Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond' started by Spam Bot, Nov 22, 2012.
The vagaries of the prophecy are pointed out a couple of different times, when Obi-Wan says its a very Jedi-centric prophecy, and when Yoda stated the prophecy could have been misread. The Sith have supposedly been extinct for a thousand years with the Jedi and the light side in complete dominance, so from that viewpoint you could construe the force being out of balance. Then after Anakin turns and Order 66, there are two Jedi and two Sith, so one could construe that as the force being balanced. I never said I thought that way, I just listen to the opinions of others even when I disagree with those opinions. I tend to believe that Anakin balanced the force by throwing Darth Sidious down the shaft.
I don't see any evidence of this.[/quote]
Well I thought the fact that they were able to become force ghosts and did not reproach him for any attachments that he already had, speaks of a more progressive and complete view.
OK, fair enough. To my mind, people who contradict Lucas on his own story are just mistaken or factually wrong, but perhaps that's my own shortcoming (only a Sith deals in absolutes!). And it's not like the prophesy is unretconnable anyway. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I may actually prefer a retcon.
Except that doesn't make sense in the context of TPM. Why would the Jedi speak in hopeful terms of a prophecy foretelling their own loss of so-called "dominance"? During the PT the Force is unbalanced toward the dark, not the light. It was never said in canon that the Jedi unbalanced the Force toward the light or equivalently caused the light side to actually be dominant in any meaningful way. The imbalance in the Force results primarily from actions taken upon the Force by the Sith, actions which ( as far as we know ) have no parallel in the behavior of the Jedi.
Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users. Force-users are not the Force. Additionally, as has already been pointed out, Obi-Wan's ROTS dialogue says that the Force is not in balance by the end of that film.
I doubt we will see an active Sith in Ep 7. Maybe a dark curious Jedi will find some holocrons, thus enabling the return of Palps/Vader in a limited capacity as hologramatic teacher(s). Its possible that would lead to a new Sith threat in Ep 8, but that's just speculation on my part. Man, I'm just enjoying all the ideas and rumours. So glad I joined this forum finally!
The Jedi have left holocrons all across the galaxy that Luke can find and learn from... you know the Sith have as well. Both orders survive.
If a Jedi/Sith "head count" is not what drives the balance of the force, then, whatever does balance the force is something that hasn't been explicitly shown in any of the films to date. (The "unbalancing" the Sith supposedly did, if it's not by their mere existence, has never been shown). Following this strain of interpretation, the Sith head count is independent of the prophecy, and leaves the sequel trilogy room to make either choice (Sith or No Sith), and not contradict the "fulfilled prophecy" interpretation.
Bottom line is, this is ambiguous territory, open to interpretation and revisiting.
That is essentially a meaningless statement. It was shown in ROTJ; it was described in ROTS.
Not in the films - predictably enough, you're acting as if anything not shown in the films doesn't happen - because in large part it took place before the chronologically earliest film. The Force itself has never been shown.
This notion is problematic on mutliple levels. It was not stated that balancing the Force should mean that it could never again become unbalanced, nor is it necessarily true that any future Sith would unbalance the Force.
Jedi numbers are independent of the prophecy; Palpatine-era Sith numbers are not. In this sense the notion of equal numbers of Jedi and Sith - that which is connoted by "Jedi/Sith head count" - is irrelevant to the prophecy.
No, that is false. You don't get concessions such as dumping Anakin as Chosen One ( supposedly proven by an all-important "Fact File" ) just for admitting the falsehood of the substitution "balance of the Force" = "balance of Force-users". Force-users are not the Force and the balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users. The substitution of Force-users for the Force is invalid. Anakin being the Chosen One and balancing the Force being exactly the way Lucas describes it are in no way mutually exclusive propositions. They're just two things you're trying to get rid of, and you seem to think that if you have to accept one then you can throw out the other.
Anakin brings balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. I find that quite clear from the movies. Sorry but I really don't get what's not to understand.
Here's what Lucas says on the ROTS DVD:
I am very sorry my friend but you should have respect to the people who believe in God. Jesus did exist, if you don't believe me go ahead and see the testimonies the Romans wrote about Jesus. And yes, they are similar, so that comparison is valid, on the contrary to what you believe. Part of the reason why I like Star Wars it's because it gives a general view of God that exists in most religions, and that good and evil exists, and that is seen with the concept of the Force. So yes Anakin and Jesus are a valid comparison, I don't care what some people who have no respect for the faith of others think.
I'm converting to Anakinanity/Lucasanity.
I agree. Balance of the force is restored by destroying Palpatine and Vader in ROTJ. That is clear.
