"IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AMERICA YOU MUST HATE IT"

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by thegreatyoda, Jul 10, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Either way it is their right to critique what they see and fight for changes where they see they need to be made.

    As with every freedom, there are limits. If they simply seek to influence the democratic process, that is their right. If they seek to circumvent that process by violent means, or means which infringe upon the rights of others, they are not within their rights.

    I'm curious, is the only prescribed way of changing the constitution adding amendments? Can the constitution itself be changed?

    Adding Amendments is only neccessary when you're changing the Constitution. The two are one and the same.
  2. DarksiderGeorge Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2002
    star 2
    "Jirin, you are absolutely correct!! Patriotism has gotten out of control and out of hand. It is my belief that nationalism and patriotism is the barrier to elevating humanity above its weakened state! Only in a true global community can we escape our species specific problems."

    This was the original post that was on the most unpopularly "locked" patriotism thread. I hope that you, Lord Bane will unlock that thread and allow those open minded individuals to state their case without personal attacks and baseless accusaions.
  3. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    EDIT: OOPS wrong thread [face_blush]

    :D

    yeah the patriotism thread should be unlocked

    nobody was bashing the USA
  4. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    AJA, I agree with you. I was speaking of peaceful, nonviolent protest well within legal means.

    You can hate something and protest it without violence. If taken too far then it's counterproductive, in my opinion.
  5. Rogue_Squad_Leader- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2001
    star 4
    you cant all ways agree with your country thats crazy then you have 0 no freedom left what so ever, i disaggre with things that go on in amercia i find that it makes me a much larger patriot then any person who says "if you......"!!!!
  6. JediLeiaSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 2
    AJA

    Want to pay for me to move to another country? Want to secure a job and an apartment for me there as well? :p

    I'm not trying to be facetious here, but I've only ever lived in Canada when I was a year old, and as far as I can tell it's some better than the US, but not by much. And I don't ever want to step foot into a country where you can't drink the water, or eat out (Mexico). My main problem is that I don't really think any other countries on this planet are any better than the US.

    And to clarify, I hate the government, the current institution. It has been so far removed from the original theory that the people no longer have a say. That to me is the death of the Constitution, the death of everything this country once stood for.

    I told my father once that he had no right to complain if he hadn't voted, and that voting gives you the right to say how you feel about the government and the problems you see. Well, after the 2000 election, its pretty clear to me that voting is a useless activity that only makes the citizens feel as though we're being represented and have a say when we really don't. My father tried to give the speech right back to me, and I just said, "yeah, right. No one's vote counted last time, and I'm sure they won't count the next time."

    I know many of you don't agree with the above statements. I don't see the US as a democratic government anymore, and that's my major problem. There's no way that I can see to make a change myself, as I used to believe that was the whole reason the people voted, and its clear to me that voting no longer matters.

    I live in Los Angeles, an American city, and I love it. I recently went to Williamsburg, VA where I have family, and I love it there. It's a beautiful town with a rich history of people who wanted a government that would allows its citizens the freedoms they didn't have in England or wherever they came from.

    I look at the views of our forefathers, and I look at what we have today, and it's totally depressing; so far removed from the original intent. Corrupt beyond belief, the people of this country are so divided, how can change ever be instituted? Yes, slavery was a huge problem not to be overlooked in the US's past, but we moved through that, and things could and should be so much better than they are.

    I'm not sure anyone feels the way I do, but when I was younger I seriously considered a career in politics, and I used to be someone who cared very deeply about this country, but now, it seems as everything I believed has been disproven, so I stay here, in the hopes that other people feel as I do. SO, to sum up: AJA pays for me to move, or I stay, say "whatever" and opt out.

    All the best,
    JediLeiaSolo
  7. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    You cite the 2000 election as your justification for giving up on the country (which I assume is because it didn't turn out the way you wanted). Have you stopped to remember that the reason the whole mess happened is that the vote was so close no one could agree on who won? That's not a flaw in the system, that's a one-in-a-million coincidence.

    Additionally, I'd suggest you consider this: perhaps the system is working exactly as it should - which is to say it is expressing the will of the people - and it is the people who are corrupt.

    Eh?

