JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    YOU'RE AN ABERRATION

    SEE WHAT I DID THERE
  2. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    yeah there are tons of people on this site whose views are actually representative of the kind of thinking that fuels evils like racism and classism in this world and you guys are piling on a woman who believes in ghosts. pretty lame, dudes

    that's really sad that you think so little of yourself, man. i dont know you, but i want you to know that im sure you're not that bad.
    MASTERPRENN and Ender_Sai like this.
  3. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9

    This highlights another of his failures - man. He made man with the capacity and will to fail him. He's a capricious jerk, General. Or, more accurately - only humans could make so illogical and ironic an entity as God?

    This time around, Mr Knee-Bender, will God reveal himself to more than just a bunch of heatstroked peasants in the deserts of Arabia, or hillbillies in the US?

    Just checking. Because Jesus seems a poor judge of his audience.

    To quote Christopher Hitchens, "name me an ethical statement made or action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer."

    Also, if killing a fictional character like god leaves a scorched Earth, would killing the Tooth Fairy or Superman merely ruin a continent?

    EDIT: Rogue, there's nothing wrong with classism. God the Electric Turbo Wizard didn't create supercars for the proletariat to drive from one booze-soaked hellhole to another!
    Last edited by Ender_Sai, Sep 13, 2012
  4. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    I dish out the hate to those guys all the time. This is a welcome change of pace.
  5. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I'm not racist. I hate everyone!

    "Everyone" meaning Slovenians.
  6. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    The most unmoral thing I have heard in my decades of life is the idea that I would run around and rape and kill if it suited my needs without a god to tell me otherwise.

    I am an atheist. There is no God, Thor, Zeus, Allah, Jesus, Galactus, Lucifer, Gilgamesh, Ra, Set, or any other related god or supernatural being. Yet, I do not run around raping and killing.
    Darth_Invidious and Frank T. like this.
  7. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    This brings up an interesting essay by Frans B. M. DeWaal named "Morality and the Social Instincts: Continuity with the Other Primates" The Tanner Lectures on Human Values Delivered at Princeton University, Nov. 19-20, 2003 that says that our morals are instinctive and have developed over millions of years of group living. So, our morals are not derived from some Superbeing some call God but from our own hardwiring.
  8. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    Exactly... had she answered my questions about where and when this took place, or provided a news article, her story could have been easily verified. A would be shooter being constrained in an abortion clinic surely would have made the news. But, being that she was unwilling to provide anything to back up her story, other than saying people tell her that she's a very honest person, I think I'm justified in not believing her.
    Lord_Vivec likes this.
  9. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Regardless of whether she provided proof positive of her experiences, she really, truly believes that these visions happened to her and I think we could have been more gracious in our handling of the situation.
    MASTERPRENN likes this.
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    But, like Al Gore claiming credit for the internet, God could turn up and say, "yes ,but who was GUIDING YOU THROUGH THAT GROUP LIVING PERIOD?". Then he'd give a knowing wink (which His priests could later interpret creatively under the Book of Catholic, 5:20-23) and, being a jerk, take credit for the morals we developed before we had create God and his rules.
  11. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Well, since most religious people don't accept evolution, that's kind of a stretch. But, I was mentioning the essay because it relates more directly to GenAntilles statements that humans are basically not moral unless they believe in God.
  12. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    It's a rather cynical view of humanity, no, to think that humans cannot be moral without some divine intervention?
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I don't think it's fair to say most religious people don't accept evolution. Certainly the US has an astounding number of people who believe in literal creation and whom I would call idiotic, but I don't think it's a global epidemic.

    God is just doing some market research here. He's seeing how evolution tests with the Christian brand. So far, mixed results, but if there's a Don Draper in heaven... it's God.
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  14. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Well, is there a culture on Earth whose moral standards/rules did not originate in some religion?
    Last edited by Mar17swgirl, Sep 13, 2012
  15. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    Or, she really truly wants us to believe these things happened to her.
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  16. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    So, what, all religions have intervening gods now?
  17. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    I didn't realize how many shootings happened at abortion clinics in that time frame. If you really must know it was dr. Tillman now that I'm thinking about it but there's so many articles in that time frame it's hard to find the correct one and he was the target of more then a few attacks. I thought it was the other one because I do remember seeing the girl on the phone as the gunman walked in. I was thirteen at the time and that was nearly twenty years ago. But I did find the mention of his girlfriend having an abortion in the 1970s by Dr. Tillman. Trying to find the right article is difficult and I didn't think of keeping something like that.
  18. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Indeed. I have a very low opinion of humanity even if they believe in a higher power that will zap them for misbehaving.

    Without the idea(true or false) of a supreme being instilling a moral doctrine in society that all men must follow... eventually people will realize that the only doctrine they need follow is the one they think of that gives them the most gain. Each man will become his own god and he will worship and praise himself, he will fight wars in his name and sacrifice others to fuel his greatness.

    Man will always worship gods.
  19. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    My morals are derived from Bill and Ted. Be excellent to each other.
  20. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
  21. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    According to anthropology and evolution, humans have been living in social groups for hundreds of thousands of years and maybe for a few million years, so yes, being moral precedes any God having intervened.
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Um...

    Most cultures morals didn't originate in religion. Religion, taking God's lead in taking credit for everything, claimed the high ground unjustly.

    Ever asked Varg Vikernes why he burned churches? :p
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Wasn't that Wayne's World? :p

    Bill and Ted's had a Faith No More academy. Sign me up!
  24. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I think being "Excellent" to each other is a good thing.
  25. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    BLASPHEMY!