If you didn't before, do you *still* disagree with Kyp's approach in light of today's tragedy?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by barnsthefatjedi, Sep 11, 2001.

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  1. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    I think what happened today is a very real and terrible example of the sort of situation in the GFFA at the moment.

    Do you still think that Kyp is wrong to go out and attack the Vong? Do you still agree with Luke's pacifist approach?

    If you do, then surely you think it is wrong for America to retaliate to these terrorist assaults?

    Your thoughts?
  2. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know Barns...I don't think I can answer that today...
  3. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
    I agree.

    This is an offical ask of the admin team, please take a breather, allow time for the tragedy with repsect for those lost . . .

    Please no threads comparing to the tragedy . . .
  4. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Isn't what Kyp is doing, the same thing that got Thrawn in trouble with his people?
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Moreso than ever.

    Kyp is exactly the type of people who did this.

    Now recognize why I disagree with Kyp.

    I don't want to become a monster like he is....

  6. Peacekeeper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2001
    star 3
    But there is a difference...
    The worldship the vong were building would have been used against the NR...
    so are we saying that we should not attack any installation/ship just because it is not being used for military use at that moment?
  7. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Kyp is nothing like the people who did this.

    They attacked innocent people. He attacked military targets of an invading force to defend his home.

    Now recognize why his thinking is needed.

    Monster? For getting revenge for all the people that died today? I can deal with that. Be happy there are people willing to accept that title so that you can keep writing it.
  8. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    I stiil disagree with Kyp. If Kyp was running the US right now, Palistine and Afganistan would be already being bombed, whether or not they were responsible for what happened.

    I still support the path that Luke and Bush are taking: learn what's going on, protect and defend whenever possible, but don't go around blowing stuff up until they know what's going on.
  9. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "If Kyp was running the US right now, Palistine and Afganistan would be already being bombed"


    Kyp is attacking the responsible people. And yes once the U.S. discovers who did this for sure I want them to retaliate.
  10. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    No, Kyp is not necessarily attacking the responsible people, or going about it in the right way.

    Let me use a slightly different historical analogy. Say Kyp was an Air Force officer in World War II. Lets say he discovers a large German military base in Poland. It looks like millions of Germans are camped there on three main bases. Acting on his own, without regard to chain of command, he attacks the camp, firebombing it, killing everyone present. While he did just destroy Auschwitz (good thing), he also has just killed about 3 million Jews (of whom about a sixth of which would have otherwise survived) (In my opinion, a bad thing).

    It?s one thing to bring justice, to drive back an aggressor. And that?s what the allies were able to do in WWII, and that?s what the Jedi and Republic will do in the NJO. It?s quite another to ignore all lines of command and attack anything that moves, in the name of retribution.

    If we do go to war with Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine, we should make recognize the difference between civilian and military targets. We should not bomb Mosques. We should not attack schools. We should avoid residential areas. We should act together, in unity, not with two or three different agenda?s or priorities.

    War is not a noble thing, and if ever there were such a thing as a necessary evil, it would be war. But war should not be made because of hurt national pride. It should not be made because of a desire for vengeance. War should be made for the cause of justice. War should be made to show that evil should not be allowed to continue to operate freely.

    ?He who fights monsters should take care that he does not become a monster.?

    Kyp is taking no care, and is in danger of becoming as great a monster as the Vong.
  11. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Quite possibly the best answer I've seen on the topic Gandalf. Excellent work.

    JMA
  12. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    well, I have to remind, that US, and allies bombed many big cities of germany to the ground, for example Frankfurt.

    Many civillians were killed, and the city was gone. All of it done to break the moral of the enemy.

    And the 2 atom bombs were dropped on 2 beutiful cities to show a "message" to japan. They weren't military targets.

    Then in the Gulf War, they shot missles into sadam's cities, and destroyed many peoples lives. Infact they blew up a hospitol just because sadam hid a powerplant(thought to give energy to sadam's bunkers) inside. Then there was also schools that hid military targets. The allies, only detected the powerplant, and other military related targets inside, and didn't know it was a hospital or schools, until after they blew them up.

    Things like this happens in wars, it's common.

    You can see this kind of thing in almost every war.
  13. ganner_rhysode Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2001
    star 4
    I agree that action needs to be taken but it must be based on irrevocable evidence and only at the people directly responsible.

    Don't get me wrong, my heart goes out to all those affected by this terrible tragedy.

    But just because these warped individuals had no qualms about killing innocents does not mean the civilised people of this world should follow suit. To do so means we are no better than they and to kill innocents in the name of those already taken in this horrific act would taint us all.
  14. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    I am sorry. I didn't mean for this thread to cause anyone offense. If you want it locked, then say just say so and I shall make sure it is.
  15. ganner_rhysode Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2001
    star 4
    I don't think you need to lock it.

    It allows people to put these atrocious acts into context.

    I think emotions are getting the better of us all.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    We can't dehumanize the enemy.

    We can say "They attacked civilian targets instead of military"

    Well we have to acknowledge the Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima

    We can say that they were meant to break the enemy's morale but our actions presumably were no more justified than theirs.

    If we dehumanize the enemy we destroy our own ability to be called human.

