JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I've had very vivid dreams, so I know that Falcon really thinks she experienced these visions as they felt very real at the time. That she can't differentiate them from reality is what worries me.
  2. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, but living in social groups doesn't really equal having a moral code. After all, there are many animals who live in social groups, and you wouldn't say that animals have a concept of morality, would you? :p
    Last edited by Mar17swgirl, Sep 13, 2012
  3. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    star 6
    Primates do. Or have all chimpanzees just spontaneously found god?
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 13, 2012
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

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    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
  5. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
  6. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Seriously. Here's the opening paragraph of the essay I listed earlier:





    Homo homini lupus

    —“man is a wolf to man”—is an old Roman proverb
    popularized by Thomas Hobbes. Even though it permeates large parts of
    law, economics, and political science, the proverb contains two major
    errors. First, it fails to do justice to canids, which are among the most
    gregarious and cooperative animals on the planet (Lorenz

    1954
    ; Schleidt
    and Shalter

    2003
    ). But even worse, the saying denies the inherently
    social nature of our own species.
  7. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    From what I've learned in my rather small study of primatology (2 classes in college), apes have displayed some evidence of basic morality.
  8. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I think dolphins, whales, elephants, crows, parrots, and dogs have done the same.
    Last edited by Darth-Ghost, Sep 13, 2012
  9. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Basically, highly social animals with sophisticated brains. Sounds like some people!
    Darth_Invidious and harpuah like this.
  10. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5
    [IMG]
  11. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    You'll have to read the essay to understand how wolves and dogs are social and take care of each other.
  12. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    yeah my dog has more advanced morality than at least 2/3rds of y'all
  13. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    No, you don't know that. You can't base your assessment on her story based on your experience.

    Today she was 13 when it happened... yesterday she was14.
  14. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5

    But what about big-lipped alligators?
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  15. mrsvos Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    star 5
    What about my big a%^? What did I do to deserve this?
  16. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Sorry, the essay is about mammals, not reptiles.

    Hmm, details are changing--that's probelmatic. And the feeling of being 'held down' during a dream is pretty common, it's because our bodies become paralyzed during dreams so we don't hurt ourselves by trying to throw ourselves out of bed, etc. And we become functionally blind during sleep, too.
  17. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    sleep paralysis is an interesting phenomenon because its culturally known in some parts of the world but the modern anglosphere is not one of those places so english speakers tend to load their sleep paralysis experiences with all sorts of interesting imagery and meaning, typically around angels and demons or aliens, but sometimes even rape by loved ones, which is problematic as **** to begin to tease out from legit rape

    fun fact the term "nightmare" comes from "the mare (archaic equivalent of "old hag") that comes in the night". it harkens back to middle english explanations for sleep paralysis involving a witch coming and sitting on your chest in the night (for some reason)

    [IMG]

    ^pictured: leekenobi posting in a good thread while dave looks on :p

    havent we had a few jcers describe instances of sleep paralysis and cite them as reasons for personal faith in the past? i feel like wormie and possibly arlon have done this. anyways, sleep paralysis experiences, whether involving a demon, aliens or bob's your uncle are supposedly extremely vivid and feel very real to the person involved. i wonder how many of these people have ever actually been swayed from their belief that calling for jesus saved them from the demon that was sitting on them choking them to death or whatever. i think it must be exceedingly hard to fight that kind of visceral, faith-based experience, especially in societies like ours where prior knowledge ("folk knowledge", as we anthropologists would say) of sleep paralysis is quite rare
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Sep 13, 2012
    Darth-Ghost likes this.
  18. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, but I learned of the phenomenon by reading about alien abduction stories. It seems that the demons/witches of old have been replaced with more modern imagery.
  19. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    yeah, as i mentioned in my post the second most common explanation offered by individuals for their sleep paralysis experiences in the united states is "aliens"

    i kind of wish id had one of these experiences so id know what it felt like. alas, i usually dont remember my dreams to begin with...
  20. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I remember dreams, some of which I can't stop thinking about for days. I talk and sometimes yell in my sleep. I've had hallucinations when I was half-awake. I frequently sleep walked when I was a kid. But I can't recall any sleep paralysis. :( Then again, I'd probably think it was entirely a dream if I remembered it at all.
    Last edited by Darth_Guy, Sep 13, 2012
  21. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    I experienced a very vivid sleep paralysis three years ago. I went to bed after coming home from a night shift, and dreamt that I just woke up (everything looked real) and couldn't move for some reason - not even raise my head. I panicked, woke up with a start (for real) and jumped up, relieved that I wasn't paralysed at all. :p It was a very scary feeling, though, dreaming that I couldn't move.
  22. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5
    Psst...All Dogs Go To Heaven.
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    So Mars, I gather you believe in god.

    So tell me, when we developed moral codes in pagan cultures prior to the onslaught of Christianity...

    Did those pagan cultures worship real gods who just disappeared when The Realest of Gods came along? Or is it conceivable that the reason Man linked his sense of right and wrong to a fabricated higher power was to ensure compliance with those ideals? A carrot and stick approach - the carrot is heaven, the stick is hell? No?
  24. imiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2004
    star 3
    If you start from the assumption that God doesn't exist, or that specific truth claims about God are automatically wrong, why do you ask questions? Or are you more interested in disproving opposing viewpoints?
  25. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    I've had sleep paralysis before. It's weird and crazy as ****. But it doesn't mean jack about the supernatural.
    It's a valid assumption to start with as there has been no empirical evidence for any supernatural events. This correctly places the burden of proof on anyone making the claim that god exists.
    Last edited by Lord_Vivec, Sep 13, 2012