JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

ES, those aren't the only two options.

But this thread starts with the premise that IF there is a God (or godess or gods or whatever), then how could suffering and evil exist within that worldview? Especially when God (or whatever) is supposedly powerful, knowing, and loving.

Precisely. I don't necessarily mind assuming God doesn't exist (since our belief has nothing to do with the actual metaphysical reality of God), but it seems like kind of a raw assumption in this particular thread...unless the purpose of the thread is different than the title implies...

****s and/or giggles.

Two things that made me an atheist.

1. Mkay, so according to the Bible, you need to believe in God, and Jesus' resurrection and previous death for our sins to get into heaven to, yknow, get into heaven. Well how the hell are people who have never heard of God, Jesus, or Christianity supposed to get in? The only reason most Christians are Christians is because they were raised that way. If a person of another religious influence came up to you and told you that you had to convert to their religion right this minute or else you'd go to hell, what would you say. That's how I see it for all of the other religions when someone tries to convert them to Christianity.

And what about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroasters, etc etc? Because they've been raised their whole life by everyone they've ever loved to believe something that's wrong, they automatically go to hell? No loving, fair God who gave everyone a chance would rig the system like that. A child who was born in Africa and dies of starvation four or five years later did nothing wrong. They don't deserve to burn for unnecessary ignorance. The basic system of belief, for anyone of any kind of moral base to them, who cares about their fellow man, simply DOES NOT work.

2. So Heaven is the perfect place, right? You've got all of your family up there, chillin' with your pal Jesus, but wait, I really loved that family member that sinned. Yeah they were a sinner, but that doesn't change the fact that I loved them. And they're going to hell. And I'm going to heaven. But heaven can't be heaven if I don't have that person. It can't. You can talk about how you have a relationship with God, Jesus, angels, whatever, but you don't LOVE him like you love your family, your friends. What kind of afterlife is it if you can't have those you suffered here on Earth with.

Also, JediFalcon's life would make a great episode of Twilight Zone/X-Files/Fringe.

The song "Twilight Zone" was on the radio when I was driving home from work, and now I have it stuck in my head again.

Not all Christians have that view of Hell. Catholics and many Protestants believe you don't have to be a Christian to get into Heaven. Most don't have a literal view of the Bible too. Even the fundamentalists reject some parts. Also, EVERY Christian believes that everyone is a sinner, and that sinners go to heaven, that's why forgiveness is essential. And I find evangelicals who are always trying to convert everyone to be very annoying and disrespectful too, though I understand it's out of a misplaced sense of love.

But anyways, that posts belongs more in the "what do you believe" thread than here (also, see my first post in that thread)

Really? This is news to me. What's their rationale behind this?

I think, when all is said and done, that's the only moral compass one needs. Funny enough, that's JC's main teaching, changing a word here and there. But you don't need a god or someone claiming to be the one of to tell you that.

You actually find that same idea popping up in most religions, both pre- and post-dating Christianity.

It's simple decency and common sense after all. But again, you don't need a religion to tell you that. When living and working together with others, even the most rudimentary species will know that good coexistence is beneficial to all within a society.

Yep - there is a self-organizing principle at work in nature (at the physical and biological level) that serves as a naturalistic basis for morality. I was first introduced to it in Erich Jantsch's The Self-Organizing Universe when I was an undergraduate.

It's in the Catholic Catechism, I think the change there was acknowledged in the 1960's that non-Christians and even atheists can go to Heaven. They just say their way is the guaranteed way, but there are other ways too.

Mormons believe that just about everyone goes to Heaven, there are just 3 levels of Heaven, with only the Antichrist and a couple others being evil enough to go to the "Outer Void"/Hell. (I think most Muslims have a similar belief system).

Mainstream and "liberal" Protestants, usually not the newer evangelical/pentacostal types but the more established ones, also believe you can go to Heaven without necessarily being a Christian.

As for my own rationale, it's in the first post of that thread I linked to. I think "following" Christ means following his teachings, loving and forgiving one another, that's when God dwells in us and we dwell in God. I could back it up by Bible passages if you want.

I thought just about every Protestant church says that believing in Jesus is the only way into heaven, and that loving and forgiving one another is good but not enough. I assumed that there were passages in the Bible that explicitly spell this out...actually I can think of one, John 14:6, but I don't know how open to interpretation that is.

Following Jesus is the only way to Heaven...

And you follow Jesus by............ following his teachings.

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross has made it possible for all those who love, truly love, to go to Heaven.


From the quote you just gave me:

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Here's the verses immediately after that verse:

Here's another bible passage, from the First Epistle of John, chapter 4:

And the first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 13:

EDIT: Anyways, this discussion better belongs in the other thread.

I'm gonna probably get a lot of **** for this, but I'm gonna come out and say that I believe that what JediFalcon experienced was what she said it was.

I am of faith (christian) and I've heard and seen enough in the world to decide for myself that there's both a physical and spiritual dimension, and that good and evil spirits exist, and that you do not, on any accounts, want to tangle with the latter. I don't have the gift of seeing spirits or angels ( I have other spiritual gifts instead) but I have both felt their presence and heard accounts from others who can see them and I believe they're very real.

I could hug you just about now

People have superpowers now?

Yeah what?

I just can't believe this. Broad claims of supernatural powers, other dimensions, all supported by personal narratives and vague statements like "I've seen enough of this world." The lack of scientific integrity is disgusting.

Look at you with back to back homeruns.