If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

No one can take away someone else's fear. It doesn't work that way. We can soothe and comfort those who are fearful, but a person must be receptive.

None of you folks are grasping that concept - you cannot eliminate fear in someone else. They must face their own fears and study it out in their mind and decide to overcome them. They can be offered all sorts of advice, but unitl they try to act on the advice and discover for themselves, they will bask in their own fear forever. People exist who never overcome their fear. I know this. It's tragic. But you cannot shake someone's spirit into change - you can stir them, but they must make the change. They still must face their own fears... because it is theirs.

I didn't see Anakin object openly to Yoda's advice either. He heard Yoda and wieghed the advice against his own agenda and the two didn't match.

How does Yoda know that Anakin is walking away still confused? Did Anakin ask more questions? Did Anakin rephrase his problem? Did Anakin tell Yoda he did not understand... or did Anakin understand Yoda completely, but wanted to find another way?

 

anakin says, i will not let this happen or something like that.

fear must be overcome by the person, true, but it must be overcome in an environment that is helpful and supportive, if we're talking psychology here.

i feel reprimanded if you continually tell su we'Re wrong for not sharing your POV. please stop it.

 

Then you reject George's story. I think this is a lot of people's problem. They're just not into the story. They do not adhere to Lucas' philosophy. That's fine. It's a disappointment for me to see fans reject George's story. Not such a huge one, but I think it's unfortunate that fans who really seem devoted to Star Wars are coming to the realization that Lucas' vision contradicts their own.

 

Erm, I thought "Rejoice for those who die. Do not mourn them. Do not miss them." was way too much. Try giving that lovely piece of advice to say, a father on the bedside of his very sick child or something. You`ll get bitch-slapped out of the house, if you`re lucky.
That sounds horrible, like you`re not even supposed to feel the normal emotions of grief and loss.
Feelings in itself are not the problem. How you choose to act on them is the thing.


It's a disappointment for me to see fans reject George's story. Not such a huge one, but I think it's unfortunate that fans who really seem devoted to Star Wars are coming to the realization that Lucas' vision contradicts their own.


I think it`s more of a thing of not agreeing with his viewpoint than rejecting his story.
People are neither as pristine to have this totally selfless love nor as bad to love only greedily and selfishly. Love encompasses both and most people seem to do mostly fine with that.

 

Yes, this is exactly the point; if you really care about someone, you WILL miss them and mourn them when they die, unless you are a robot.

 

SashaSkywalker, Yoda is speaking as a Jedi. This is his belief. He imparts the same wisdom to Luke in ESB. Were you offended by it then?

Yoda is George's mouth-piece. Everything Yoda teaches in the saga is embraced in the end. Yoda tells the story of the Force. Yoda says it like Lucas intends for it to be accepted.

 

Then you reject George's story. I think this is a lot of people's problem. They're just not into the story. They do not adhere to Lucas' philosophy. That's fine. It's a disappointment for me to see fans reject George's story. Not such a huge one, but I think it's unfortunate that fans who really seem devoted to Star Wars are coming to the realization that Lucas' vision contradicts their own.

dude. the one rejecting the story is YOU. Lucas set out to show how a good person becomes Evil, How a Democracy becomes an Empire and how a Trusted Institution becomes a Enemy of the state. as For Anakin, he is to Blame for becoming Evil, the Jedi share that blame for Allowing it to happen. they did'nt heed the warning signs. plain and simple.

 

Then you reject George's story. I think this is a lot of people's problem. They're just not into the story. They do not adhere to Lucas' philosophy. That's fine. It's a disappointment for me to see fans reject George's story. Not such a huge one, but I think it's unfortunate that fans who really seem devoted to Star Wars are coming to the realization that Lucas' vision contradicts their own.

dunno, do i?

i think i know his interpretation and i know you want me to say that anakin did it out of compassionate love, i know all that.

my interpretation isn't invalid though and i would like you to see that, too.

 

Yes, but Yoda can be wrong.

Yoda is wrong about Luke in ESB. Luke leaves his training,
confronts Vader, survives, then rescues Han. Luke makes his own
lightsaber before returning to Yoda. And it is attachment
that allows Luke to save Han, save Leia, and save Anakin.

Yoda is wrong about Anakin being beyond redemption.
Consumed by Vader... well, not so much.

Yoda is not infallible.

 

TheCRZA, I love your new signature!

 

When he was telling Luke to sacrifice Leia and Han ?
He didn`t use this words, though, or I believe Luke`s eyes would have been bulging. He told him to sacrifice them, not basically not care about their death. And yeah, I was quite happy when Luke did go in spite of it. It`s a very human thing to do.

And I didn`t even see Yoda much rejoicing for all his dead comrades at the end of ROTS.

As for Lucas, I don`t really believe Lucas would feel this way about the death of his children or close friends. And if so, boy, would I think of his as heartless.

 

DUGGY. Meet George Lucas:

---

"I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, [b]less emotion-based[/b]. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding?a ?bigger picture? understanding?of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. [b]Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.[/b]

Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. [b]Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature.[/b] Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells."

