Speculation If the Sith feature in the Sequels...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Spam Bot, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Spam Bot Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 1
    ...would you feel that the integrity of the saga so far would be undermined?

    For me, it would almost trivialise Anakin's character journey (rise, fall and redemption) and would fly in the face of the prophecy that was harped on during the prequels.

    It's hard for many to imagine Star Wars without some sort of arch-nemesis to the Jedi empowered by the Dark Side. They could use such a villain without it being an actual Sith, but might that be something of a copout?

    Can the sequels actually get away without having red-lightsaber wielding baddies?
  2. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    I think it can, it's simply a matter on how creative they are on creating another dark side force user.
  3. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I've said it before - Nightsisters.
  4. DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah, a part of me leans towards having no Sith be featured. The shroud of the darkside has been lifted, and the Jedi can 'see' again.

    That's not to say the Sith's effect on the galaxy has gone completely away, mind you. There could be remnants of the Empire in a few sparse locations that haven't let go of their complete control over their local systems. Imagine, many local warring governors, fighting for dominance over their sector. It would be chaos.

    I'd say that the Sith are gone. That the struggle that the Jedi now have to overcome is putting the pieces back together. First, with themselves, then possibly with the galaxy. If it's just Luke and a small handful of other Jedi that he's trained himself, then that task is huge. The civilian population would have huge leftover distrust of all force users. The Jedi would be on the outside of things, helping out where they can, but then slipping back into the shadows. Seeking no reward or congratulations or admiration, and most importantly - no power in governance. Just simple jedi putting things right. Until that point, where the civilians have to have the Jedi fight with or for them.

    If we look to history, in many cases where Democracies have turned into Republics, which then turn into Empires (from within), the next step in that evolution, when those Empires fall, is that the revolution that takes it's place is sometimes no cleaner than what existed before it. In many cases, Empires fall to barbarian hordes - from the outside. Perhaps that could befall the Old Republic. Mandalorian Armies have now taken over vast areas in the weakened Galaxy. It could be messy. It could be brutal.
    darklordoftech and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  5. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
  6. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 2
    For all we know, Anakin (as a Force Ghost) could come back and kill any new Sith or old Sith that are still around. In some of the earlier drafts of RotJ, Obi Wan's ghost killed the Emperor by chopping his head off, so Lucas has toyed with the idea. I'm just using this as an example to prove that we still have no idea where they're going with this story. If anything, the whole plot surrounding the Chosen One, bringing blance to the Force, and Force Ghosts was never given a satisfactory explanation in the existing films, so this new trilogy would be a good place to delve into it. Darth Plagueis ties into a lot of it, so, as I've said before, he would make a good villain if they go the Sith route, and he gets resurrected.
    JoeyArnold likes this.
  7. Spam Bot Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 1
    I'll share some ideas regarding this point that I came up with years ago, before there was any inkling of these new films. I developed an outline and fragmentary writings about a sequel trilogy, as a sort of personal fanfic that I felt would never be invalidated because I really didn't think they would continue the series on screen. So, in my own mind, a story emerged that continued the story.

    The following is an edited repost of something I shared in a thread about ST villains. I'll relate the ideas I shared about what I imagined as a Sith Cult:

    ***

    I maintained the position of the saga that the Sith had indeed been destroyed when Anakin threw Sidious in the garbage and then died himself. The prophecy to me is a mysterious topic, but I found that negating it by showing its source to be unreliable or that it was drastically "misread" was cheap and undermined the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin. In my sequel trilogy, there would be certain stipulations that the prophecy would have been referring to, which I'll explain presently.

    Firstly, even though "always two there are; no more, no less", I found it hard to believe that the Sith kept the knowledge of their own existence between two members at all times. There would be practical need for others "in on it, if not trained in the ways of the Dark Side, but not necessarily that of the Sith (in fact, necessarily they must not be). The films seem to suggest that one can fall to the Dark Side without becoming a Sith. It seems some special training or knowledge is required for that. Perhaps skills like Force Lightning (or that total immersion that makes their eyes turn yellow) are part of what gives a Force adept the title of Sith Lord. Being a mere "user" of the Dark Side doesn't cut it for me. Therefore, I postulated that, while there may have only been two Sith Lords at any given time since their fall over a millennia prior to TPM, there were a whole slew of followers around those two to serve them; practitioners of the Sith religion without being its priests.