    All of the turmoil we're dealing with today, IMO, can be traced back to the 1960s and 70s, and it's being perpetuated by the baby boomers who have been primarily running things since 1992. This is particularly difficult for those of us under the age of 30 or so, since we've had no choice in the matter, and have little power to do anything but sit around and watch the morally bankrupt cowards of the baby boom generation run the country into the ground. And of course, we're the ones who will be left to pick up the pieces.

    The answer is not to give up on the country, the answer is to recognize that for the last 40-50 years, the country has been betrayed and perverted by a bunch of spoiled rich kids who were too scared to give up their priveleged lives to go fight in Viet Nam. Once you start to recognize the mountain of lies they created to rationalize what boils down to simple cowardice on their part, it becomes very clear what's happened.

    The country was at war, and it was asking them to fight. They were scared. Since they were unwilling and unable to simply say "I'm too scared, I don't want to go", their only option was to reject the country itself, and thereby to assert that it wasn't worth fighting for. They had to systematically attack the country and everything it stood for to justify themselves, and they've had to keep doing it ever since. The ones who have the deepest need to continue it can't stop, because the alternative is too painful for them- to admit the truth, that they were simply spoiled cowards.

    Those of us who were born afterwards have little conception of this reality, since it's been obscured over the years, but it's still not resolved, and likely will never be until the baby boom has passed into rest homes. The question in my mind is whether there will be anything left to repair by the time that happens.
  8. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "a bunch of spoiled rich kids who were too scared to give up their priveleged lives to go fight in Viet Nam."

    You have to include Bush jr in that group as well, considering he used his Dad's political clout to get into the national guard(the 'champagne division' no less) to avoid going to Nam.

    "their only option was to reject the country itself, and thereby to assert that it wasn't worth fighting for."

    Nam wasn't fought for this country, Nam was fought for politicians. If I was alive back then, I'd have refused to fight too. Somebody attacks this country, and are a threat to us, like in WW2, and you won't have to draft me, I'll enlist, but You tell me to go to some far off land and fight some people who are no threat to us, and I'll tell you to go screw yourself.
  9. JediLeiaSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 2
    AJA
    You cite the 2000 election as your justification for giving up on the country (which I assume is because it didn't turn out the way you wanted). Have you stopped to remember that the reason the whole mess happened is that the vote was so close no one could agree on who won? That's not a flaw in the system, that's a one-in-a-million coincidence.

    Well, I didn't vote for Clinton, and I also didn't vote for Bush Sr., and I had no problem accepting their election and the legitimacy of it. I would have had no problem accepting Bush Jr. as President if there weren't so many issues, if the Supreme Court had not made such a divided decision that was a one-time-only deal, if honest citizens had not been turned away for being "convicted felons", the list goes on and on. One or two things I could have let go of, but the whole thing was such an embarrassing fiasco. When the outcome of an election hinges on one state, and that one state has so many conflicts that many of the votes are questionable, that to me is a flaw in the system.

    Additionally, I'd suggest you consider this: perhaps the system is working exactly as it should - which is to say it is expressing the will of the people - and it is the people who are corrupt.

    Eh?


    That's a really depressing thought. If so, how can you be patriotic in that situation, or are you comfortable with that level of corruption? (I don't mean this as an attack, it's a serious question.)

    All of the turmoil we're dealing with today, IMO, can be traced back to the 1960s and 70s, and it's being perpetuated by the baby boomers who have been primarily running things since 1992. This is particularly difficult for those of us under the age of 30 or so, since we've had no choice in the matter, and have little power to do anything but sit around and watch the morally bankrupt cowards of the baby boom generation run the country into the ground. And of course, we're the ones who will be left to pick up the pieces.

    I agree with you on this. The hippies of the 60's and 70's became the Yuppies of the 80's. I don't want to get into a "liberal vs. Conservative debate", so I'm going to work very hard to keep that out of it. Very little good came of the 80's, when you think back on those years, it was very much "Don't do <insert action here>" and "I should not go to jail for <insert same action here> because I don't remember specifically doing it, I was on drugs, I didn't think it would hurt anyone, I was listening to Hungry Like the Wolf". While all that is very tongue in cheek, its absolutely true. One of my clearest memories of the 80's was Reagan on the witness stand during Iran Contra answering every single question the same way: "I Don't Remember". I remember how much that scared me, and yet life just seemed to go on, because there was money to be made and coke to be sniffed.