--George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999[hr][/blockquote]

Anakin is George's cancer cell.

This is what ROTS is about to Lucas:

[blockquote][hr]"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of [b]greed[/b], of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion?[b]of not thinking of yourself all the time.[/b] These are the two sides?the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

--George Lucas[hr][/blockquote]

The entire saga centers on Anakin's greed and then his final enlightenment in ROTJ when he finally let's go of everything and in the process is saved.

[b]Greed vs. compassion.[/b] This is the story of the saga. This is Lucas' intention. Read his words.

 

Sasha, you're on point. The reason that Luke is able to "defeat" the Sith is because he throws down his lightsaber and says, yes, I care about my dad, even though we've literally been trying to kill each other.

And on Degobah he says, "Screw you Yoda, I'm going to save my friends. Other people are important, not just the Jedi."

Luke succeeds where Yoda fails.

"Failed, I have"

And Yoda does tell Luke to sacrifice his friends.

 

o.k Ewok, so did Lucas intentionally want the Jedi to be 100% faultless. cause i do seem to remember reading interviews and articles where he does say that other's handled things wrongly. like Mace trying to kill Palps in front of Anakin etc... i guess i am just wrong then.

 

Again, Luke does care about others, he's the solution to this "cancer." He thinks of others. He thinks of Han and Leia. Yoda says, "No, don't think about those people, they're gone, be happy!" It's a very self-centered way to think. The Jedi do not embody everything selfless, at least not in the PT I saw. But I suppose it's POV.

 

Greed vs. compassion. This is the story of the saga. This is Lucas' intention. Read his words.



Well, in that case I think Lucas deals too much in absolutes for my taste. ]

I see people as more balanced. Sometimes greed will drive you, sometimes compassion, sometimes both at once. You can think about a person and your own at the same time, swinging more to the me-side or the other. But it is seldom an either - or thing.
Complex creatures we are.

 

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful?it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 221

So, George does have more respect for the concept of compassion than you are giving him credit for (or at least you're construing his intentions very differently than I am). Compassion is what saves the galaxy, not letting go of all you fear to lose. Luke knows that he's supposed to destroy the Sith, but he CAN'T kill his father. This is the moment that the entire Saga hinges on. It's where Luke chooses compassion; he loves his father and he will not destroy him, even though that's essentially what Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him to do.

 

Lucas created the two-sided Force for a reason. He actually doesn't create it, he just labels good and evil differently - light and dark. Same thing. He understands the balance between good and evil but he is personally interested in enlightnement and how to overcome the greed and the dark side. You can understand the saga better when you understand the author.

 

You can understand the saga better when you understand the author.


Why don't you give the Condescending a rest . o.k. it makes you look like your losing ground.

 

But he also made sure we saw how easy it is to get the two confused in the character of Anakin. One of the ways he did this was to show that the Jedi weren't faultless, they could become arrogant just like regular citizens in the galaxy. He says it implicitly.

 

Absolutely! Here's a good quote from Hayden on that exact topic:

"The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECEIVED BY THE CON as well."

--Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82

"Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the universe."

--Hayden Christensen, GQ Magazine.

Anakin is supposed to be a sympathetic character.

 

Um. Bitter much? I'm not condescending. I'm pointing out that I have learned to interpret the saga better once I understand Lucas' motives and personal convictions.

Rhonderoo is right. Lucas shows in ROTS how compassion and greed, good and bad become blurred. This is how Anakin falls. He confuses greed for compassion.

Lighten up, DUGGY. I'm illustrating my positions like you're always challenging me to do.

 

I disagree with this. Luke was wrong to leave in ESB. This is made quite clear. No good came from Luke's "rescue" attempt, in fact Leia had to take a greater risk in trying to save Luke fromt he trap. Luke did nothing to save them in ESB. They got out by themselves.

Luke knows he was wrong and apologizes to Yoda. He admits he was wrong for his actions in ESB.

And Yoda is wrong about Vader - he does believe Anakin is lost forever. I agree with you. But Yoda was not wrong about Luke in ESB.

And it's not Luke's attachment to his father that brings about the positive change. It's when Luke is willing to let go of the attachment, shows compassion instead and is willing to die. Then he indirectly triggers compassion in Vader.

Both Luke and Anakin learn to let go in the end.

 

See, here's the thing Ewok, even though Luke 'fails' when he goes to rescue Leia and Han, he does so for the right reasons. He shows compassion. And he finds out that Vader is his dad, which leads him to do the right thing in Episode VI, as you can see from the Lucas quotes above.

I am starting to wonder why you are avoiding the quotes that I brought up...

 

Nope, sorry. His actions in ESB were driven by his attachments. Luke's failure in the cave and his fear of losing Leia and Han led him right into the trap.

Lucas is mirroring Anakin's failure in ROTS when he rushes off against sage advice.

Luke repeats his father's mistakes until the last moment when he won't follow his father down the same path. By saving himself from the dark side, Luke seals his mortal fate and is willing to die. That's when Luke becomes a Jedi and has learned compassion and sacrifice.