    Think of Mas Amedda and that creepy looking bald woman that accompanied Sidious after his Chancellorship, and those robed figures leaving the Emperor's throne room when Luke is brought in (I think). Mas Amedda watched as Sidious threw Yoda across a room and just calmly walked out, reappearing after the fight was over by Sidious' side. Clearly, he was privy to some special information regarding "Palpatine's" true nature. In my story, all these people were part of a cult that the Sith built around themselves, teaching them just enough about the Dark Side that they could be used for whatever purposes they so designed but not enough to gain "Sithship". Imagine the Sith equivalent to Jedi Padawans whose training was intentionally kept incomplete, and brainwashed through "Sith Mind Tricks" (more like Sith Mind Domination) to be fervently loyal to their Sith Lords and preserve the secret of their existence. In this way, I satisfied myself that I had preserved the "Rule of Two" and the validity of the prophecy.

    The Sith are over. Gone. Dead. Prophecy fulfilled. All that's left are their little Dark Side fanatic parasites. But they're pissed.

    At the onset of Ep. VII, these Sith Acolytes have lost the only ones who could perpetuate their dogma. And, on account of their brainwashing by Sidious, they reject any usurper of the Sith mantle (those strong enough to break the Mind Domination). In fact, some principal acolytes may actually be free of the Mind Domination, but still maintain (through lingering loyalty fostered over their lifetimes in the cult) that a Sith should possess Sith teachings, which no one has anymore. So, the Sith are royally screwed. And they have Luke Skywalker to thank for it.

    I envisioned the Sith Cult being led by a woman, who emerged as the de facto Steward to the Sith Lords amongst the power vacuum. Picture that Ep II concept art for the female Sith that was replaced by Count Dooku, but led to Assaj Ventress. Throw in a bit of Kreia from KOTOR II. Hell, perhaps she is that freaky bald chick seen in the PT that I mentioned earlier. Let's call her Sarios Morne, the matriarch of the Sith Cult. The most powerful adept of the Dark Side left in the galaxy, but a Sith she ain't.

    Morne and her Sithly cohorts scramble to consolidate the Cult, who are going absolutely and literally insane without their Sith Lords. Their brainwashing causes them to despair, leading to more than a few suicides by the more deeply programmed ones. Those audacious enough to posture as true Sith are quickly killed by their panic-stricken but still loyal co-religonists. Morne, having had a close relationship with Sidious for years, commands a degree of clout in the Sith remnant and unites the acolytes, promising them, if nothing else, their final revenge against the Jedi; by destroying Luke Skywalker.

    So, Morne keeps tabs on Luke's travels, who I had on an extended sojourn through the Galaxy, withdrawing from the Civil War and trying to perpetuate the Jedi teachings but not having much luck. Luke has a pupil (I named him Kane), who is exceptionally strong in the Force, but somewhat old and headstrong (liken him to young Anakin, if you want). The training isn't going well, as Luke is barely a Jedi Knight, let alone a master. Luke is ill-equipped to handle the rearing of new Jedi. I'll abbreviate what happens next; another Jedi Master who survived the Purge (let's call him Jobin) offers to complete Luke's training, but he must ditch the temperamental Kane, whose age makes his training too difficult for either of them to handle (Jobin isn't on the level of Obi-wan or Yoda who could, in theory, take on a student that old). So, Luke and Jobin leave Kane in his old life for the greater good of ensuring the future of the Jedi Order.

    Morne learns of this, and sees in Kane a way to exact revenge on Luke; by continuing his training in the Dark Side. Taken under the tutelage of the Cult, the impressionable Kane is allowed to turn to the Dark Side, revelling in the power that that his former teacher bade him to never touch. Feeding on his anger, his resentment for being abandoned, Kane hones his skills for one purpose; to kill Luke Skywalker.