    I believe Kyp Duroun is a man who by all standards of government would be called "sane" for his actions. His actions are perfectly in context for someone who is waging a war on an agressor who has shown no mercy to his people or his lifestyle.

    By wartime standards Kyp is a loyal officer.

    However he is also commiting crimes against humanity and playing to win a war which means wasting lives senselessly in order to take more lives.

    Kyp will lie, cheat, steal, murder, and destroy to win the war.

    That's what war entails.

    If Kyp Duroun had a female counterpart in SW literature it would probably be Bria Tharin. She stole money, led men to die on false pretext, and dealt the Star Wars equivalent of crack cocaine to fund her expeditions.

    It helped destroy the Empire and her targets were slavers/murderers/crimminals...heck the people Bria betrayed were smugglers!

    but I think Bria was wrong nontheless.

    just understandable.

    We need to understand our enemy and turn the other cheek...certainly stop further atrocity...but once we hate them.

    Any action is justified.
  17. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2001
    star 5
    Listen to this guy, we must. Very wise he is indeed.
  18. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    By wartime standards, Kyp is not a "loyal officer." Not by any sane stretch of the imagination. Who is he loyal to? Not the Republic. He pretty much despises it, and mistrusts most non-Jedi. He's not loyal to Luke either. Kyp's loyalties lie solely with Kyp.

  19. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Charlemagne, are you saying we should do nothing?
    We should just allow whoever did this to go without being punished?

    Please tell me I misunderstood.

  20. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    We need to respond justly and resolutely. As simple as that. And though I am an avid Democratic supporter, I support and whole-heartedly reinforce whatever actions Bush decides to take.

    Also, I continue to disagree with Kyp. The NR and jedi are in no way united in the same semblance as the US government and people of this country are right now to respond justly and resolutely.
  21. exar-tull Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 5
    i agree with gandolf the grey.
  22. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    You know when I first learned the news about what happened I reacted in outraged aggression saying "We should bomb the villians into oblivion." But then I realized that's exactly what Kyp is doing and feeling. This tragedy has helped me understand Kyp's motives just a degree more. I still don't fully agree with the extremes he takes as a guerrilla-Jedi, but I believe I understand how Kyp the man feels about things like this. That's atleast one good thing that came from it, though at such a horrendous cost.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to those that have suffered from these villians' attacks.
  23. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    I'm just wondering how the two have anything to do with eachother at all...

    JMA
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Simply Qui Wan (sorry for the late response, I had class today-I almost was afraid they were going to cancel school)...

    My opinion isn't we should do nothing
    My opinion is better phrased

    "There is nothing we can do"

    Which is in and of itself an exaggeration of the situation but one I think whose directness should be weighed against the anger people are feeling.

    The terrorists directly responsible for this atrocity (I'll get to subsidary acessories later) are dead.

    To not put too fine a point on it, they are plane pizza. Melted goo and shattered bloodthirsty spots on the pavement.

    If you go in for that sort of thing (I acknowledge it) they are not only beyond our power but very likely in a place where they will suffer what they've done by people who feel the same way they do....

    For potentially all eternity.

    The other parties involved if any prove to exist (we know really so little at this point) we certainly could drag out in the streets and beat to death, build a minature of the building and ram them with the wright brothers plane filled with gas cans into it....

    or otherwise inflict some of the poetic justice United States G.I. Joes inflicted upon Nazi SS officers held captive after the discovery of concentration camps that weren't "cleaned off" (Nazis were woudned and handed to prisoners to kill, bayonets were handed to one decapitate him, one soldier simply lined up all the prisoners and mowed them down with a machine gun)

    The question however becomes is that the most productive thing to do in this scenario?

    Certainly I think steps should be taken to deal with any surviving offenders to capture them and prevent them from doing further harm but no ammount of horror we inflict is going to bring back the dead or even scare people into not doing more of this.

    History has proven the effects cause quite the reverse (Israel and Britain's war with terrorism has proven while "taking action" is the popular thing to do...it only breeds ten men for every dead that dies no matter how much of...scumbag...they were in life).

    Now this scenario deals only with men directly responsible...imagine what would happen if we dealt directly with entire NATIONS on this scale?

    Form your own opinion, I simply ask you to look at it from that perspective.

    Also there is the question of quality of life

    My Catholic school I grew up in and holds the finest memories of my childhood and the safest place (even moreso than my house). When I visited it a few months ago I discovered a security camera....

    The cause of course was Columbine and I actually have had nightmares about it.

    The assumption that someone in my HOME would possibly be of the mind to carry a weapon or want to do such violence.

    Under Siege was a bad movie but I liked Denzel Washington's point if not the melodrama behind it....what happens when we surrender our freedoms for "security"?

    And does this surrender merely create more rebels to crush?

    My general thoughts.

    The link of course between Kyp and the Terrorists is that people sympathize with Luke because they have not suffered tragedy and cannot relate to teh Yzzumng Vong attack.

    Which is not true.
  25. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    CNN:"In another development, law enforcement sources said the United States intercepted two phone calls after the Tuesday attacks between members of al Qaeda, the terrorist network sponsored by suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden. In those conversations, the individuals discussed hitting two targets, the sources said."

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