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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. mynameismyown

    mynameismyown Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 7, 2005
    i'd like to really hear lucas' opinion on this subject
     
  2. SashaSkywalker

    SashaSkywalker Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I too found the PT Jedi to be arogant, rigid and dogmatic in their ways, not at all what I expected from seeing Obi Wan in the OT. And they let themselves be pawns in politics. They knew things were not right as early as TPM (force gets clouded, Republic gets more rotten by the minute), but all I could see was this "let`s see and wait what`s gonna happen"-approach.
    Sure there may be little to be done but it`s still better than nothing.

    And they did make mistakes in their teaching of Anakin.
    However the choice to turn to evil, to murder younglings etc. which he knew deep down was not right, was Anakin`s in the end. He still chose evil.
    And yeah that puts most of the blame on his shoulders.

    What I find so frustrating is that maybe that could have been avoided if certain factors didn`t come into play. Anakin was inherently evil or something. The confused, emotionally immature and to a degree selfish person that he was in ROTS was the product of his life`s experiences and upbringing until then.
    If Anakin had learned how to cope with things better, he might not have gone all crazy over his fear for Padme. And IMO the Jedi didn`t help him with that, because their trusted formula of "letting go" did not work on him. He just repeated the Jedi code of "attachment is forbidden" and so on but clearly had no grasp of the concept. The years with his mother made him different in ways that the Jedi did not take into account.
    Just like he didn`t get their code of conduct, they didn`t get him.

    Anyway I don`t think they deserved to be slaughtered or somesuch but something had to happen IMO to shake the Jedi out of their stagnation. Anakin just went about it at the most painful way for the Jedi, himself and the galaxy at large.

     
  3. mynameismyown

    mynameismyown Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 7, 2005
    the jedi really didnt know how to train someone who had formed attachments, i dont know that they really could
     
  4. brook_33

    brook_33 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 30, 2003
    Yes, that is true.
     
  5. mynameismyown

    mynameismyown Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 7, 2005
    the jedi did try there best to warn anakin of the dangers of emotional attachments, since those things lead to the dark side, really what could they do?
     
  6. mynameismyown

    mynameismyown Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 7, 2005
    by the way i dont like that the jedi may have had a hand in messing anakin up. but it is there in that the jedi did yank anakin from his parent and kept him from her when she needed him. i wonder if that was what lucas intended though
     
  7. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Apr 23, 2005
    I don't like it either , but denying it exists is no answer either. and lots of people don't see it. at all.
     
  8. mynameismyown

    mynameismyown Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 7, 2005
    i wonder if lucas intentionally wrote it that way though, ive never really read or heard that he thought the jedi order was messed up
     
  9. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Apr 23, 2005
    Well idon't have all the Quotes like Darth Sinister does, but they do exist. i am not making it up. Maybe he can post a couple of examples .
     
  10. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 27, 2005
    Lucas has never once been quoted as blaming the Jedi for Anakin's fall. His quotes always surround Anakin's greed.

    Perhaps the Jedi should have requested Republic funding to initiate a public program that could address Anakin's needs better since he was such a special case, right DUGGY?

    Or he could have sued the Council for not letting him "be himself". He felt like he had to hide his differences and was so ashamed of himself. He didn't want to feel guilty anymore - he just wanted to have his way and legally force the Jedi to accept it. I mean, just because he thinks and behaves like a sith doesn't mean he doesn't still have the right to be the best Jedi ever.

    He should be allowed to be in charge of the Council even if he behaves like a Sith. It's not fair!

    :mad:
     
  11. BrideofVader

    BrideofVader Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 18, 2005
    Um, yeah, they do. Big honkin' ones too.

    If it had been a case of they did everything right and still failed, it would not have made any sense at all. No, they only thought they were doing it right, sticking to old tried and true ways, unable to adapt to the world changing around them, under their noses, and being totally apathetic to this change. "It is done, then."
     
  12. DUGGY

    DUGGY Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Apr 23, 2005
    Lucas has never once been quoted as blaming the Jedi for Anakin's fall. His quotes always surround Anakin's greed.

    Perhaps the Jedi should have requested Republic funding to initiate a public program that could address Anakin's needs better since he was such a special case, right DUGGY?


