If the Jedi were supposed to be ......................

In ESB, Luke is willing to die for his friends. His motivations are totally different than Anakin's.

I am starting to wonder why you are avoiding the quotes that I brought up...

 

How am I not giving Lucas credit for his take on compassion? I have posted quotes about the very same issue. That is George's montra. Selflessness and compassion. This is what he hopes humankind can achieve.

I totally agree with this. I am one of the few who believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about Anakin being lost. Go look in the thread "Do the Jedi Believe Anakin can come back to the good side" and you'll see all my posts on the subject. I clearly state where Yoda and Ben are wrong and were proved wrong by Luke.

 

I guess we agree then. The Jedi were wrong to neglect compassion as they did in ROTS with Anakin.

You can't have it both ways. Yoda is clearly not compassionate towards Anakin's situation.

 

Anakin is not acting on compassion and the Jedi are not being selfish. Yoda is compassionate to Anakin. I really don't think Lucas is painting Yoda as wrong. Yoda's advice is sage. It's just that Yoda is on such a higher plane than Anakin and Anakin is not focused on Yoda's wisdom - Anakin doesn't want to mourn at all and Yoda is telling him he doesn't have to.

Again, Yoda is telling Anakin where he should be concentrating... on the positive. The lesson is larger than Anakin's problem and that is why Anakin cannot see it.

Yoda has no idea Anakin is talking about his wife. And Anakin is totally wrong in his interpretation of things anyway. He wasn't witnessing Padme die the way he thought - it was in childbirth, but not because of it.

 

Again, Yoda is telling Anakin where he should be concentrating... on the positive. The lesson is larger than Anakin's problem and that is why Anakin cannot see it.

Right focus on the here and now. Be careful when sensing the future young SKywalker. What does Yoda tell Luke. The future is always in motion.

 

Yes, it's very nice advice if you are completely detached from your emotions.

 

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[b]Yes, it's very nice advice if you are completely detached from your emotions[/b]


This isnt about being detached from your emotions concentrate on the present dont worry about the future because one does not know what will happen. Anakin is too busy focusing on saving Padme he did not even hear her while they were in the present.

 

Precisely. Lucas was very clever to write the script so that Padme gives Anakin the exact key to saving her life.

Exactly "Anakin all I want is your love." period!!. What does Anakin tell her on Mustafar "Love wont be enough to save you." Wrong..considering its the love of Luke that saves Anakin hello.

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[b]She says it more than once. Anakin ignores the key to stopping her from dying. He cannot recognize the truth even when he hears it from Padme. Forget Yoda. Padme held the key - at least where it concerned Anakin's dream. Basically she said the same thing as Yoda - ignore the dream it's not relevant[/b]

Right "lets leave everything behind while we still can."

 

That's why even though I understand Anakin and sympathize with him on some levels, I cannot excuse him or fault anyone other than him.

He was shown the truth by all sorts of people and it didn't matter how the truth was explained... point blank, in riddles, or with hugs and kisses - in did not matter to Anakin because his personal truth was based on his greed, nothing more.

 

Lucas is mirroring Anakin's failure in ROTS when he rushes off against sage advice.


How does Anakin rush off against safe advice?
He asks for help, Yoda gives him a fortune cookie answer
and then the Jedi Council use him.

He then is given what he percieves as good advice from the last
mentor he has left, Palpatine.

Luke survived and did not turn to the darkside. He learned about
Vader being his father from Vader himself and did not lose heart.
If anything, ESB shows that Yoda underestimates Luke at nearly every turn.

Why else do you think when Luke returns to Degobah to resume his training,
Yoda has nothing more to teach him?

This isnt about being detached from your emotions concentrate on the present dont worry about the future because one does not know what will happen.

Just because one can't forsee the future does not mean that one should
be blindsided by it.

 

That's why even though I understand Anakin and sympathize with him on some levels, I cannot excuse him or fault anyone other than him.

you really don't believe anybody had a hand in any of it do you?. Not the Jedi who took him from his Mother at an early age and raised him from what is it 7 years on. nope they were perfect parents. they were understanding , and compassionate. and saw the Terrible conflict Anakin seemed to have with letting go , and they addressed it and gave him the attention he needed to get over it. (no, not give him his way, but recognoze a problem exists.) like i said if the Jedi way with Children and troubled Teens is to stay the Course and never drift from their Rigid Fascist teachings, then they should never be able to handle children and warp them into things some of them are not.

