JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    IF there is a God, then
    1. why is there human-caused suffering? why is there evil? (examples: murder, rape, wars, burglaries, vandalism, car accidents, persecution, etc.)
    2. why is there nature-caused suffering? (examples: extreme weather, geological disasters, starvation, diseases, death, etc.)

    The Evolution thread was starting to be derailed by this topic, and it really deserves its own thread, being debated by people for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

    I'll post my thoughts later.

    But as a reminder... no generalizing, no stereotyping, no name-calling, everyone should be respected even if you strongly disagree with their views.

    The beliefs of theists are just as diverse as the beliefs of atheists. Just like the only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in god(s), the only thing theists have in common is a belief in god(s). There is a great diversity of beliefs even with a single religion, or a single denomination, or a single place of worship. Just something to keep in mind when everyone is making their arguments.
    Last edited by Darth-Ghost, Sep 11, 2012
  2. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    So the big bold IF is making me wonder: are we required to take god's existence as axiomatic, or can we construct a non-god system?
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 11, 2012
  3. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    It's an if then. So I think we can treat this as creating a hypothetical with that given. So I'm going to go with "he's a petty jerk" or "he has no reason to care"
  4. Rosslcopter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 3
    Evil and suffering is the work of the devil!
    JediFalcon likes this.
  5. mrsvos Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    star 5
    And spicy Indian food. There's some pain and suffering, for the love of Vishnu.
    MASTERPRENN likes this.
  6. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Because you touch yourself at night.
  7. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    that joke has now reached its full potential and logical conclusion on this, the 11th day of the 9th month, in the year of our lord 2012

    let it be written. let this day live in infamy. let the eleventh day of september henceforth be known as Because You Touch Yourself At Night Day
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Sep 12, 2012
    Ender_Sai and DarthLowBudget like this.
  8. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Without religion, good people would still do good things, and evil people would still do evil things. But for good people to do evil things? That requires religion.

    So actually, God is the cause of many of the bad things in this world, whether or not he even exists.
  9. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    If we make the LARGE assumption that God both exists and is indeed "omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent" as Christianity typically claims (which is what this thread is presupposing in asking the question it does), then the only answer there can possibly be is "because there's a really good reason for it."

    That the "problem of evil" has provoked as much discussion as it has throughout history has always seemed kind of daft to me.
  10. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    If there is a God... what does he need with a starship?
    Souderwan and Darth_Invidious like this.
  11. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 9
  12. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    I would hope that it's because God has left us alone and these things occurred naturally for us to deal with. Supressing human nature wouldn't be right, in the end humans have the ability to eliminate such things from society (as displayed in the future world of Star Trek for example).
    Diseases are a part of nature and evolution, a way to maintain balance. If God just created evolution and left it alone, he had no hand in creating such things.


    Surely this comes down to evolution and natural selection. Life can't go on infinately, so natural processes challenge life and those that are strong enough to survive will do so. It's a self-managing system which is the best system. God might be omnipotent but keeping track of every individual of every species must be hard work, natural selection is easier and more entertaining.
    Last edited by SithLordDarthRichie, Sep 12, 2012
  13. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    Satan used to be an angel who started a war with God then he was sent down to Earth where he preys on the spiritually weak and tricks the spiritually strong to fall.
    Last edited by JediFalcon, Sep 12, 2012
  14. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Actually that's not true. Nationalism does the same thing.
  15. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    So, basically Satan's that one friend who always suggests tequila?

    I'm glad we're assuming "if" God's real, because now I don't need to invoke other make believe entities like Santa Claus, He-Man or R Kelly.

    Anyway, the point is more that you had to give a carrot with a stick when you made a religion so you said God was basically annoyed at us because we invented proto-jocks and stone-age Republicans and all the small minded hate and focus on stupid sports meant we missed the bigger picture so, like a mature leader, he's sulking by withholding his capacity to right evil. When we behaved again, he'd cover us with his love and evil would be gone. Yet when evil is smote, like Jersey Shore being cancelled, he doesn't turn around and spray God-love all over the world. And you know why?

    Because he's addicted to World of Warcraft.
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  16. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    As written by Milton? Or someone prior to him I guess. Regardless, these things are not the providence of any fictitious supernatural beings. War, crime, and all the horrible things human beings conceive to hurt or otherwise destroy one another are spawned from Man and nothing else.

    Natural disasters and epidemics are caused by nature itself, since we live in a dynamic and ever changing world full of other microorganisms that care little (because they can't care, after all) about how they affect us humans and any other living organism they infect. Earthquakes occur due to shifts in the Earth's crust; just as storms, hurricanes and tornados occur due to specific shifts in weather conditions, not the whims or even inaction of any deity. And of course some of the diseases that plague man are often due to the imperfect and frail nature of or bodies.

    So in the end, the only intangible force, element or whatever your want to call it all those things have in common it's simple random chance. Just bad luck or misfortune. And that isn't even a God we can curse or blame.
    Frank T. and SithLordDarthRichie like this.
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Free will?

    Again, this is an assumption, but how much of that can be a natural reaction of the planet/ecosystem/etc?

    Could you expand on that? I really don't see the correlation.
    Moviefan2k4 likes this.
  18. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Some evil exists naturally. But other evil exists because the perpetrators believe they are performing God's will. If there was no religion at all, there would be much less evil in this world.
  19. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    I've seen angels and dark angels, it makes it harder for me to deny it. And I even seen the big man himself in spirit in his white robe and gold borders around the bottom of his robe. Yeah it's kind of hard for me not to believe that God exists. Especially after those experiances and that is my testimony, you can either believe it or not but I can't deny what I saw.

    God does exist.
    Last edited by JediFalcon, Sep 12, 2012
    darthhelinith likes this.
  20. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Your problem is that you suppose that he cares. Do you think a chemist cares about what happens to the potassium when he puts it in water? He just wants to see what will happen.
    RC-1991 and Ender_Sai like this.
  21. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    IMO, humanity might be better off with teaching moral and soul searching in school and turning churches into art centers for the community. I just don't see what humanity can gain from believing in a god at this point anymore...
  22. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Oh, theodicy...

    Why are you so delicious?
  23. Adam of Nuchtern Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
  24. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    The creator of the universe is unaware of our existence in the same way that we are unaware of the bacteria that live in our belly buttons.
  25. GargantuanThrillMachine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 1
    there is no universal moral code that should dictate human behavior. there is no such thing as good or evil, there is no universal standard of right and wrong. our values and morals come from us and belong to us, whether we like it or not; so we should claim them proudly for ourselves, as our creations, rather than constantly seeking some external justification for them
    THE PortmanLuvva likes this.