If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by DUGGY, Oct 24, 2005.

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  1. Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Mace killed Jango, a bounty hunter shooting and killing Jedi, in the midst of a battle where the Jedi were outnumbered and fading fast.

    Anakin killed a man who was on his knees and didn't have hands.

    Unless Mace had a dragonball Z capsule hidden in his pocket in which he could arrest and contain Jango, then i really fail to see the comparison. Jango had to go because there was no alternative, how would Mace have ever arrested him?

    Was Obi supposed to arrest Maul and Grievous? Was Anakin supposed to arrest Palpatine in RotJ? Was Luke supposed to land in the Death Star and arrest Tarkin and his lackeys?

    - O_F
  2. jvberggren Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    Mace could have arrested Jango, but chose to behead the single father anyway.
    you need to explain how he could do that...

    i'm definately with obif. on this one.

    noone ever complained about luke killing all those people in rotj when they were on the sand sail boats.
    should he've gone for multiple arrests in that situation MS?

    is that what you're saying..

  3. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Mace could have arrested Jango, but chose to behead the single father anyway"

    lol that's almost funny.
    They were in the heat of battle at the time and Jango was killing
    others. I'm kind of baffled by the statement to be honest.

    "and clearly shows that you are biased towards the topic."

    No, it's my opinion and I am as entitled to have one as you are.
    I don't see Ani as the selfless good ole boy a lot of you do
    and I certainly don't see others to blame more than he is.
    He made his choices, no matter what was in front of his face he
    is the one who chose to complete the actions regardless of the
    consequences. The Jedi don't trust me, I'm so alone..whine whine..
    I think I'll go against everything I ever knew and kill kids!
    Sure, that's understandable :)
  4. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    It seems to me people are taking one single plot device - a device bourne purely out of the necessity to illustrate how warped Anakin's reasoning had become - and are applying it to the saga left, right and centre.

    Anakin kills a man with no hands who is totally at his mercy.
    Then later on Anakin is duped into making a certain connection - "hey, now Palpatine is that 'man with no hands', this is wrong".
    That is all that this device is there for.

    Mace killing Jango in AOTC is just a villain getting killed because his dumb rocket pack fails to work.
    Yay! The dumb bounty hunter is dead!
    End of story - no repercussions, no suggestion of reprimand for Mace, it just isn't touched on and isn't an issue.

    As was pointed out above: try telling Ponda Baba, Dr Evazan, countless "single-parent" Weequays and other assorted cronies throughout the saga that Jedi are duty-bound to give them a clip around the ear and send them on their way...

    I don't see any problem in theorising about what we might personally invest in these kind of events.
    That wrongs echo down the centuries.
    That Mace's killing of Jango in ATOC gives birth to Boba Fett the bounty hunter, who will later return to hamper our heroes' progess years later by taking Han out of the equation and diverting them from the task at hand.
    But that is all stuff like that is - colourful and poetic elabouration.
    It's not the "truth" of the film - it is just a very personal opinion...
    ...something we are all entitled to express, but it seems to be being passed off as if it was some kind of "truth" that Lucas intentionally put there onscreen.
  5. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    with this kind of post its crystal clear that i wont be able to have a decent discussion with you.i really dont care what you say.obi wan says he was a good man,GL says that SW is the story of a good man becoming evil.end of discussion.

    anakin is only responsible of his own fall and yet you blame him for the fall of the republic too when that is 100% palpatine's fault.

    of course you can have your opinion but i wont say " i agree" or " you are right" or even " you are partially right" when the film maker says that you are wrong and obviously wrong.

    SR70 out... at least for now.

  6. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "anakin is only responsible of his own fall and yet you blame him for the fall of the republic too when that is 100% palpatine's fault."

    I never said anything about the Republic.
    I only said Ani is 100% responsible for his own choices.
    I don't need you to agree with me so that's irrelevant.
    Yes, SW is the story about a good man who turns bad.
    Ani was once good, but we see tons of evidence in EPII-III
    to show he had his own agenda and a lust for power and control
    even before he swore allegiance to Palps.

    G_I_G: good post :)
  7. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i have been quite harsh on my previous posts to you and im sorry.

    to the topic:

    i agree he always wants ot control things but this is what his wants to control:

    1- he doenst want to leave his mother
    2- he doesnt want his mother to die
    3- he doesnt want his wife and child to die

    attached and greedy feelings ?? of course they are and thats why anakin fails

    are they "evil" feelings ?? no way !!