    Don't twist my words around O.k. Ewok! o_O . I said Lucas has been quoted as saying the Jedi were Complacent , made some errors. i never said he said they to blame. but he did say they were not what they once were. the novel say's it . get over it already . you sound like a person in denial. [face_frustrated]

    Or he could have sued the Council for not letting him "be himself". He felt like he had to hide his differences and was so ashamed of himself. He didn't want to feel guilty anymore - he just wanted to have his way and legally force the Jedi to accept it. I mean, just because he thinks and behaves like a sith doesn't mean he doesn't still have the right to be the best Jedi ever.

    He should be allowed to be in charge of the Council even if he behaves like a Sith. It's not fair!


    Again you misconstrude my points!.I never said anything like he should get his way. just some attention. You just don't like that they made errors. Plain and simple. go back to sleep.
     
  13. Salacious_Spock

    Salacious_Spock Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2005
    The Jedi were stilted,
    next question.. ;)
     
  14. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 27, 2005
    Anakin was given a lot of attention. Your points have always been that the Jedi did not help him get what he wants, they didn't let him be a master, they didn't let him openly have his attachments.

    I've read and understood your points and I counter them.

    I have stated on this board why I believe the Jedi fell and what the underlying cause was. But it has nothing to do with Anakin's personal fall. That is on Anakin.

    The Jedi attempted to adapt at the last minute and it was too late. And when they tried to adapt, they are faulted for it. They are faulted when they would not adapt; and they are faulted when they try to adapt.

    I fault the Jedi for complacency regarding the political climate throughout the Republic. I don't blame them on iota for Anakin's fall.
     
  15. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    if you did understand the points, you wouldn't counter them.

    if they had given him attention, he would have repaid them in kind.

    anakin's fall is anakin's, the jedi order's fall was theirs, palps rise was his.

    yeah, right. maybe you did see some other PT after all.

    i know you cannot accept that the jedi order has anything to do with anakin. he is their member and yet all they can come up with, after he speaks out of turn *gasp* is shutting him up.
    all they can come up with is, oh, he's been consumed by the dark side. let's kill him.

    of course, his stay with the order has nothing to do with anything, since they are so good and virtuous and flawless that there is nothing ever wrong with them.

    after all, making kids zombies must be a good thing, it'll spare them the gift of love and also the much dreaded attachment. terrible, terrible.

    duggy, thank you for this thread. *bows*
     
  16. Salacious_Spock

    Salacious_Spock Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2005
    I stand by my original post.
    It's a bit of a non-starter really..
     
  17. DS_Emp_Viper

    DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Well you should because besides Anakin and Palps, there numero Uno on the list thats responsible.

    They call him there Chosen One but they don't trust him or support him.

    They preach of "letting go", yet they've never had anything to lose since they STARTED there childhood as jedi.

    They are foolish, and offer Anakin no other choice. "Shes gonna die, too bad for you, get over it"
     
  18. THEFORCEROCKS

    THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2004


    [b]They are foolish, and offer Anakin no other choice. "Shes gonna die, too bad for you, get over it"[/b]


    They are foolish? and what other choice is there Emp Viper. Also since ANakin is the CHosen ONe could he not have meditated more on how she dies not that she dies. I think that might have helped the situation out if he couldve seen himself in the vision.
     
  19. DS_Emp_Viper

    DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2001
     
  20. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2005
    They are foolish? and what other choice is there Emp Viper. Also since ANakin is the CHosen ONe could he not have meditated more on how she dies not that she dies. I think that might have helped the situation out if he couldve seen himself in the vision.

    he is worried and all he gets is, get over it, it happens to everyone.

    it's the equivalent of telling a kid after this kid's pet has been involved in some hit and run accident, oh well, we'll just buy a new one.

    it's never gonna do the trick.

    likewise, saying, well, you know, mourning ain't our business, we can't have people emoting at feeling pain all the time, is just never gonna cut it for anyone in that situation.

    ever been in love, ever had someone you cared about, ever worried about someone's well-being? bingo, multiply that a hundredfold, and that's the fear of loss.
     
  21. THEFORCEROCKS

    THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2004


    [b]Anakin didn't know he would end up being cut into pieces on Mustafar, or that he would himself choke padme.[/b]


    Well whose fault is that "Use the force ....think."

