"IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AMERICA YOU MUST HATE IT"

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by thegreatyoda, Jul 10, 2002.

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  1. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    I know it's off topic but i just thought i'd add that my Grandad was in Berlin at the end,and he is English.

    Your correct in saying that Russia was the biggest force in Berlin at the time,but there was a fiew soldiers from other Nations !!!
  2. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2

    If we had told the French to stay the hell out and go home which we were well within our rights to do since we had taken over the Vietnam area with the help of Vietnamese fighters.


    As far as I know, when the second nuclear bomb hit Nagazaki, Vietnam was still under Japanese control, with the exception of a few French commandos (helped by Vietnamese soldiers) still resisting in a few spots in Laos. I've heard of no American soldiers involved in this area... do you have any reference?

  3. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Your correct in saying that Russia was the biggest force in Berlin at the time,but there was a few soldiers from other Nations

    I was wrong, my apologies.

    IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AMERICA YOU MUST HATE IT

    I blame Bush for that one. With his famous
    "If you're not with us, you're against us" speech.

    I watched CNN a bit today and they were talking about schröder(sp?), the host said that schröder was against the US attacking Iraq and he immediatly called it anti-US.

    Just because we don't agree with you
    that does not mean we're against you.

    You should get that idea out off your head.

    (this is an attempt to bring us back on topic)
  4. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Olivier


    The OSS was running ops during the late 1940s in Viet Nam. I think the first American killed there was in 47 or 48. He was a member of the OSS. I can get more information to you if you like later in the day.
  5. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    Yep the OSS were in Vietnam training Vietnamese freedom fighters, and they were highly effective. When the war was over the Japanese who were still in Vietnam didn't leave right away and became an excelent police force in Vietnam for the next few years. However they were rather brutal and during the war had allowed many of the French to retain high public offices to keep the peace.

    The war was over before the OSS could be used better but they did send report after report to Washington telling them that Ho was not a communist and a democratic election should be held in the country and let these people govern themselves. Washington ignored those.
  6. Ociredor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    I don't understand why other countries think that were arrogant just because we take pride in our country. How come when we do it its called "jingoism" but when they do it its patriotism?

    Look I know the US does some bad things, and I don't agree with everything the goverment does. But this is still my home, and I am still proud to live here. And I should be able to show my appreciation for my homeland without being labeled as closed minded.
  7. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    You think your better than me?
  8. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    I don't understand why other countries think that were arrogant just because we take pride in our country. How come when we do it its called "jingoism" but when they do it its patriotism?

    a) My country seems to be an exeption to this then, I can wear a T-shirt, "Belgium sucks f*****' ass" and nobody would even notice.

    b) I dislike all forms of Nationalism and Patriotism to be honest. A country is just a piece of land. Being proud of a load of dirt, well, IMO it's stupid. I don't like the Irish or the Hungarian nationalist attitudes either

    c) People view Americans as arrogant in their patriotism because they say "America is the best country in the world" etc etc. saying "I like America" or "I like living in America" would be a whole lot less "arrogant".

    meh.

    Down with Nationalism!
  9. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    A country is just a piece of land.

    If that's the case, why are there so many countries on so few 'pieces of land'? Or, if that's the case, then my folks own a country: they have a piece of land they like and call their own.

    What makes a 'country', IMO, is a specific set of ideals behind which the people who live within it believe in, stand up for and will die to protect. If it was just a piece of dirt, why would anyone care if their country was invaded by another and changes were made in how things are done? If China invaded England, why should they care? They still live on the same 'piece of land', don't they? No... it's much more than dirt within boundaries.

    That said, I never say "America is the 'best'". I do say "America is where I love to live". And I know this because I am moving to Canada, for many reasons which I had to think long and hard over. And until I made that decision, I never realize just how much I like living here. The pang of sadness I felt over the fact that I am leaving was patriotism: simple love for one's country...It's ideals, it's way of doing things. I see nothing wrong with having it, and loving one's country does not automatically mean you hate all others, nor especially that you hate the PEOPLE who live in all others.
  10. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6

    What makes a 'country', IMO, is a specific set of ideals behind which the people who live within it believe in, stand up for and will die to protect.

    Tell that to the Republic of Congo.

    If it was just a piece of dirt, why would anyone care if their country was invaded by another and changes were made in how things are done?

    That's Nationalism, and in my opinion, stupid. Did the French really believe in an ideal during the 100 year war? I think not, then why did they fight huh?

    If China invaded England, why should they care? They still live on the same 'piece of land', don't they? No... it's much more than dirt within boundaries.

    That's a stupid question.

    That said, I never say "America is the 'best'". I do say "America is where I love to live". And I know this because I am moving to Canada, for many reasons which I had to think long and hard over. And until I made that decision, I never realize just how much I like living here. The pang of sadness I felt over the fact that I am leaving was patriotism: simple love for one's country...It's ideals, it's way of doing things. I see nothing wrong with having it, and loving one's country does not automatically mean you hate all others, nor especially that you hate the PEOPLE who live in all others.

    True, but that was the general American attitude to the outside world that I was describing NOT you in particular.
  11. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    That is the general AMerican attitude towards the rest of the world Paellion, and its sad. Personally all of these patriotic displays here in America make me sick to my stomach. Patriotism fosters the us vs them mentality. The cycle of violence will never end until people can actively look at the causes of this xenophobic hatred of his neighbours and fellow denizens of this planet.
  12. eclipseSD Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2002
    star 5
    That's a stupid question

    I think it is arrogant of you to decide what is 'stupid'.
  13. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Why is it stupid, GAP? You said a country is just a piece of dirt. If that be true, then no one should ever care if someone else comes in and makes changes as to how things are run on their 'piece of dirt'. Obviously that would not be the case, or people wouldn't fight back so voraciouly when invaded.

