla..." theory has no basis and clearly shows that you are biased towards the topic.


    an entire galaxy couldnt see past palpatine's deception and yet anakin is the only one to blame.thats rich.wow,just wow [face_plain]
  25. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Mace could have arrested Jango, but chose to behead the single father anyway.

    Anakin's act against Dooku was one of revenge, so that is wrong. But a Jedi should always act out of compassion and never kill when they dont have to. Well, Mace did but he doesnt get reprimanded for it. He may be able to let things like that pass through his life, but in essence, the act is as wrong as Anakins.
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