    A
    [hr][b]nd what other vision would he have seen? He saw his mother dieing in AOTC and didn't that end up happening? You seem to think because you know what happens that makes it ok for the jedi to give bogus info.[/b]
    What bogus info are you talking about Viper?


    [hr][b]What other choice is there? How about Yoda opens his mind and asks who Anakin wants to save[/b]
    ?

    Thats what he did Viper? and Anakin covered up, just be honest and tell Yoda its about padme and forget about being expelled from the order.
    Maybe they could work from there and try to find a way.
    What way Viper?


    [hr][b]But what Yoda says is that there is no way. There is no escape for his dreams, and that Anakin could not except. And nor would you however blinded you are by the supposed "wiseness of the jedi[/b]
    [hr]
    "


    And Yoda is right but he does not say there is no way. He says let go of all that you fear to lose Viper what does Vaderkin do in ROTJ tell me Viper what does he do. Also i am not blinded by the wiseness of the JEDI this is not a JEDI thing, if that is the case then everybody must be blinded since Anakin lets go anyway in ROTJ.
     
  22. Dobermann

    Dobermann Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    "Always in motion is the future."

    If Anakin had been wiser things might have turned out a bit better.
     
  23. EwokThatKilled

    EwokThatKilled Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2005
    As a trained Jedi, Anakin should know not to focus on the future and that it is dangerous.

    I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the Jedi are personally supposed to stop death so they can help Anakin.

    If Anakin truly loved Padme, he would listen to her. He would trust her. He would honor and respect her and actually put her in front of everything else.

    He still puts his own career and quest for power first, as if those things are going to prevent her from dying. It's ridiculous.

    And isn't it fascinating that the danger Padme is in is caused by Anakin. I'm not talking about the self-fulfilling prophecy... I'm talking about the fact that he believes she is going to die from giving birth. He got her pregnant - so in his mind, he is already responsbile and is trying to ensure his mistake can be corrected and that no further harm comes to her. We all know the irony of the outcome... but before realizing it, Anakin already fears she is going to die from labor.

    How are Yoda and Obi-Wan supposed to help Anakin with his problem if he is so vague and withholding the truth? If he were honestly compassionate he would have had no problems telling Yoda, "Look I messed up and Senator Amidala is my wife and she is pregnant. I dreamed she was going to die in childbirth. I realize this has consequences for my role as a Jedi, but I need your help and will do anything to save her. Can you help me?"

    That would prove Anakin was willing to put her ahead of his career, his own self-interests. But because he has a possessive love for her, he's not thinking about exposing his mistakes to save her. He's only thinking about protecting himself and his quest for greater power so he can "save" her in secret.

    If I had information that would enable those who could help me save someone I loved, even if that information would expose wrong-doing on my part, I would let go of my pride and reveal everything I needed to in order to get the help I was seeking.

    Ironic that Anakin would actually risk Padme because he could not let go of his other attachments. It is proof his love for her was not pure. He just can't see his greed is killing her.

    So I do not blame Yoda one bit for Anakin's plight. Anakin's dreams were spawned by his own fear of being exposed. He didn't have the dreams until Padme told him about the pregnancy, and he had the dream after they spoke about being discovered. Anakin's fear caused the dream and his fear prevented him from telling the truth. The truth would have saved her. It may have meant Anakin would be compelled to leave the Order, but he could have still been with the one he loved and protected her - raised a family with her like she begged him to do.

    So no, this was not the Jedi's fault.


     
  24. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    i know it's futile to write this, but i'll give it a shot anyway:

    if you are so compelled to have us believe that they cannot stop death (which is so very true i'll stop bothering to agree with it henceforth), how would yoda's advice have changed if anakin had been more open?

    how are you going to solve this puzzle?

    and the other one:

    in AOTC, when obi-wan knows who the dreams are about and whose well-being anakin is worried about, why is his advice also so strangely lacking in compassion and the other little things that you claim the jedi order shares with their members in abundance?
     
  25. Dobermann

    Dobermann Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    People blaming the Jedi to any great extent are clutching at straws. The major factors in his fall are the Chancellor's corruption of him and his attachment to Padme. Both which the Jedi have no knowledge of to any great extent until its too late.

    I agree that the Jedi are not perfect. If they were the Galaxy would already be a wonderful perfect place. But they can't be held responsible either for Anakin's fall when there was very little that could have been done to prevent it when they didn't even know about it.
     
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