    Meanwhile, Luke completes his training under Jobin, mastering the Jedi Arts swiftly on account of his especial Force connection. Bestowing upon Luke the title of Master, the two part ways; Luke to return to the galaxy at large, Jobin off to find another student. Before Luke makes it back to Imperial space, he is confronted by the now teenage Kane, who has been transformed into a twisted mess, a ravenous warrior seething with hatred and bloodlust. As they duel, Luke tries to get past the rage, to help Kane transcend his passions, but it is no use. Luke is confounded by the skills that his former Padawan has acquired. In his struggle to defend himself, Luke accidentally deals a lethal blow. Horrified at what he has done to Kane physically by wounding him and spiritually by leaving him, Luke is shaken to his core with guilt and gives up the Jedi mantle.

    It would be seen that this was Morne's plan. She had Kane trained specifically to fail against Luke, knowing that he would be defeated. This was done to weaken Luke's conviction to restoring the Jedi Order, to make him more susceptible to the Dark Side. In this way, she plans to bring back the Sith. For Luke is part of the only legacy left by the Sith lineage; the Skywalker family is the direct result of Darth Plagueis' meddling with the midichlorians. Just as the original Skywalker arose out of the Force, so too will the Sith rise again out of the Skywalkers. They have a unique connection to the Force, and have the potential to be powerful enough to claim Lordship over the Sith. With Luke no longer a Jedi, Morne will attempt to have Luke lead the Cult and, perhaps one day, lead them as a Sith Lord. And if he doesn't, they will settle for revenge on him, setting sights on Leia and her unborn children.



    That takes us to about the end of Ep. VII, but there's a lot more I might share later. For example, I had it that the Sith Cult infiltrate the Rebel Alliance as Sidious did the Old Republic, and Kane's survival from the duel with Luke to become a Vader-esque cyborg in the last episode. But I won't bore you now ;)
  8. Spam Bot Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 1
    Thank you, but with all due respect, I think my question is quite separate from the links you posted. I'm not asking as to what people think the villains are going to be. I'm asking as to how the presence of Sith post-ROTJ might be taken by fans; as a betrayal of the events of the PT and OT, or if people are open to it.

    But thank you for your concern. I will try not to duplicate topics.
  9. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Why did Sidious mention Plagueis to Anakin in the Revenge of the Sith? It may have been a set up because Plagueis is still out there. Maybe the Plagueis book is not completely canon. Because the future films could contradict any book of the Extended Universe they want. Future films could deal with jedi civil wars or with fighting the sith. But people need to realize that Sidious & Vader may have not been the only sith out there.

    The assumption is that Darth Bane and his apprentice was the last two sith in the Star Wars universe, and that the rule of two came from him and that all existing sith descended from him and the remaining sith were killed in the Return of the Jedi. I strongly disagree with that assumption.

    There can be lost ancient sith out there somewhere. Anybody can become a sith, too.

    If the Plagueis book says that Tenebrous did die, then I say burn that book.
    Last edited by JoeyArnold, Nov 22, 2012
  10. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    I understand, but your question about how we, the fans, feel about any potential Sith appearing actually is discussed at great length in both of those threads and I think your contribution to either of those threads would be most welcome. But I'm not a mod or anything, I'm just trying to help. [face_love]
  11. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    There are more people that will love the sith than there are people who don't.
  12. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    It's hard for me to imagine Star Wars without the Sith, and I'm not sure I'd want to, so what I'm hoping is that they are able to bring back the Sith while not only staying true to the prophecy but finding a way to expand the scope of it while still managing to keep Anakin at the center of it. It would be a tricky writing task for a number of reasons, but in no way impossible, and for all we know this could be something already at the core of Lucas's idea for the ST.
  13. LANDO_ROCKS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2002
    star 4
    At no point in the film does anyone say "Once Vader is redeemed and the Emporer is defeated that is that - no other Jedi will ever fall and become evil!"

    The fact that there is even a term "Sith" is a bit annoying really, anyone who uses the force and who gets 'seduced by the dark side' should be just as dangerous regardless of what they call themselves.

    I don't think you should see the re-emergence of the Sith as a failure, I think it proves that where ever there is light, there is dark. Good can't exist without bad etc.