  8. jvberggren Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    3- he doesnt want his wife and child to die
    we don't ever really hear that he wants to save the child...
    imo he isn't too concerned about it near the end.

    he still wants to save padme, but the child doesn't seem to be a focus here.
  9. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i wasnt being specific.i only meant that those feeling can be greedy,not selfless and all you want to call them but no way they are evil.
  10. jvberggren Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i wasnt being specific.i only meant that those feeling can be greedy,not selfless and all you want to call them but no way they are evil.
    i know.
    just wanted to clarify that this wasn't a fact.

    and you're right of course.
    feelings like that are not evil.
    that is unless you allow such feelings to take control of you and use them as justifications for doing unspeakable things.

    nothing inherently evil about them, but certainly dangerous...
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    exactly my point,at last someone gets it.
  12. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "i have been quite harsh on my previous posts to you and im sorry"

    No worries, I'm no shrinking violet ;)

    I don't think I ever called Ani evil, as bad I think he was at
    times I'd prefer to think he's more flawed due to being over-
    emotional, over-reactive, greedy etc.. which unfortunately
    rules a lot of his decisions. Ya know it's really odd for me
    b/c I loved Ani in EPII [except for his whiney how come they're
    holding me back parts]. In ROTS I still liked the character b/c
    he's so tragic and complex, but I started to see him as no
    victim, as someone who made the poorest choices possible for
    the wrong reasons therefore he owns them. He IMO is personally
    responsible for his choices. This is not to say some things that
    occurred didn't send him left when he should have turned right,
    but he was not a child who didn't know right from wrong.
    He knew killing children was wrong, why he didn't even debate that
    issue in his head is beyond me.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    If you're going to bring in the eu regarding Mace and Anakin, let's go over everything. In "Deceptions" and "The Followers", Mace trusts Anakin. This continues in "Rogue Planet" and the Jedi Quest books. It's more evident in the Clone Wars comics and "Shatterpoint", which was written by Stover himself. In "Labryinth Of Evil", Mace still trusts Anakin even though they never interact. By the time of ROTS, that trust is shaken and it happens after Anakin's outburst.

    And as to Mace killing Jango, the Mandalorian was not exactly helpless. Dooku was helpless.
  14. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    d-s, you're right. I think that's why I tend to leave out the EU
    b/c if you start citing examples from it then you have to be
    willing to explore all other evidence from the various books
    out there in the EU. Too much info! :)
  15. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    ah, upping is fun :)

    jedi momma

    if a philosophy is so good and mind-blowing it'll still work on people even after they are older than anakin in tpm...
    Yes, it can. But many discliplines are better taught young. When all the neuron pathways in the brain are still open.

    well, if the teachings are based on compassion and justice and all this sort of thing i don't see how you cannot learn this stuff from your parents. which leaves the force ability stuff, which seems to make a difference being taught young. well, so what, really, why not do this with the parents present?
    maybe i'm arguing for argument's sake, but i do believe that anakin was discovered later on and he was still able to follow the stuff. much of what he displays in rots is already present in tpm for me. so, i don't know what the jedi taught him, really.

    They are being brought up to function in their society. A society which is very strange to us but no stranger than the Amish or some Native American tribes

    it's different to me, being brought up in a caring and warm environment or being brought up by the restrained and cold jedi order. it's not physical abuse as a such, it's molding kids to fit some task which is defined purely by their midichlorian count, not their personality or anything. parents don't force their kids to be keepers of much of anything except their wits maybe.

    btw, i applaud your effort with the kids, but i cannot very much discuss this. i don't have kids.

    Again he invited the stronger response through his behavior.
    I thnk Obi does consider his past handling of Ani as a mistake and is cracking down harder here to correct that.

    well, maybe. my point is just that this way obi-wan will not change this, he will make anakin more submissive, if anything. which should supposedly go against the jedi code.
    what you said.

    There was that awful scene before the council but I have my own feelings about why that got so out of countrol but once he was accepted into the Order I see nothing that says he wasn't welcomed.

    i did think you'd see it...
    well, my assumption and it's really only an assumption, is that this attitude towards him was prevailing for a long while and anakin isn't insensitive. he knows it then, her will sense it afterweards. he is perceived as a threat (to what?) and his subsequent actions will be judged according to that. he perceives them as cold, his subsequent actions will reflect that.
    ah, first impression is everything.

    You think it was the Jedi's job to figure out that Anakin needed to be treated differenty. I've laid out why I think it was Anakin's place to speak up

    i do think both our views have merits. :)

    Please do NOT think I'm excusing the massacre.

    never. really.