    The answer is not to give up on the country, the answer is to recognize that for the last 40-50 years, the country has been betrayed and perverted by a bunch of spoiled rich kids who were too scared to give up their priveleged lives to go fight in Viet Nam. Once you start to recognize the mountain of lies they created to rationalize what boils down to simple cowardice on their part, it becomes very clear what's happened.

    The country was at war, and it was asking them to fight. They were scared. Since they were unwilling and unable to simply say "I'm too scared, I don't want to go", their only option was to reject the country itself, and thereby to assert that it wasn't worth fighting for. They had to systematically attack the country and everything it stood for to justify themselves, and they've had to keep doing it ever since. The ones who have the deepest need to continue it can't stop, because the alternative is too painful for them- to admit the truth, that they were simply spoiled cowards.


    Having a father who served in Vietnam, and has only ever spoken of it twice during my lifetime, I have to agree with this. I resent the fact that my father, w
  10. Jedi_Master_Orion Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    Hey the topic of this isn't entirly true
    I don't agree with America (my home counrty)
    taxing soda pop to lower child obiesety and I am a proud to be an American. I don't argee
    with the implementation of strict dress codes in our public schools but I fly an American flag in my front yard every day.
    [face_laugh] LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL [face_laugh]
    So come on guys lighten up and stop b*tching.
  11. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    Just a wee post to say that I totally agree with thegreatyoda's initial post.
  12. TheGhost Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    star 2
    Hey guys, I'm an American History major in college, and I wanna throw my two cents into this arcade.

    Why should anyone hate America after all we've done for the world?

    France needed our help in WWI and we answered the call, with a vengeance if i'm not mistaken.

    World War Two, we were attacked by Japan. Very big mistake, We showed them what we could do. But Roosevelt wanted the war in Europe. Once more France needed us, as well as Great Britain (One of the coolest nations on earth, for lack of a better term) France fell in two weeks, and they had the nerve to try and say that after all was said and done, they won the war.

    The French didn't do much aside from Partisan work, and the Fighting Free French, under Charles DeGaul did little to stop the German War Machine.

    So don't tell me that we never did anything for anyone, a lot of Europeans should thank us (And our Atlantic Brtheren, the British) for saving them from Hitler. That was the darkest cloud in Human History and they needed us and we answered the call. We saved the world.

    Vietnam wasn't our war, but once again the French needed our help, so we said, lets help the French. We lost the war. And the French still treat us like crap, after all we've done for them. Sure they helped us with our revolution. But our debt has been paid to them.

    Americans are allowed to be the way we are, oppinionated, loud, in your face, because thats the way this country has always been. It was founded by rebels, what do you expect.

    I feel that religion is really hurting the world right now. It seems as though these terrorist people are giving Islam a very bad and evil name. But of course they say that we(not just Americans but the entire Western World) are infidels working for satan.

    We believe that the Terrorists want the world to be like it was during the middle ages. This is what they want. No rights for women, everyone worships their god, no more technology, no more Jews, nothing that will make us who we are.

    Hitler wanted that, and look what happened to him, America destroyed him.

    Don't ever say that America has done nothing for the world. it just isnt true, Some people think this way because THEY elect the wrong leaders, and when they cant blame themselves, they blame us.

    We elected the wrong leaders but we did something about it, Nixon was impeached, remember?

    Lastly, I hate it when some people burn the Flag my Grandparents faught to preserve. My grandfather helped liberate a concentration camp in France (of all places, how do you like that?) and he treated a few survivors. You never see Americans burn a flag of their enemies. NEVER.

    My two cents, GOD Bless America.

    And lets hope I dont get banned. Because I have a fan-fic to write. :)
  13. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    Don't forget that other countries made significant contributions in all those events.
  14. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    I'm an American History major in college

    Really, cool!

    So, uhm, could you tell me which country helped US during the indenpendance war?


    France needed our help in WWI and we answered the call, with a vengeance if i'm not mistaken.