But where I don't necessarily agree is that any potential re-emergence of Sith necessarily invalidates the role of the 'chosen one' prophecy. And any arguments I'm making in this respect are playing Devil's Advocate; I truly have no dog in this fight. I trust Michael Arndt implicitly and whichever choice he makes on this specific issue, I really don't care.
As Yoda has said, the state of that prophecy in the Jedi order isn't held as a purely black-and-white central tenet of their belief system. Even Yoda allows for wiggle room in the interpretation of that prophecy.
Retaining the importance of Anakin's role in Jedi lore, while making anything post-Anakin seem equally relevant, will be one of Michael Arndt's fundamental challenges for setting up the sequel trilogy (and future films). An extremist interpretation on Anakin's exalted Chosen One status could create the sense that anything following it would be inherently and vastly diminished in comparison.
But I think the genius of Lucas's creation here is that there's plenty of room for creating new challenges, be there future Sith or no future Sith. I'd prefer no-Sith myself, mainly because I'd like to see new aspects of Jedi and the force explored. Perhaps 'balance' of the force isn't the most important challenge that Jedis face in communing with that mysterious life-creating energy field. Maybe the force itself can run out and disappear, maybe the force can stay in balance but become highly polarized with ultra-extreme dark elements coinciding with ultra-extreme light elements. Etc. Etc.
Perhaps Anakin wasn't THE chosen one, but rather A chosen one? And another chosen one may rise again when needed. Given how much Lucas was inspired by Joseph Campbell, and Campbell's fascination with Eastern spiritual traditions, that would give the Jedi order a more eastern-tradition vibe. A singular Chosen One of highest importance is more of a Western-tradition path.
Lucas has also made abrupt changes and contradicted himself over the overall scope of the story and reverse-engineered and retro-fitted an explanation, with varying degrees of success. I expect we are in store for one or two new ideas in the sequel trilogies that won't mesh perfectly cleanly with the PT and OT, and there's a convenient explanation for that. Like Lucas has said about the religions of the world, they're all just seeing one part of the elephant - same goes for these characters. They're just relaying their point of view. And those views are incomplete. We get to piece it together.
Nowhere does it say balance was permanent though nor would there be much to do. Sure no more Sith is possible enough provided no one goes to a certain planet or trips over a Holocron but no more dark force users now that is just absurd.
The Force is polarized by nature.
At the risk of us getting off-topic Varquitas, there is no need to be sorry friend. I do believe in God in some form, perhaps not the form man's many religions paint it as. God and religion are two completely separate entities, God created the universe and the elements which allowed life to develop on rocks such as the one we are on now, religion was created by man as a means to control gullible people who don't question what merits being questioned. To suggest that religions have a monopoly on God, and good vs evil, or that morality is the sole province of religions is completely erroneous. Perhaps both of us should have respect for the ideas of people who don't believe the same things as you or I do. History is replete with examples of great evil and some good performed by religious people and good and evil deeds performed by people who aren't religious. Perhaps I mis-spoke/mis-typed, a guy named Jesus did exist 2 thousand years ago, he was one among multiple "messiahs" that existed at the time, some of which performed their own miracles but didn't gain the following that one guy did. If you believe this guy is the son of God and that the Earth has only existed for ten thousand years, that is fantastic, I'm glad that you have the strength of your convictions. I apologize if i disparaged your beliefs. In the Star Wars films, I never saw Anakin heal people, or walk on water, or speak to his father (the force), or attempt to convert people to become Jedi, or turn water into membrosia, or start a following of believers, so I don't see any connection between JC and Anakin Skywalker other than the superficial stuff like he had no father. When people look deeper there isn't that much of a connection other than to see whatever they want to see, if your faith serves as an influence into your love of Star Wars that is awesome. The way I see the world plays into why I love Star Wars too, it's a testament to Star Wars that it is something that can bring people with different visions together.
So Anakin returned balance to the force, and then it gets unbalance again...I don't see the problem?
The Jedi think the Sith have been extinct for 1000 years, then somehow they come back. Then after ROTJ everyone thinks they are extinct again, but thirty years later maybe they are wrong again?
I don't mind as long as they don't involve Vader or Sidious
Let the sith be gone. lets get fresh villiany in here..
Actually I also think that evolution took place but that's another story.
Oh man, Anakinanity - I would laugh my tuchus off if there were missionaries like that in the ST. "Do you have a moment to talk about the Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker?"
Anakinanity: You either Anakin or Anakant.
Of course, but that's not really the point. If defeating the Sith "balanced" the Force, what the frick did they call the 1000 years that the Sith were thought to be exinct? Imbalance? Why wasn't there a prophecy for that? Or maybe there was. How often to they write these things up?
The Republic was corrupt throughout those 1000 years.
Hmmm. I don't remember that. Which movie explained? I could have sworn I heard one of those dudes on the council saying the Sith were extinct & had been for some time.