    Patriotism fosters the us vs them mentality.

    I find it sad that some people twist patriotism to mean hatred and opposition, but I believe that is exactly what people are doing. Patriotism has never meant hatred for others. Why can't one love one's country without being accused of hating or being against the rest of the world?

    If that were the case, I could never love anything without being accused of hating everything else that is differernt from or not the thing I profess to love, such as my family, my cats, my fiance, my job or anything I could possibly love and care about.

    Utterly ridiculous.
  14. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    I agree with GAP


    I'm glad we're kind off back on topic :D
  15. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Why is it stupid, GAP?

    Why would the people of China fight against invaders? Certainly not because of their great governement or the ideals it stands for? No, they do so because the people who make the laws in the country decide to do so, why do they hate the invaders? Well, because they think they should make the rules for thier home and not some governement on the other side of the globe. It used to be petty family struggels, e.g. WWI. You think that was fought because of ideals? ha!

    You said a country is just a piece of dirt. If that be true, then no one should ever care if someone else comes in and makes changes as to how things are run on their 'piece of dirt'. Obviously that would not be the case, or people wouldn't fight back so voraciouly when invaded.

    Exactly, their piece of dirt. For some reason people think it's important. Not for the ideals behind the piece of dirt though, I think it's more of a "it's mine and you can't have it" thing.

    I find it sad that some people twist patriotism to mean hatred and opposition, but I believe that is exactly what people are doing. Patriotism has never meant hatred for others. Why can't one love one's country without being accused of hating or being against the rest of the world?

    You can love ones country all you wish, I just think it's stupid. Excuse me. And it does foster the us vs. them mentality, ever watched an international football game (soccer)? Why do you support your own country? For the ideals behind it? ::rolleyes::

  16. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Why do you support your own country? For the ideals behind it? ::rolleyes::

    No because I'm from that country and I support my fellow countrymen...

    Why can't one love one's country without being accused of hating or being against the rest of the world?

    Simple patriotism is getting out off hand, if you love your country just say it. But don't exaggerate like saying it's the best country in the world etc.

    That's bad and that leeds to be accused by others
  17. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2
    DARTHPIGFEET & Maveric

    Thanks for the info about the OSS: the document I had were not very precise concerning that point, but what you said confirms what I thought: a presence in the form of OSS is not what I would call tak[ing] over the Vietnam area, which was my point: there was not a sufficient US force in Indochina to impose what was called "trusteeship" (hence my reaction to Darthpigfeet's which we were well within our rights to do ). This is one of the reasons why Roosevelt recognised in 1945 that this was "a matter for French determination": from this site

    On April 3, 1945, with President Roosevelt's approval, Secretary of State Stettinius issued a statement that, as a result of the Yalta talks, the U.S. would look to trusteeship as a postwar arrangement only for "territories taken from the enemy," and for "territories as might voluntarily be placed under trusteeship." By context, and by the Secretary of State's subsequent interpretation, Indochina fell into the latter category. Trusteeship status for Indochina became, then, a matter for French determination.

    (There is however no doubt in my mind that the behaviour of the french governement in this affair was a failure)
  18. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    There is however no doubt in my mind that the behaviour of the french governement in this affair was a failure.

    You will get no disagreement from me on this one.
  19. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Well, because they think they should make the rules for thier home and not some governement on the other side of the globe.

    That was my point.

    Exactly, their piece of dirt. For some reason people think it's important.

    As I said, and you kinda did to as quoted above: "If that be true, then no one should ever care if someone else comes in and makes changes as to how things are run on their 'piece of dirt'." That's why it's important. You can't control that which you don't possess.

    I think it's more of a "it's mine and you can't have it" thing.

    Give me your house and all your possessions then, if something simply being "mine" is so bad.

    And it does foster the us vs. them mentality, ever watched an international football game (soccer)?

    What should people do..cheer all sides equally? Maybe we should just outlaw international sports..no, make that all sports, since they're all based on Us vs. Them. Then no one will have to choose a side or witness anyone's 'stupid' loyalty to their hometeam.

    Why do you support your own country? For the ideals behind it?

    Yes.
  20. Ociredor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    America is more than just a government. Its the people too.
  21. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    And it does foster the us vs. them What should people do..cheer all sides equally? Maybe we should just outlaw international sports..no, make that all sports, since they're all based on Us vs. Them. Then no one will have to choose a side or witness anyone's 'stupid' loyalty to their hometeam.

    You clearly missed the piont of that post, BTW, the piece you quoted right after it, this:

    Why do you support your own country? For the ideals behind it?

    was still part of the football game question, so you're saying you support your national football team because of the ideals behind your country?

    No, you support them because they happen to be from the same place as you. Same with Nationalism. It's an example.
  22. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Ok, so I read the post wrong. Sue me, I thought we were talking about patriotism and nationalism, not soccer.

    Actually...

    No, you support them because they happen to be from the same place as you.

    Well duh. The same place as me, a country who's ideals I support. My answer still stands.

    Pleh. I can't believe we're trying to demonize loyalty.

    I'm gonna go wave my flag now.
  23. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    People cheer for their national teams because they represent the best that particular country has to offer in the context of that contest.

    Patriotism is completely and totally different.
  24. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    For those wondering why Americans are so patriotic I offer my opinion:

    America is a land of immigrants. From the four corners of the Earth people migrate here. With little in common they arrive here searching for something, something their previous homeland didn't have. Something they hope(and most times do) to find in America.

    We don't have the history of other countries. We don't have the pomp and circumstance of other countries. All we have is each other and the flag that unties us.

    Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore;
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
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