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JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Indeed. Humans will ultimately always blindly follow something. Either religion, the state, the dictates of his own mind, etc.... Human nature is wicked and will always find something to justify it. Remove religion nothing changes. Remove nationalism nothing changes. The only thing that would work would be to remove humans.
     
  2. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    This is something a liar would say.
     
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  3. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    And I can call you a liar and say you actually believe it all. You can't prove me wrong.

    I can call anyone a liar about what they believe and it's impossible for them to prove me wrong. Only the individual knows what they truly believe.
     
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Oh, I did not know that! Thanks. That's much better than the other possibilities. But, once the CO is ruled out, she should still see a medical professional.
     
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Well, I thought this one over for a while, and the only conclusion I could come to was that god was, to echo several other folks, a jerk. Birth, in itself, is part of the dukkha-dukkha. If there is a god, I suffer because of it by virtue of its allowing events to come to pass that would cause my birth. Hell, not just me - dukkha is a mark of existence. Everything suffers and it's all the god's fault.

    I mean, I suppose by existing we are then capable of satta-visuddhi, but that seems really roundabout. I mean, REALLY roundabout, considering the end goal is non-existence.
     
  6. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 1999
    Ok, I'll humour you and say, yes, your visions were actually god and he decided to show himself to you, in order for you to have definitive proof of his existence.

    Why, then, are you so special? Why do you get the definitive proof thing whereas most if not all other religious people have to rely on faith? Isn't it a bit unfair that you get the personal visit rendering faith unnecessary, while others have to make do with reading the bible and prayer? You get definitive proof, and thus a free ticket to heaven, while others get sent to hell because they didn't believe? Why doesnt god just definitively appear in front of the whole world instead of just you? That would be kinda fairer on everyone.

    Also, what was the point of him visiting you anyway? Doesn't sound like he was telling you some kind of master, devine plan for you to do whilst on earth.
     
  7. Falcon

    Falcon Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    I don't know. Maybe I suffered some brain damage after falling backwards in the bathtub when I was four. All I remember was splashing, my mom getting mad about something to this day I can't remember what. The thing I remember the most was looking up at the top of the water while swallowing in lungs of water. These things started coming to me after that.

    I do remember I was afraid to learn to swim and I finally learned in the my early teens. I'm still afraid of diving in the water and still won't dive in the deepend for fear of drowning. That's something been with me and continues to be with me.
     
  8. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    As to the question. I suppose there are numerous reasons. If not for evil how could we know good? If none could die how could we understand the concept of sacrificing one's life? If there are no hardships how can we understand the sacrifice of giving so that another may have? Without need there can be no generosity. Without terror there can be no bravery. Perhaps God allows evil to show us good, for without evil could we have ever understood 'good'?

    Also perhaps God allows evil to exist for our behalf. If God is perfect and good then he cannot allow evil. Therefore he should destroy us all and purge us from existence. But we are not purged, instead he offers us forgiveness. Perhaps he tolerates evil only so that we have a chance to take his offer? Perhaps every moment he yearns to wipe away all the filth and evil in this world but his love for us stays his hand until the time comes where he can no longer wait and says 'enough'

    Perhaps he will soon destroy evil and suffering. After all for a being for whom time has no meaning, and he himself created time. When eternity stretches forth endlessly both ways... what is this time of suffering and evil to him but a small blip? Barely even noticeable on the timeline.

    Perhaps he allows evil so that through our suffering he might see our love and devotion. After all look at Job. For a God who suffered and died for us what better way could there be to show him our love and devotion than when great evil and suffering comes but to say 'Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.'

    In the end I don't know the actual answer. I'll have to wait to meet him and ask Him then. But until then... "as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
     
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  9. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Or perhaps Man invented God in his image to you know... control other men?
     
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  10. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    If so it is preferable. Man being governed by a perfect being, even if not real, is still infinitely preferable to man being governed by himself. Better man think he serves a perfect being than realize he serves only his own being.
     
  11. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2005
  12. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    I prefer being governed by myself.
     
  13. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    As unfortunately do all humans. :(

    Which is why we have evil and suffering.
     
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  14. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    This is the prevailing reason why I abandoned the Judeo-Christian worldview. A god who would allow senseless suffering and unfathomable evil is unworthy of acknowledgement, let alone worship.

    If there is a higher power--and that's a big if--I would imagine it's some impersonal cosmic energy force. It doesn't love us. It doesn't hate us. Doesn't even know we exist. It just keeps rolling along.
     
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  15. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    By that same logic a toddler who knows 'time out' as the worst punishment known to man can't understand why a loving parent would do that to them. Perspective changes things. A perfect all knowing all powerful omni-present being existing beyond the laws or our reality and beyond the scope of time likely has a perspective on such things as evil and suffering that we cannot begin to comprehend.
     
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  16. imiller

    imiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2004
    All depends on if you think there is a value higher than human happiness.
     
  17. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    See, my parents explained what I did wrong and why it was wrong. Good parents do that. They also stopped me from dying.
     
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  18. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    This is one of the consequences of inventing deities. You then have to expend entire libraries of paper trying to apologize on their behalf.
     
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  19. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2005
    IDK if death is evil though, DG. Isn't death just...natural? Not good or bad?

    Ignore this is that's not what you were arguing haha
     
  20. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    That doesn't cut the mustard with me. I wouldn't want to comprehend a deity that could perceive abuse, despair, exploitation, subjugation, torture, murder and genocide as transitory experiences.

    After all, pain is real; eternity...not so sure.
     
  21. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Indeed I do. Serving and obeying God is definitely, infinitely higher than our own happiness.

    But has not God given the rules? Has he not said what to do and what not to do? Has he not also given us the opportunity to not die? He has offered us forgiveness and eternal life with him all we need do is accept it. A good parent loves his children but he will not force them to be with him, if they choose destruction after all his council and offers are rebuked what else can he do but let them be?


    At least the libraries are smaller than the ones apologizing for mankinds own mistakes.


    But they are transitory experiences in the grand scheme of things. They are barely a footnote when compared to eternal damnation or eternal paradise.
     
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  22. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I'd say that if God were in control of the natural world, causing death from premature birth due to a genetic predisposition would be pretty evil of him. I was mostly making fun of the notion of God as a divine parent, though. Pretty awful parent all-around. For one thing, extremely negligent. Went out for a pack of cigs 2,000 years ago and never came back (or 1,400 years if you're Muslim).
     
  23. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    GenAntilles: If you saw a child playing in the middle of the road, amidst traffic, what would you do?

    A. Observe dispassionately, with the justification that the child is exercising his free will.

    B. Run and push the child out of danger.

    If you answered (B), congratulations, you possess a stronger moral code than the Judeo-Christian god.
     
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Why? He's a jealous, petty, insecure, vengeful, petulant jerk. A weak, insignificant little man with an overinflated sense of his self-worth. His death in our collective imaginations would be the greatest thing for humanity.
     
  25. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2005