    And I do think the guilt and shame ate him up and contributed to his fall. But I also think that 5 - 8 years down the road (about the time I think he needed to really complete his apprenticeship) he would have handled the whole thing better.

    i guess that'd depend on what would have been done. just carry on regardless has been their stance. that didn't help. and talking about it isn't possible either. so, what's your suggestion?

    Anakin's problem was that his power greatly surpassed his emotional maturity.

    i think i agree with that. it's too much.

    In fact his power hurt his emotional maturity.

    and i disagree with this...
    it's more how they dealt with him having the power that brings about the problems. with this kind of power you'd think he must choose his own path but he is neither given this freedom, nor does he really ever claim it himself.

    He needed Obi w/ him a lot longer and a lot more than he got.

    that speaks highly of your appreciation for obi/ani, but it doesn't speak highly of anakin's strength in character. which is my point. if you cannot be without your mentor or you'll do something very dangerous and out-of-co
  16. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    cont'd :) accidentally hit post button.

    We don't know Mustafar was the only time Obi ever declared his love and if so - well a lot of "dad's" are like that.

    tis true, i cannot go by the time that's passed. or anything between the films or whatever. so, i'll go by what i see and that's two declarations of love by people who are not his mom, padme just before they are going to be executed and obi-wan just after an execution. odd places, don't you agree?

    and i think i have discussed obi/ani enough now. they do love each other. no problem whatsoever.
    what is difficult is that they cannot properly communicate this to each other.

    No, he didn't trust his judgment (he's probably been seeing a lot of examples of this "judgment" lately) and he was 100% correct.

    okay, so we have an agreement he doesn't trust the judgement. why did we discuss this again? ah... the obedience angle, i think.
    okay, so despite obi-wan's objections the coulcil thinks anakin is all ready for this trip etc. and obi-wan assures himself nothing bad will happen if anakin just keeps in touch, which he doesn't do.
    ah, i'm tying myself in knots. obi-wan is being obedient, anakin isn't for reasons which i cannot really discern myself. but the crux is that talking to your master/council is not trusting your own judgement on what's good and what's right.
    which is what i say. basically.

    And a guy as powerful as him should be able to handle all this and do whatever he wants anyway? Right?

    i have faith we can come to some to a conclusion here. :)
    first: i do think you *overestimate* the midi count thing and assume it to be some token of both mental and spiritual strength. if it was that, anakin would be mentally and spritually stronger. but he isn't. so, either the jedi order erased that or it vanished all by itself. neither of which i find particularly satisfying explanations.
    mine is as follows: midi count accounts for a strong connection to the force, anakin is some kind of antenna of the force. that only means this one thing to me: he will have to learn to handle it. it just means once he handles it it will be a great asset, he can enhance all of his other faculties with it, but without being able to handle it, it'll be unused and unfocused potential.
    i think spritual strength is not achieved through force using, rather the other way around.
    anyway, as for the big Ps... it's true he has no patience (goodness, yes. :D ), he has pride... but i don't see how he has power. there is none voluntarily given to him as a member of the order and as for his own force power i believe there was much still to be unleashed (which we see displayed in rots once he taps into the dark side).
  17. Philip023 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2002
    star 3
    I haven't read every post on this thread but, my observations are:

    I think in the OT, we know that the "dark times" or the rise of the "empire" somehow led to the extinction of the Jedi. At least in my perception, the OT establishes that the Jedi were somehow toppled through force, not necessarily through fault of their own.

    In the PT, however, we clearly see that the Jedi are aloof, arrogant, assuming, and intransigent. The difference in perception is that watching the OT you have a sense that the Jedi could never be tricked into extinction or unwittingly be pawns in their own destruction. But that is what happens.

    I don't think this is an inconsistency. But I do think that if it was a little clearly more established at what the Sith were and what they had become, we could get a better sense of why the Jedi were duped.

    I think some parts of ROTS also leave me with the impression that some Jedi are stronger in the force and skill than others. (Palpatine easily killing 3 Jedi in less than 30 seconds and the destruction of the temple.) I don't think this is an inconsistency either but its still a curiosity to me.

    Lastly, when troops were marching on the temple, if I was a jedi, my initial reaction would be to fight, but also to quickly acknowledge why the troops were entering the temple. I would have rushed to the younglings, gathered them up, and somehow whisked them to safety.

    Oh well.
  18. Jedi_Momma Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    They were a very structured society; they wanted a uniform approach. It allowed an order of tens of thousands of Jedi to be "run" by a Council of 12. The good that they were doing was worth the sacrifice IMO and I think 99.99% of the Jedi agreed or they would have lost more than 20 over a thousand genrations.