He was shown the truth by all sorts of people and it didn't matter how the truth was explained... point blank, in riddles, or with hugs and kisses - in did not matter to Anakin because his personal truth was based on his greed, nothing more

that is true. but that is not why he was upset with the Council, you still have yet to recognize the Conflict of interests, in Putting him on the Council, only for their Gain, and not based on any merit. and then to deny him what he feels he deserves. not that he does deserve it , but the Title usually comes with the Chair, for any other Jedi. so they give him a token seat , only to use his friendship with Palpatine against Palpatine. that is fine but the Conflict of interest has always been, the way they did it. now more people than not , especially today have recognized that, but you and TFR are like a couple of old Jedi on this Matter. you know best and everybody is wrong, and stay the Course , cause god forbid you admit the Precious Jedi did anything wrong. oh well , makes it better for those who's eyes are open to the POSSIBILITY that Anakin is not some Completely rotten person from the Time the Jedi take him in. i do believe his Mother said he gives without asking anything in return, and he knows nothing of greed. well somebody let these traits develope. And the Jedi are not fully to blame , of course not. but they were his Mentors and Guardians.


P.S i like your newer scarier Icon TFR.

 

How does Anakin rush off against safe advice?
He asks for help, Yoda gives him a fortune cookie answer
and then the Jedi Council use him.

Well lets see he kneels before palps and goes on a murdering spree without thinking about the consequences too busy focusing on trying to save Padme and it falls apart on Mustafar when his plans are rejected.

He then is given what he percieves as good advice from the last
mentor he has left, Palpatine.

And that is why he fails.Use the force..think

Luke survived and did not turn to the darkside. He learned about
Vader being his father from Vader himself and did not lose heart.

Yeah but at what cost. He found out the truth but he also lost his hand in the process and was emotionally shattered He was blessed that Leia heard his call because it couldve turned out differently.

If anything, ESB shows that Yoda underestimates Luke at nearly every turn.

No it shows Luke becoming like his father if he does not learn to conquer his emotions. It shows Luke being impatient and almost facing the same situation as his father. "Did you save your friends? No....It was they that had to save YOU."

Why else do you think when Luke returns to Degobah to resume his training,
Yoda has nothing more to teach him?

Well because Yoda is about to pass on to the afterworld. He can not train Luke anymore his time is up, that is why he told LUke "Strong in the force am I but not that strong."This is the way of the force."



that is true. but that is not why he was upset with the Council, you still have yet to recognize the Conflict of interests, in Putting him on the Council, only for their Gain, and not based on any merit.

Says who he wanted to be on the council and he is. If he had a problem then maybe he shouldve rejected Palps notion that he be a personal representative

and then to deny him what he feels he deserves. not that he does deserve it , but the Title usually comes with the Chair, for any other Jedi.
Does it come with a chair, Jinn is a master and hes not on the council.

so they give him a token seat , only to use his friendship with Palpatine against Palpatine.

Use it against him Duggy kinda like Palps using Anakin and his fears against his family and his brotherhood. Interesting.

that is fine but the Conflict of interest has always been, the way they did it. now
more people than not , especially today have recognized that, but you and TFR are like a couple of old Jedi on this Matter.

What people do you speak of Duggy not everyone is in agreement with you and your supporters. darth Sinister has made many quotes about the matter I know you read them because youve debated them with him/her. I am not like an old Jedi on this matter but I will not say that the Jedi made Anakin into Darth Vader I cant do that and I wont. I might as well say the JEdi were responsible for killing Padme is that a fair assestment.


you know best and everybody is wrong, and stay the Course , cause god forbid you admit the Precious Jedi did anything wrong.

Duggy even Kenobi told Anakin in LOE that YOda was not infalliable I never said the JEdi were perfect none of us are but that doesnt mean we cant stop striving to be good and do good. Anakin just straight gave up thinking he was doomed to be a killer and didnt have any good in him which he always did, didnt mean he had to take the easy path because life is not always easy. I can tell you ]giving into your rage and hate and anger does nothing to solve a problem makes it worse which is why Anakin will fall. "Anakin forces his friends to turn against him."-George Lucas." Its Anakin's inabilty to control his temper,his greed, his need to control things that will be his downfall." George Lucas[/b]

oh well , makes it better for those who's eyes are open to the POSSIBILITY that Anakin is not some Completely rotten person from the Time the Jedi take him in. i do believe his Mother said he gives without asking anything in return, a

 

Well because Yoda is about to pass on to the afterworld. He can not train Luke anymore his time is up, that is why he told LUke "Strong in the force am I but not that strong."This is the way of the force."

Sorry. That's out of context. In relation to what I was actually talking about,
Yoda tells him "no more training do you require, already know you that which you need."

 

Sorry. That's out of context. In relation to what I was actually talking about,
Yoda tells him "no more training do you require, already know you that which you need."

Exactly but thats not because he doesnt want to continue to train him> he is old Crza and his time is almost up.

 

The jedi do make mistakes IMO.

1) separating anakin from his Mother; and
2) not understanding the problems 1) will cause and addressing them from the outset.