    Yeah after 2 years... *roll eyes*

    a lot of Europeans should thank us

    Remove a lot of Europeans and change it too French, Belgians, Germans, Danish, Dutch, Italians and Luxembourgers.

    so we said, lets help the French

    uhm no, Americans said, lets stop communism, because we believe in the domino theory and Autralia might be next *roll eyes*

    Hitler wanted that, and look what happened to him, America destroyed him

    Hitler did not wanted to be in the middle ages, he wanted that Germany would be an Empire just like in the past. (If he wanted to be in the middle ages why did he let scientist invent the V1,2 rockets and the jet engine?)

    America did not destroy him, he killed himself. Because Russians were sieging Berlin, there was no American or a western Ally near Berlin around that time.

    I hate it when some people burn the Flag

    oh yeah the Flag don't forget with the capital F.
    The most beautifull flag in the world, with colours red, white and blue which is an uncommon use of colourse and of course stars and stripes are never used in other flags as well.

    *roll_eyes*

    Don't forget that other countries made significant contributions in all those events.

    imzadi
    "History is written to please a group of people or a powerfull nation"

    So let them be. Australia, New-Zealand, Canada and other commonwealth countries were at least brave enough to fight both world wars since the beginning.

    But it's so sad that the history books hardly mentioned them. Historians are ruining history... :(
  15. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    All Super powers throughout history will hav been critised by lesser powers.

    I'm sure the British Empire was moaned at for its policies during the hieght of its power. A lot of "anti-British sentiment is still evident in the world.

    Live with it. Let it go over your head. And accept that people will always have differing opinions.
  16. Maveric Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I'm an American History major in college

    Really, cool!

    So, uhm, could you tell me which country helped US during the indenpendance war?


    France. Whoo hoo! Thank you LaFayette! I have little doubt that any American history major in college would not know that the US benefited greatly from the help provided us by the French.

    France needed our help in WWI and we answered the call, with a vengeance if i'm not mistaken.

    Yeah after 2 years... *roll eyes*


    And how is this different than France waiting almost three years to send the US aid?

    The US did not enter WWI because we were not threatend. President Wilson tried to establish peace between the Allies and the Central Powers up until we were forced to enter the war. It is not like we were sitting on our thumbs doing nothing, we were just not doing what you wanted us to do.


    So let them be. Australia, New-Zealand, Canada and other commonwealth countries were at least brave enough to fight both world wars since the beginning.

    As if they had a choice. As you say, they were commonwealth countries. With mandatory ties to their mother countries. That would be like saying the US went to war and praising Missouri for joining them.

    The majority of the citizens of the US LEFT Europe because they wanted a new life, free of the pettiness that has run rampant across that continent for well nigh on two millenia.

    But it's so sad that the history books hardly mentioned them. Historians are ruining history...

    Present day history is built on the destruction of the previous generations work. Historians do mention their contributions. I don't know what you are reading that tells you otherwise.
  17. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    We almost went to war with France after the war.
  18. Maveric Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Yes, in the Quasi-War during the French Revolution when they were impressing our sailors.
  19. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Vietnam wasn't our war, but once again the French needed our help, so we said, lets help the French. We lost the war. And the French still treat us like crap, after all we've done for them. Sure they helped us with our revolution. But our debt has been paid to them.

    And you say you're a History Major? You do know that you decided to help the French 3 years after the last French Soldier left Vietnam right?

    Vietnam was because of the Communism Paranoia, not because of the French. Don't twist facts please.

    As for the French winning WWII, well, let's see, they were on the side of the Allies, the Allies won the war, hence France won the war. It's pretty logical, what do you want them to say "hey, we lost the war!"?

    Besides, it was Russia that killed Hitler, you should read up on Stalingrad one of these days. You know, the turning point in the war ...

    As for you saving Europe, I believe Canada liberated my Country...

    The majority of the citizens of the US LEFT Europe because they wanted a new life, free of the pettiness that has run rampant across that continent for well nigh on two millenia.

    I could swear they left because of the "Richess" of the new World, you know, "anyone can make a fortune". That kind of thing, I doubt they left thinking "This country's so closeminded, let's go and live in America!"

  20. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    "As for you saving Europe, I believe Canada liberated my Country..."

    To discount the US role in the Western front is just as pathologically naive as an American discounting the importance of the USSR and the Eastern Front.

    They might have been Canadian soldiers, only because the US Army held 2/3+ of the front line, dominating the southern and middle portion of the advancing allied forces.