    I'm not saying their way was the only way. All that I've been saying (over and over) was that as long as it worked for the Jedi and the parents approved - it was their right to do so. If any parents gave their kids over to this Order and didn't approve of the upbringing and lifestyle then they were grossly negligent or nuts.

    Theirs was an holistic approach to their training. I assume it was very intense and they were trying to integrate use of the Force fully into all of their actions and reactions. It "worked" on Anakin and Luke because they were amazingly strong in the Force. This wasn't true of all of their students.

    Ya' think?o_O

    What did he display in TPM besides quick reflexes and true dumb luck? In ROTS his skills w/ a lightsaber are beyond impressive, his battle skills highly honed (avoiding those missiles was no fluke like the Naboo battle), there's his new found "patience", he can levitate objects, he can Force push, he can move faster than you can almost follow, he can jump meters high. There's also a bunch of stuff in the Clone Wars cartoons if you watched them.

    Restrained? Maybe yes. That's not a tragedy. But cold? On what are you basing that? I don't see Obi as cold (watch him not just w/ Ani but w/ Dex), Yoda seemed pretty sweet w/ those younglings to me, Dooku seemed to actually love and miss Qui.

    Again, I don't see any difference between this and moulding a kid to be a gymnist based on their flexibility. Also, there were different tasks in the Jedi - there were healers, there were librarians, there must have been teachers and "nannies". I assume there were other categories as well; these jobs must have been based on people's personalities.

    I understand - I just can't help using them as constant (for me) real life (too real sometimes) examples. Sorry if I go on about them too much.[face_blush]

    I didn't know there was anything in the code about submission but I assume a Jedi shouldn't really submit to anything other than the Will of the Force. There's a major difference between submission and obediance and even just following protocol. Soldiers are expected to follow orders and protocol but they can't afford to be submissive. Anakin simply has to learn that there's a time and place for everything. And as I said - if he wanted to handle this assignment differently - discuss it beforehand or privately. Not in front of a Senator and her top aide.

  19. Jedi_Momma Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    Yes, but we do tend to only see moments of high drama, don't we?

    I can sum up my response like this - if Ani had only managed to be obediant, than Obi's obediance wouldn't have been a disaster. Too bad Master and Padawan can't get their responses coordinated. But Obi did display enough faith in Ani to think he would be obediant even if he didn't have much faith in his decision making at that point.

    Not if he ignores that part of his training. He didn't get that skilled at wielding a saber by merely waiting for it to happen. AND I do think Ani neglects this side of being a Jedi. Again, because he's intoxicated by his "other" power.

    Well, I was referring to meditation and divining the "Will of the Force." The Force that is basically his "father." He doesn't reach out to it more because - again - he doesn't value it enough and it takes a lot of patience.

    I don't think he needed the Dark side to unleash his Power. The Dark side is just basically unrestrained self interest. That kind of Power he didn't need; it ruined his life. I happen to agree w/ Padme - he already had all he needed - he just need to listen to his conscience (remember - the "little man knows all"), think, use the Force.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    It's explained in the novelization. Anakin walks up to the front doors and they're opened by Jurak, who is in charge of securing the main doors and other enterences. He sees Anakin and asks what happens. Anakin lies and then asks where Shaak Ti is. After Jurak tells him, Anakin kills him. But before dying, the last thing he sees are the Clonetroopers standing behind Anakin. Once he fell the attack began. All of the Padawans who had advanced training were given Lightsabers and were put on alert, along with the few Knights and Masters. They were sent to the forefront to stop the attacks when the blasterfire began. The identity of the Jedi who put the Younglings in the Council room, is unknown. At least as far as I know.
  21. TheCRZA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    To commandeer this thread momentarily, so which death of Shaak Ti is
    actually canon? Does Anakin kill her or Grevious?
    Which is more legit? A novelization or a deleted scene?
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i vote for novelization.
  23. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    I don't think Either can be canon. as Neither is in the Movie. and this is a ROTS movie forum. not EU . plus the cut scene is out of context , because Shak Ti was also killed by Anakin in the Temple in a cut scene too. so i say Neither. :)
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Lucas chose to include the Grievous killing Shaak Ti, to enhance the General's reputation and because it's connected to the fuel room sequence. I believe all the eu and adaptations reference Anakin killing Shaak Ti. And since she's last seen on Courscant in Chatper 25 of the cartoon and in LOE, I think that's more canon.
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    there is no less canon or more canon, as an avid *believer* you should know that.
    either it's da truth or it isn't. there is no grey to canon.
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