The Jedi can not really be blamed for these mistakes though for their intentions are good. They just do not understand attachments as they are forbidden. IMO this is what they do different with Luke, after seeing first hand what can happen. They are aware of his attachments and the problems they can cause. Therefore a major focus of Luke's training is controlling his emotions.

 

Exactly but thats not because he doesnt want to continue to train him> he is old Crza and his time is almost up.

You're making an assumption that runs completely contrary to what is stated plainly.

Yoda's impending death and Luke's training are separate matters.
The only link I see is that Yoda held on long enough to tell Luke that
he was as trained as he could be and that only by facing Vader
again would he become a Jedi.

 

Very good post. I agree almost completely.

 

The only link I see is that Yoda held on long enough to tell Luke that
he was as trained as he could be and that only by facing Vader
again would he become a Jedi.

Exactly and how much more could Yoda train him considering his time is almost up. What else could Luke learn from Yoda in that short of time Crza.

Therefore a major focus of Luke's training is controlling his emotions

Yes and like Anakin he makes the same mistakes, giving into his emotions and he learns from them ... the cave, the cave on Dagobah Youre focusing on the negative again ANAKIN." Be mindful of your thoughts." "Attachments a shadow of jealousy and greed they are."

 

What else could Luke learn from Yoda in that short of time Crza.

That's sort of my point. Nothing. Luke already knew all he needed to know.
He built his lightsaber on his own. That says something about the boy's
ability. Yoda recognizes that he was wrong about Luke. Luke failed and it
was not at the cost of certain doom. In fact, Luke is later able to succeed
because of his failure.

The Jedi expect perfection and complete adherence to the code.
There is no middle ground. You're either a model of a jedi or off the reservation.

 

Yoda recognizes that he was wrong about Luke.

When does say he is wrong about Luke
Luke failed and it
was not at the cost of certain doom.

No it wasnt at the cost of certain doom but he almost met his doom had Leia not been present. He was definitely humbled by his lack of patience. "He will learn patience" and he does eventually

In fact, Luke is later able to succeed
because of his failure.

Yes mind what you have learned save you it will. That is what was the message for Anakin. Slaghtering people in Aotc did nothing to save his mother does he learn from this the second time he does it to save Padme....NO and that is why he will fail again. He gets one last chance to rectify that failure in ROTJ

The Jedi expect perfection and complete adherence to the code.
There is no middle ground. You're either a model of a jedi or off the reservat

"To be a Jedi takes the deepest of commitments the most serious of minds." Ready are you"? "Excitement eh a Jedi craves none of these things....You are reckless." LOL

 

Yes mind what you have learned save you it will. That is what was the message for Anakin. Slaghtering people in Aotc did nothing to save his mother does he learn from this the second time he does it to save Padme....NO and that is why he will fail again. He gets one last chance to rectify that failure in ROTJ

Luke doesn't go to Bespin to take revenge on the imperials, he goes to save his friends.
Luke doesn't go to Tatooine to take revenge upon Jabba the Hutt, he goes to
save his friends.
The Jedi go to Geonosis to save Padme, Anakin and Obi Wan.
Yoda allows Dooku to escape to save Anakin and Obi Wan.

"To be a Jedi takes the deepest of commitments the most serious of minds." Ready are you"? "Excitement eh a Jedi craves none of these things....You are reckless

Mace is not reckless? Obi Wan is not reckless?

Yoda is stuck in a swamp because he was wrong.
It's not a Florida condo and he's not in retirement.

 

Luke doesn't go to Bespin to take revenge on the imperials, he goes to save his friends.

But does he Crza...No it is they that save him.

Luke doesn't go to Tatooine to take revenge upon Jabba the Hutt, he goes to
save his friends.

Yes and he succeeds with the help of everyone.

The Jedi go to Geonosis to save Padme, Anakin and Obi Wan.
Yoda allows Dooku to escape to save Anakin and Obi Wan.

Exactly so what is the point?

"To be a Jedi takes the deepest of commitments the most serious of minds." Ready are you"? "Excitement eh a Jedi craves none of these things....You are reckless

Mace is not reckless? Obi Wan is not reckless?

What does Mace and Kenobi have to do with Luke becoming a Jedi? They are gone Luke is up next

Yoda is stuck in a swamp because he was wrong.
It's not a Florida condo and he's not in retirement

Huh?Yeah okay

 

I'm illustrating that if Yoda were so right, then Yoda wouldn't be
living in the middle of nowhere.

I don't see any aspect of revenge in Luke's behavior.
Boba Fett shoots at him and then he gets trapped in the carbon chamber
with Vader.

I don't understand what aspect of his friends saving him you bicker with?

 

Yeah, I thought that was pretty self-evident. That's the whole point of Luke, he's a different kind of Jedi than the others, but he made some similiar mistakes. His motivations and the outcomes, however, were much different.