    Luke's triumph in ROTJ wasn't so much defeating the Sith, it was allowing his father to redeem himself.
    Jedi Merkurian and Pro Scoundrel like this.
  14. CaptainRegor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    The Sith really shouldn't be in the new trilogy because of Anakin's destiny.
    There are many ways not to have the Sith involved just look at the comics with Admirals like Thrawn and species like the Yuuzhan Vong, even if they go completely original they have examples from the EU to draw inspiration from.
    Maybe even a Rouge Jedi but no true Sith's so soon after.
    Last edited by CaptainRegor, Nov 22, 2012
  15. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    This. =D=

    The antagonist in the future film(s) could be anyone. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves, though. The main question will be, how far along in rebuilding Force-sensitive Jedi will we be when Ep 7 kicks in . If you have a lot of students, you will have the ones (let's call them the "Slytherin" contingent) who just have to try out some Dark Side powers to see what's up. Once that happens, it's all over and "bad Jedi"/"Sith"/"Dark Jedi"/whatever will be the new driving force of evil. However, there has to be something *else* to make the story interesting or you end up with a "bad guy of the week" plot. Like an evil politician in over his/her head who tries to recruit some New Sith and gets more than he/she bargained for. A New Sith plot to destroy a colony or something from which to launch a new attack, said colony being home to a future Super Jedi a la Anakin. Anything.

    It's all Good vs Evil, but the details of the story are what is going to matter.
  16. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Yes. You can have no sith but it will not be as exciting without them. It is like lowering the bar. If you come out with great bad guys, then do not come up with a sequel with a smaller villain. It is like making a new sequel to Rocky where he beats up a little kid. Of course jedi can fight the greatest bad guys except for the sith who are practically the evil versions of sith.

    Bringing the sith back doesn't undo what Anakin did because Yoda says "A prophesy misread, could been." And I doubt that the prophesy said that he would kill all the sith. I believe it only said that he would bring balance to the light side of the force. I believe the balance refers only to the good side of the force but like the ying and the yang, I don't believe that you can banish the dark side completely, or at least not yet. and who says Vader is totally dead yet

    and who says the prophesy didn't actually read that he would bring balance to the force through his son?
  17. DarthMateous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 4
    I'd like to see the Sith being "reborn" at the end of the new trilogy to set-up the possibilities for future involvement.
  18. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    can the sith be the good guys in the next six films to keep the audience guessing?
  19. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    No more Sith. A heavy that uses powers that are different from the Force would be interesting.
    darklordoftech and Varguitas like this.
  20. Avnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2007
    star 2
    How would it be any different if the sith return than in our world when you kill 1 terrorist and another takes his place? etc
  21. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Every James Bond film is about the jedi fighting the sith.
  22. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    Man, some people in here really don't get the point of Star Wars. George Lucas has said that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy several times. If anything, it would be better if these movies are much more ethereal and if the bad guy is now a Nightsister or a Force wielder, or some other practitioner of the dark side of the Force.
    Dude it's very different to be a guy who kills and terrorizes people than to be a guy who practices an ancient Satanic religion which it's knowledge and capacity to become one has passed from generation to generation. Once their gone, the capacity to become a Sith should die with them.
    I
    The Sith are basically a satanic sect. It's not possible by any stretch of the imagination for them to be ''good''. Otherwise they can't be Sith.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  23. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    I pretty much agree with you. Having Mother Talzin or her descendants be the next villain would be very interesting.
  24. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    There will be a force-using villain in the ST, that you can be sure of. What the villain will be called is anyone's guess.
  25. LANDO_ROCKS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2002
    star 4
    Huh?

    Remember when everyone thought the Sith were extinct? Like they hadn't been seen in a 1000 years?

    No one could believe it, they basically said it was impossible because they got rid of all of them.

    Qui-Gon Jinn: [describing his encounter with Darth Maul] He had all the lightsaber fighting capabilities and the moves of the Jedi, only faster and more agressive. My only conclusion... is that it was a Sith lord.
    Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible! The Sith are extinct! They have been for nearly a millenium.
    Mace Windu: I agree. The Sith would not have returned without us sensing it.
    Yoda: Hard to see, the dark side is. We must investigate further before drawing a conclusion to the idenity of your adversary.
    Last edited by LANDO_ROCKS, Nov 22, 2012