    Then again, you still rail against Allied bombing of Belgium before and during liberation. Of course, when you talk about that, it is 'American' bombing. Really, this is all very transparent.
  21. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6

    To discount the US role in the Western front is just as pathologically naive as an American discounting the importance of the USSR and the Eastern Front.

    True, I'm not discounting it, I'm just sick of people saying "we saved you", because, a) you didn't, if anyone, your grandparents did. b) The USA wasn't the only allied army on the western front, seems like you like to forget that. I didn't say the USA wasn't a major force, I'm just saying that the tanks that ran through our cities and pushed back the German army happend to be Canadian, so technically, they "saved" us.

    They might have been Canadian soldiers, only because the US Army held 2/3+ of the front line, dominating the southern and middle portion of the advancing allied forces.

    So? If the US Army had held the Northern portion of the front then Canada would have liberated Southern France, they can't do everything you know.

    Then again, you still rail against Allied bombing of Belgium before and during liberation. Of course, when you talk about that, it is 'American' bombing. Really, this is all very transparent.

    Huh? I'm kinda confused as to what you're talking about here...explain please.

    "this is all very transparent"

    There we go again "IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AMERICA YOU MUST HATE IT!"

    For Gawds Sake.
  22. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    "Vietnam was because of the Communism Paranoia, not because of the French. Don't twist facts please."

    He wasn't. He simply summed up a conflict which couldn't be summed up like that. The U.S. went down the path of war in Vietnam because we did help the french. Back in the late 40's when the U.S. had two options.

    1. Give Vietnam back to the people of Vietnam and allow Ho Chi Mihn to run the country. Ho Chi Mihn was a nationalist before he was a communist. The U.S. didn't understand this at all and went for option 2.

    2. Let the French back in after WWII and continue with their colony.

    When the U.S. chose option 2 the French and Vietnamese went to war and it was all over in 1954 I believe with Dien Bein Phu with the slaughter of the French army.

    So he is right that the U.S. made the wrong decision to allow the French back in. Things would have been different if they had picked option 2, because the Vietnamese HATED the Chinese and would have fought against communist coming into Vietnam, because Vietnam had fought with China for hundreds of years and I think it was Uncle who said "I would rather smell 5 more years of French ****, rather than another year of Chinese ****" or something to that effect.

  23. Maveric Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I could swear they left because of the "Richess" of the new World, you know, "anyone can make a fortune."

    So you remember discussing that with them, do you? You don't think that the turmoil that existed during the 17th, 18th, 19th & 20th centuries in Europe had anything to do with influencing people's desire to leave?


    That kind of thing, I doubt they left thinking "This country's so closeminded, let's go and live in America!"

    Yeah, no body left Europe for stupid reasons such as, oh, I don't know, religious persecution due to their not choosing to worship the official church religion.
  24. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    DARTHPIGFEET, that was not what he said, he literally said "we helped the French", which is not true, even letting them back in does not count as "help". He ment fighting because the French asked for help, which they did in 1954, but America didn't get involved then, that was later on.
  25. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    Sounds to me like you need to take a Vietnam class. We didn't help the French military wise. We never really left Vietnam after WWII either. We stayed over there in a small way and we were in on the Peace negotiations after Dien Bien Phu. The Ike administration had some very strict concessions on the peace agreement and that was because of the fear of Communism.

    We were watching from 1954 all the way up to 1960 when we started sending in a steady ammount of advisors into Vietnam trying to help out the Diem regime in the South prepare for conflict with the Communist North.

    Oh and helping the French comming back into Vietnam was helpful in furthering future conflict. If we had told the French to stay the hell out and go home which we were well within our rights to do since we had taken over the Vietnam area with the help of Vietnamese fighters. The other authority still in Vietnam after WWII was the Japanese who became good allies with the U.S. in keeping the peace in Vietnam and keeping the French elite still in the country in check.

    However Truman thinking he had to reward an allie during WWII gave back France it's colony, and hense war broke out. It was when the French came back in that North Vietnam under Uncle Ho officially became Communist because the Communist party was the only government in the world listening to Ho who wanted all foreigners out of this country.

    The Vietnamese don't like outsiders and don't like Outsiders telling them what to do and allowing the French in set us on a path of war and this is fact.

    I would suggest a good book on Vietnam called The Sacred War by William J. Duiker.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.